Greatest Goalie of All time #1

[Jumptheshark]

Votes Sawchuck


look at the rubber the boy faced when he played on bad teams

Sorry--But Roy will forever be a cry baby in my opinion---when he was on a bad team he acted like a jerk

 

[AfroThunder396]

I think Brodeur might be the greatest statistical goalie ever. He'll likely break Roy's wins record, and it wouldn't surprise me if he takes a run at Sawchuk's shutout record. But there's more to evaluating goalies than just stats. Liars figure and figures lie. You have to look at how he played the game. Unless Brodeur goes on a remarkable a Vezina/first-team all-star/Conn Smythe binge, he'll fall short of the level of Roy/Plante/Sawchuk/Hall.

A gimmie for the HHOF? Yes. One of the top 50 players ever? Yes. And there are some things he does as well as any goalie ever. One of the best puckhandling goalies. One of the best at thriving under a light workload. And one of the best at meshing the butterfly and stand-up styles.

But will he ever be regarded as the best ever to play the game, from the perspective of strictly how he played the game? No.

I agree with you on many points, but I wasn't basing my pick on just stats. his style, loyalty, and downright determination make him my choice. However, I know that people will always make excuses about how he was a product of the system, he is overrated, and how he had a defense.

And can you please tell me how a goal that averages 68 games a season for 12 seasons has a light workload? Even with good defense, thats a ridiculous amount of games.

 

[Nalyd Psycho]

I think Brodeur might be the greatest statistical goalie ever. He'll likely break Roy's wins record, and it wouldn't surprise me if he takes a run at Sawchuk's shutout record. But there's more to evaluating goalies than just stats. Liars figure and figures lie. You have to look at how he played the game. Unless Brodeur goes on a remarkable a Vezina/first-team all-star/Conn Smythe binge, he'll fall short of the level of Roy/Plante/Sawchuk/Hall.

A gimmie for the HHOF? Yes. One of the top 50 players ever? Yes. And there are some things he does as well as any goalie ever. One of the best puckhandling goalies. One of the best at thriving under a light workload. And one of the best at meshing the butterfly and stand-up styles.

But will he ever be regarded as the best ever to play the game, from the perspective of strictly how he played the game? No.

Brodeur was robbed of the Conn Smythe in 2003. Brodeur was the best player in the playoffs, but Gigure was more valuable to his team.

Alot of people will say the style made Brodeur, I say Brodeur made the style. Look at Minnesota, when a goalie gets hot, they're unstoppable, but without a hot goalie, they are very weak. That ability to never let in an untimely goal is the critical feature of any team that plays such a tight system. How can a coach be confident to play for the tie, if the goalie can't be relied upon to never let in a bad goal. Also. No matter who coaches New Jersey, Brodeur is consistantly excellent. For a goalie to be that consistant at that high a level, and when all is said and done, with more games played than any other goalie. (Unless he gets seriously injured, he'll likely shatter the record.) Puts him at the same level as Glenn Hall, if not higher.

That, and being responsible for breaking Canada's Olympic drought, is going to ensure a very strong legacy.

 

[Sens Rule]

I agree with you on many points, but I wasn't basing my pick on just stats. his style, loyalty, and downright determination make him my choice. However, I know that people will always make excuses about how he was a product of the system, he is overrated, and how he had a defense.

And can you please tell me how a goal that averages 68 games a season for 12 seasons has a light workload? Even with good defense, thats a ridiculous amount of games.

Hall played every single game for what 7 or 8 years? Plante and Sawchuk too played almost every game for 15 or so years in the 70 game NHL. Brodeur is very impressive. He is one of the best goalies ever. We will see how great Brodeur will be without 2 stud defencemen in front of him for the next 3 or 4 years. If he continues to be up to the task and plays as well as he has through his whole career he may raise his stature even more. I personally think Brodeur would thrive if he was facing a ton of rubber every night. He is a winner and a great goalie. Still I can't place him above Roy or Hasek his peers and above the 3 great goalies of the 50's and 60's.

 

[Hedberg]

This is tough because the position has changed so many times.

 

[TVanek26*]

Hasek....if only he had a french/non-euro name he would be considered the most dominant player of all-time.

