Greatest Skater all time = Bobby Orr?

[TopT]

I m going with Bure here

 

[Psycho Papa Joe]

About 10 years ago in a beer league game we noticed during warmups there was an old guy on the other team with post skates like that. We all laughed, and then he put up a hat trick against us.

If he had a decent pair of skates, he would have scored 6

I still remember my Phil Esposito signed Bauer tube skates, my first ever pair. Wish I still had them, so my son would realize how good he has it, LOL

 

[Bear of Bad News]

That's your problem, you can really only compare Orr to his peers the rest is nostalgiac guess work. No one actually knows how he would fair if he played today. It's an ongoing argument, and will continue to be, but in my opinion Orr wouldn't even come close to dominating the way he did back then if he played today. The league as a whole skates so much better and is so much better conditioned it's hardly comparable. Not only that but the depth and quality of talent today dwarfs the 60's and 70's when it was primarily an all-Canadian league with
so many less people to choose from.

I can play against a D level and look like an amazing skater but put me against A level competition and suddenly I don't look so hot. The eye test doesn't work but we do know hockey has evolved so much since when Orr played so I don't see how someone can essentially close the books and say someone who played 35-40 years ago was the best skater ever. It doesn't work for me anyways.

Read the sticky in this forum. For those of you who are too lazy to go and do it:

A reminder that this forum is not the place for "Evolution of Hockey" threads, where people who have experienced the "blinding flash of the obvious" come to the conclusion that all players today are better than any players in history, and make implications that Guy Lafleur wouldn't be able to crack an NHL roster today.

In this forum, the history of the sport is to be respected.

 

[Bear of Bad News]

And as for this:

Players of the past are worthy of admiration but this section tends to go way overboard with that admiration in my opinion.

If someone don't like the rules of this section, they are free to take their business elsewhere.

 

[Big Phil]

That's your problem, you can really only compare Orr to his peers the rest is nostalgiac guess work. No one actually knows how he would fair if he played today. It's an ongoing argument, and will continue to be, but in my opinion Orr wouldn't even come close to dominating the way he did back then if he played today. The league as a whole skates so much better and is so much better conditioned it's hardly comparable. Not only that but the depth and quality of talent today dwarfs the 60's and 70's when it was primarily an all-Canadian league with
so many less people to choose from.

I can play against a D level and look like an amazing skater but put me against A level competition and suddenly I don't look so hot. The eye test doesn't work but we do know hockey has evolved so much since when Orr played so I don't see how someone can essentially close the books and say someone who played 35-40 years ago was the best skater ever. It doesn't work for me anyways.

There's a huge hole in your theory. Don't be offended, because it's the same hole that everybody has who makes the claim you did that everything pre-2005 is inferior and "easy".

I think most of us will agree that the game is faster today than in 1970. The players are bigger too. But you are forgetting one thing. If the common player in 2011 is faster than the common player in 1970 then why wouldn't the superstars of 1970 (Orr) improve as well? In other words, with the rule changes and lack of obstruction in the NHL today Orr would still be hands down the best defenseman in the NHL and would be the best rusher. Nobody does what he did. Nobody even TRIES it anymore. Players are scared to carry the puck on a penalty kill and skate behind their own net. Orr would still do this to an extent.

In conclusion, imagine Orr in 1970 with better skates, better training and better conditioning. He still gets to carry his hockey sense and anticipation to 2011 but his speed is even better. I guess we'll never totally get rid of this train of thought that everything came easier back in the day. I was on the boards here a month ago when someone claimed that the Ottawa Senators made the playoffs in 1997 because it was "easier" to do back then. I didn't realize 14 years ago was already considered irrelevant in some eyes.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Bobby Orr

The thread is about the best skater not the fastest.

Comparisons have been made across eras and positions, so I will break things down accordingly.

Skating includes various elements. Some of the more important ones are. Speed with and without the puck, forward, backward and lateral speed and movement, turning speed and radius, acceleration from a standstill or slow pace, in all directions.

The best skater watching hockey since the early mid 1950's was Bobby Orr.

Compared to forwards. There are many forwards that have great straight ahead speed. But none could or can match Bobby Orr when it came to skating backwards especially if you add various degrees of difficulty - skating backwards angling left or right. Most d-men have a weak side in this regard. Orr did not.