 

[loudi94]

This is tough because the position has changed so many times.

I agree. Could the keepers of today have been able to play in the 50's/60's with the technology of the past? Could the keepers of the past have been able to play in the 90's/00's with the technology of the present? Finally, the poor ******** of the 70's and early 80's who had to deal with watered down teams in the expansion era and the birth of the bigger, stronger, faster shooters, while their equipment stayed small.

 

[Nalyd Psycho]

Hasek....if only he had a french/non-euro name he would be considered the most dominant player of all-time.

The bigger problem with Hasek is the late start to his career coupled with injuries. Those 5 years rank up there with the best five year runs ever. But outside that time frame, things get weaker.

 

[God Bless Canada]

I agree with you on many points, but I wasn't basing my pick on just stats. his style, loyalty, and downright determination make him my choice. However, I know that people will always make excuses about how he was a product of the system, he is overrated, and how he had a defense.

And can you please tell me how a goal that averages 68 games a season for 12 seasons has a light workload? Even with good defense, thats a ridiculous amount of games.

Sorry, when I say workload, I'm talking shots faced per game. A lot of goalies want a good workload, say, 30 shots per game. Most would probably rather face 40 than 20. But as far as a goalie thriving when facing 20-25 shots per game, Dryden and Brodeur rate among the best ever. Their poise, concentration and focus enabled them to succeed when many would fail.

 

[God Bless Canada]

I agree. Could the keepers of today have been able to play in the 50's/60's with the technology of the past? Could the keepers of the past have been able to play in the 90's/00's with the technology of the present? Finally, the poor ******** of the 70's and early 80's who had to deal with watered down teams in the expansion era and the birth of the bigger, stronger, faster shooters, while their equipment stayed small.

More than any other position, goaltending usccess is based on your ability to thrive mentally. I'd say it's probably about 75 per cent mental. It's your ability to handle pressure. It's your ability to thrive in the big games. It's your ability to come up with the big save at the right time.

That's also why it's the hardest position to evaluate. We can probably project how a goalie will develop skill wise: his lateral movement, his rebound control, his glove and blocker speed, etc. But it's much harder to evaluate how the rest of his game develops. Does he have the work ethic? Does he have the killer instinct? Does he have that ability to make the big save when he really needs to? That's why it sometimes takes years for a goalie to reach his peak, and you often see goalies come out of nowhere.

 

[Bluesfan1981]

I can't see how it can be anyone but Plante or Sawchuk; Roy is overrated.

I voted Plante. Yeah Sawchuk played longer and had more wins and shutouts, but Plante clearly edges him out.

Led the league in Wins
Plante 5
Sawchuk 5

Led the league in GAA
Plante 9
Sawchuk 2

Led the league in Shutouts
Plante 4
Sawchuk 2

Led the league in Minutes played
Plante 1
Sawchuk 3

Career Wins
Plante 437
Sawchuk 447

Career Shutouts
Plante 82
Sawchuk 103

Career GAA
Plante 2.38
Sawchuk 2.51

Career Playoff Wins
Plante 71
Sawchuk 54

Career Playoff GAA
Plante 2.14
Sawchuk 2.54

Stanley Cups
Plante 6
Sawchuk 4

Harts
Plante 1
Sawchuk 0

Vezinas
Plante 7
Sawchuk 4

1st Team All-Star
Plante 3
Sawchuk 3

2nd Team All-Star
Plante 4
Sawchuk 4

All-Star Games
Plante 8
Sawchuk 11

 

[Nalyd Psycho]

Clearly? No. Very disputeable. But I too would have them 1-2.

 

[canucksfan]

I can't believe Hall only has one vote, I have him third on my list. He must be one of the most underrated players ever.

 

[Bluesfan1981]

Clearly? No. Very disputeable. But I too would have them 1-2.

True, I shouldn't have said clearly, it's close and a good case could be made for Sawchuk, but I still see Plante winning.


Add Clint Benedict, the most underrated goalie of all time. He was much better than Vezina, but the trophy was named for Vezina because of his premature death.

 

[Nalyd Psycho]

I can't believe Hall only has one vote, I have him third on my list. He must be one of the most underrated players ever.

Problem is, those who look to older players will put Sawchuk and Plante ahead of him, and the rest are biassed towards new players.

 

[hexrae]

My homer pick is Sawchuk. Good ol' peg boy

 

[Ogopogo*]

This is how I rate the greatest goalies :

*Note: I am still adding data to these ratings so, some goaltenders places may change as a result. This is not the 'final' list.


1 Glenn Hall
2 Patrick Roy
3 Terry Sawchuk
4 Ken Dryden
5 Dominik Hasek
6 Jacques Plante
7 Frank Brimsek
8 Martin Brodeur
9 Clint Benedict*
10 Bill Durnan
11 Cecil " Tiny" Thompson*
12 Tony Esposito
13 Bernie Parent
14 Walter " Turk" Broda
15 Roy Worters*
16 Chuck Rayner
17 Ed Giacomin
18 Georges Vezina*
19 George Hainsworth*
20 Johnny Bower
21 Grant Fuhr
22 Harry Lumley
23 Alex Connell*
24 Mike Liut
25 Lorne "Gump" Worsley
26 Ed Belfour
27 Charlie Gardiner
28 Rogatien Vachon
29 Billy Smith
30 Tom Barrasso
31 Miikka Kiprusoff
32 John Vanbiesbrouck
33 Roger Crozier
34 Charlie Hodge
35 Mike Vernon
36 Normie Smith
37 Lorne Chabot*
38 Al Rollins
39 Don Edwards
40 Ron Hextall
41 Dave Kerr
42 Jose Theodore
43 Pete Peeters
44 Pelle Lindbergh
45 Jim Henry
46 Cam Ward
47 Bill Ranford
48 Olaf Kolzig
49 Harry Holmes*
50 Glenn "Chico" Resch

 

[arrbez]

This is how I rate the greatest goalies :

*Note: I am still adding data to these ratings so, some goaltenders places may change as a result. This is not the 'final' list.


1 Glenn Hall
2 Patrick Roy
3 Terry Sawchuk
4 Ken Dryden
5 Dominik Hasek
6 Jacques Plante
7 Frank Brimsek
8 Martin Brodeur
9 Clint Benedict*
10 Bill Durnan
11 Cecil " Tiny" Thompson*
12 Tony Esposito
13 Bernie Parent
14 Walter " Turk" Broda
15 Roy Worters*
16 Chuck Rayner
17 Ed Giacomin
18 Georges Vezina*
19 George Hainsworth*
20 Johnny Bower
21 Grant Fuhr
22 Harry Lumley
23 Alex Connell*
24 Mike Liut
25 Lorne "Gump" Worsley
26 Ed Belfour
27 Charlie Gardiner
28 Rogatien Vachon
29 Billy Smith
30 Tom Barrasso
31 Miikka Kiprusoff
32 John Vanbiesbrouck
33 Roger Crozier
34 Charlie Hodge
35 Mike Vernon
36 Normie Smith
37 Lorne Chabot*
38 Al Rollins
39 Don Edwards
40 Ron Hextall
41 Dave Kerr
42 Jose Theodore
43 Pete Peeters
44 Pelle Lindbergh
45 Jim Henry
46 Cam Ward
47 Bill Ranford
48 Olaf Kolzig
49 Harry Holmes*
50 Glenn "Chico" Resch

How did Mike Liut end up ahead of Ed Belfour?

Belfour has more all-star team appearances, and won the Vezina twice. He was steller in the playoffs with Dallas when they made two straight finals appearances (winning once), and had the longevity to become the second winningest goaltender of all time.

Maybe you put too much value on the single Pearson award Liut won. It seems like the Pearson is often awarded to the feel-good story, and not the best player (Wayne Gretzky blew away the competition and set a new NHL single-season points record that year, for instance).

 

[Ogopogo*]

How did Mike Liut end up ahead of Ed Belfour?

Belfour has more all-star team appearances, and won the Vezina twice. He was steller in the playoffs with Dallas when they made two straight finals appearances (winning once), and had the longevity to become the second winningest goaltender of all time.

Maybe you put too much value on the single Pearson award Liut won. It seems like the Pearson is often awarded to the feel-good story, and not the best player (Wayne Gretzky blew away the competition and set a new NHL single-season points record that year, for instance).