Fast wingers. Yvan Cournoyer was explosively fast from the RW but Orr caught him from behind on a breakaway.. On the other hand Cournoyer was not that fast from the LW. His first step from the left wing and body positioning to take a pass was not equal to what it was from the RW. This is true for all wingers - weaker from one wing, and is one of the reasons why they do not play center. Conversely Orr was equally fast and explosive from either wing, across the ice or up the middle.

Fast centers. Actual speed and efficient speed. Ideally a center has both but few do, Dave Keon, Henri Richard, Sergei Fedorov being the three that had the best blend and were equally proficient to each side, great acceleration. Conversely Bobby Orr had a shorter turning radius than all three and moved better on skates than all three - the ability to dance thru traffic, create openings and accelerate thru them. Orr had a distinct advantage.

D-men. Basically a comparison to Paul Coffey since the others especially the modern era, post 1990 do not bring the skating variety to the rink that Coffey and Orr brought.

Straight ahead it is hard to choose. All the other elements, Orr had an advantage. Better lateral, from each side, backwards, plus a smaller turning radius.

 

[LeBlondeDemon10]

What about Guy Lafleur?

Ah, thank you. I'd say Orr, Coffey, Bure, Lafleur, Gainey, Hull, Fedorov and Kharlamov to name a few. Cournoyer is a great pick too.

 

[shazariahl]

No one crucify me or anything, but I actually thought Coffey was a better skater than Orr. It was about the only thing he was better at, but there it is. Both were amazing though.

Coffey just had such a smooth, effortless glide to him though, that it was almost magical to watch.

 

[HabsByTheBay]

There's a huge hole in your theory. Don't be offended, because it's the same hole that everybody has who makes the claim you did that everything pre-2005 is inferior and "easy".

I think most of us will agree that the game is faster today than in 1970. The players are bigger too. But you are forgetting one thing. If the common player in 2011 is faster than the common player in 1970 then why wouldn't the superstars of 1970 (Orr) improve as well? In other words, with the rule changes and lack of obstruction in the NHL today Orr would still be hands down the best defenseman in the NHL and would be the best rusher. Nobody does what he did. Nobody even TRIES it anymore. Players are scared to carry the puck on a penalty kill and skate behind their own net. Orr would still do this to an extent.

In conclusion, imagine Orr in 1970 with better skates, better training and better conditioning. He still gets to carry his hockey sense and anticipation to 2011 but his speed is even better. I guess we'll never totally get rid of this train of thought that everything came easier back in the day. I was on the boards here a month ago when someone claimed that the Ottawa Senators made the playoffs in 1997 because it was "easier" to do back then. I didn't realize 14 years ago was already considered irrelevant in some eyes.

Imagine Bobby Orr with 40 years of advancement in regards to the techniques of knee surgery.

 

[begbeee]

Coffey had a very flat grind on his skates, didn't he?

IIRC he wore skates of size little smaller than he needed.

 

[Psycho Papa Joe]

IIRC he wore skates of size little smaller than he needed.

I think he was a size 9 or 10 and wore skates that were size 5 or 6. He said it allowed the skate to become part of his legs, rather than be footwear. I tried the same thing in order to improve my skating and ended up with blisters from hell, LOL!

 

[Psycho Papa Joe]

Imagine Bobby Orr with 40 years of advancement in regards to the techniques of knee surgery.

He would have faced Gretzky and possibly Lemieux. That would have been incredible. With the medical technology of today, he would likely have had a 20 year career. Just incredible what he might have accomplished with another 10 healthy years tacked on to what he already did accomplish. Would Potvin or Robinson have even sniffed a Norris?

 

[Hardyvan123]

Read the sticky in this forum. For those of you who are too lazy to go and do it:

Seriously what's the problem with the argument he was making? (and I'm not trolling here either)

If guys want to make the argument that Orr was the best skater ever, which is the question in the OP, and use the main basis of his dominance to his peers, then some context in evaluation seems to shed light on the topic not detract from it IMO.

The quote that you attributing does not go to say that Orr couldn't play in the NHL today or anything but does try to shed some light on the importance of context in the discussion IMO.

in fact the offending quote came after this was posted in post #26

"Irrespective of era, Bobby Orr's skating is the best I have seen." which surely opens the door to some context or am I off base here?

Back to the original question Coffey was the most graceful and best skater that I have seen and Bure was pretty close in terms of excitement but Coffey if he wanted to could have out skated everyone on every shift and just played "keepaway" which he would often due then set up a goal.

 

[nik jr]

If it's a comparison to his peers, it's Bobby Orr, and then probably Paul Coffey.

The thing about Orr's skating is, I'm not convinced that it was THAT fast in terms of top speed, compared to his peers. Oh, it may still have been the fastest of its day, I'm just not sure Howie Morenz and Bobby Hull weren't even more dominant speed-wise.

However, I think his skating "skill" was unparalleled. The acceleration, the turning, knowing where to go. I realize that once we go down this road, we are in a grey area as to what counts as part of his "skating skills" and what counts as other skills, such as stickhandling, anticipation, and hockey sense.

But yeah, my gut says Orr.

i am not sure morenz was even the fastest player of his era.

montreal forum had speed contests regularly and morenz was tied with babe siebert, jimmy ward, russell oatman and gizzy hart for fastest lap time (17s). skaters carried the puck.

in 1928, hec kilrea won $400 for breaking that record. montreal gazette said kilrea's mark (16 2-5) was "liable to stand for a long time." i am not sure what 16 2-5 means. possibly 16 2/5 or 16.25.

in late december of 1927, babe siebert lost control of the puck early in the lap, but still tied the record of 17s. montreal gazette said siebert "lost control of the puck for a time just after the start, otherwise he would have smashed the record by a good margin."

 

[Michael Farkas]

I think he was a size 9 or 10 and wore skates that were size 5 or 6. He said it allowed the skate to become part of his legs, rather than be footwear. I tried the same thing in order to improve my skating and ended up with blisters from hell, LOL!

I believe he also had two pairs of laces on each skate and needed to be cut out of his skates after every game.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Very Interesting

i am not sure morenz was even the fastest player of his era.

montreal forum had speed contests regularly and morenz was tied with babe siebert, jimmy ward, russell oatman and gizzy hart for fastest lap time (17s). skaters carried the puck.

in 1928, hec kilrea won $400 for breaking that record. montreal gazette said kilrea's mark (16 2-5) was "liable to stand for a long time." i am not sure what 16 2-5 means. possibly 16 2/5 or 16.25.

in late december of 1927, babe siebert lost control of the puck early in the lap, but still tied the record of 17s. montreal gazette said siebert "lost control of the puck for a time just after the start, otherwise he would have smashed the record by a good margin."

Very interesting post. Comparisons to recent ASG and skills competitions would add a perspective although carrying the puck was not always part of the test.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

Seriously what's the problem with the argument he was making? (and I'm not trolling here either)

If guys want to make the argument that Orr was the best skater ever, which is the question in the OP, and use the main basis of his dominance to his peers, then some context in evaluation seems to shed light on the topic not detract from it IMO.

The quote that you attributing does not go to say that Orr couldn't play in the NHL today or anything but does try to shed some light on the importance of context in the discussion IMO.

in fact the offending quote came after this was posted in post #26

"Irrespective of era, Bobby Orr's skating is the best I have seen." which surely opens the door to some context or am I off base here?

Back to the original question Coffey was the most graceful and best skater that I have seen and Bure was pretty close in terms of excitement but Coffey if he wanted to could have out skated everyone on every shift and just played "keepaway" which he would often due then set up a goal.

As I recall, he also played "giveaway" often.

 

[Hardyvan123]

As I recall, he also played "giveaway" often.

Yes he did as he wasn't the best player defensively but his skating prowess still stands.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

Yes he did as he wasn't the best player defensively but his skating prowess still stands.

No question, one of the best skaters the NHL has ever had.

 

[Canadiens1958]

NHL Skills -No Puck

i am not sure morenz was even the fastest player of his era.

montreal forum had speed contests regularly and morenz was tied with babe siebert, jimmy ward, russell oatman and gizzy hart for fastest lap time (17s). skaters carried the puck.

in 1928, hec kilrea won $400 for breaking that record. montreal gazette said kilrea's mark (16 2-5) was "liable to stand for a long time." i am not sure what 16 2-5 means. possibly 16 2/5 or 16.25.

in late december of 1927, babe siebert lost control of the puck early in the lap, but still tied the record of 17s. montreal gazette said siebert "lost control of the puck for a time just after the start, otherwise he would have smashed the record by a good margin."

Found the NHL Skills data - players were not required to handle the puck.

http://www.rauzulusstreet.com/hockey/nhlallstar/allsuperskills.htm

Factor in that carrying the puck requires controlled skating especially in turns and the difference is open to discussion.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

I think he was a size 9 or 10 and wore skates that were size 5 or 6. He said it allowed the skate to become part of his legs, rather than be footwear. I tried the same thing in order to improve my skating and ended up with blisters from hell, LOL!

haha. as i recall, gretzky wore tiny skates too but couldn't go as small as coffey did.

as a kid, i once tried to squeeze into last year's skates after growing two sizes in a summer instead of asking my parents to buy me a new pair and it wasn't even physically possible. what would coffey and gretz have had to do to that leather beforehand to even get their feet in?

 

[Big Phil]

No one crucify me or anything, but I actually thought Coffey was a better skater than Orr. It was about the only thing he was better at, but there it is. Both were amazing though.

Coffey just had such a smooth, effortless glide to him though, that it was almost magical to watch.

No, you aren't wrong if you suggest Coffey was a better skater than Orr. Some will disagree with you but as you've seen from my posts I consider it two horse race all-time between the two. Picking Coffey is hardly inaccurate.

He would have faced Gretzky and possibly Lemieux. That would have been incredible. With the medical technology of today, he would likely have had a 20 year career. Just incredible what he might have accomplished with another 10 healthy years tacked on to what he already did accomplish. Would Potvin or Robinson have even sniffed a Norris?

As we saw with Orr, when he was healthy he owned the Norris until 1975. That year Orr had 266 votes to 99 for Potvin. No one was even close. Only in 1976 when he was injured most of the season did someone else finally win and that was Potvin. As we saw in the 1976 Canada Cup, Orr was still the best defenseman in the NHL when healthy so it would be easy to assume that he'd rack up 100 point seasons well into 1980 which was the last Norris between Potvin/Robinson. And even then, would Carlyle (1981) or Wilson (1982) have beaten Orr for the Norris? It is scary to think what "could" have been with his dominance. Unfortunately we can only reward him for what he accomplished on the ice

 

[BobbyAwe]

hahaha,

but i got a harsh feeling of much of Bobby Hull was fishing stories, even Bobby said that bobby was better at skating than himself.

I agree, i'm pretty sure there were some Russians on that team who were as fast or faster than Hull. Hull wasn't even the fastest skater on his own team - Doug Mohns was.

 

[steveott]

Coffey had a very flat grind on his skates, didn't he?

There is a game called bandy. The size of a playing field (100 m x 67 m) is nearly 5 times the area of a hockey rink. That game is all about skating and speed.

Bandyplayers outskate hockeyplayers any day of the week. The very reason of that is the way their skates are grinded. They use very shallow hollows on their skates.. almost flat grinding.

The more shallow you grind your blades the faster you go (and overall - skating gets more and more tricky. I tried once.. it was like 1st time on the ice )

Next time take a look at Selanne while he is accelerating.. (the way he moves his legs). He is still fast because of that special grinding. He started as a bandy player!

BTW: There is a brand new skate-sharpening method called the flat-bottom V. It gives sharpness and glide in the same package.

And yes. Fedorov is the very best..

"He can stop on a dime," (Brian) Murray said. "He pivots. He turns. He can stop and go. That's why his game has been so outstanding overall. Not only is he fast up and down, but he has all those little quick things in tight quarters."

 

[Infinite Vision*]

Nobody was a better "all around" Skater than Orr.

Bobby Hull to me, had great acceleration and speed, but could not do the on the fly direction changes and agile things Orr could do on skates with the puck(Nobody could).

Cournoyer was also a phenomenal skater, but again, could not do what Orr could do while holding the puck.

Maybe not with the puck while changing direction because that factors in stickhandling skill as well. All three were very comparable overall skaters but in terms of top speed I honestly do think Hull and Cournoyer have him beat, possibly acceleration too, though agility I would give to Orr. This is based on what I have watched and heard from people who grew up watching them. I saw some games of Hull in the 60s and could not believe how fast he was on his own let alone compared to other players.

You mentioned irrespective of era Orr is the best skater ever, well... that is not very likely. In the absolute sense Fedorov, Coffey and Gartner have to take it in that order IMHO, no disrespect to Orr or anyone from that era.