Liut also finished 2nd to Gretzky in the Hart balloting in 1981.

Their ratings are very close but, Liut finishes a hair ahead of Belfour because he had much more serious consideration for the Hart Trophy during his career. The gap between the two is very narrow, I am not saying Liut had a significantly greater career, he is just ahead by a nose.

Again, when I get the additional data I need, Belfour may end up ahead of Liut.


As an interesting side note: It seems that Leaf fans have the most difficulty with my lists. At least, I get more comments about Leaf players being too low on the lists than any other players.

 

[Sens Rule]

Liut also finished 2nd to Gretzky in the Hart balloting in 1981.

Their ratings are very close but, Liut finishes a hair ahead of Belfour because he had much more serious consideration for the Hart Trophy during his career. The gap between the two is very narrow, I am not saying Liut had a significantly greater career, he is just ahead by a nose.

Again, when I get the additional data I need, Belfour may end up ahead of Liut.


As an interesting side note: It seems that Leaf fans have the most difficulty with my lists. At least, I get more comments about Leaf players being too low on the lists than any other players.

Your list is good. But there are some things I question. Like Liut over Belfour. Curtis Joesph is not even on the list of top 50 goalies but Cam Ward is? One meiocre season as a back-up and one Conn Smythe and he rates higher than Joesph? Or a ton of other great goalies. To me Bill Ranford despite his heroics in 1990 and some great seasons is not as good as Joesph. Where is Andy Moog? He was a great goalie, was the finals goalie on a Cup team when Fuhr went down and led Boston to a finals appearance. If Chico Resch is on the list then Moog should be too as he was better then Chico. Though I have no problem with recognizing Chico, he was great but Smith was the playoff goalie on all 4 Cup teams.

Charlie Hodge was a good goalie but really on a list of top 50 goalies ever he rates 34th? I mean who many years was he even the top goalie on his team?

You are focussing too much on awards and Vezina winners (and co-winners that were back-ups) when it went to the lowest team Goals against average.

Belfour was a stud in Chicago and Dallas and Toronto. Joesph was a great playoff goalie even though he never won a Cup. That is as much on his teams as on him. In the regular season his record speaks for itself.

If you weight awards and all-star selections so highly you give too much weight to goalies on great teams and too much weight to goalies in the 6 and 12 team era. Also you weight a couple of great years over a great career if in those great years a goalie wins an award or 2.

 

[Jimmi McJenkins]

Right now Roy, but I believe that Brodeur will retire as the Greatest.

 

[Sens Rule]

Also Billy Smith 29th. I'd have him higher. With how Vachon rates he looks even more like a Hall of Famer. Put him in already!

 

[XploD]

46 Cam Ward

 

[Ogopogo*]

Your list is good. But there are some things I question. Like Liut over Belfour. Curtis Joesph is not even on the list of top 50 goalies but Cam Ward is? One meiocre season as a back-up and one Conn Smythe and he rates higher than Joesph? Or a ton of other great goalies. To me Bill Ranford despite his heroics in 1990 and some great seasons is not as good as Joesph. Where is Andy Moog? He was a great goalie, was the finals goalie on a Cup team when Fuhr went down and led Boston to a finals appearance. If Chico Resch is on the list then Moog should be too as he was better then Chico. Though I have no problem with recognizing Chico, he was great but Smith was the playoff goalie on all 4 Cup teams.

Charlie Hodge was a good goalie but really on a list of top 50 goalies ever he rates 34th? I mean who many years was he even the top goalie on his team?

You are focussing too much on awards and Vezina winners (and co-winners that were back-ups) when it went to the lowest team Goals against average.

Belfour was a stud in Chicago and Dallas and Toronto. Joesph was a great playoff goalie even though he never won a Cup. That is as much on his teams as on him. In the regular season his record speaks for itself.

If you weight awards and all-star selections so highly you give too much weight to goalies on great teams and too much weight to goalies in the 6 and 12 team era. Also you weight a couple of great years over a great career if in those great years a goalie wins an award or 2.

I am aware that the Vezina was really the Jennings trophy prior to 1982. I do NOT give Vezina credit to goalies before 1982.

Again, when I have the additional data entered into the system, you may find that some of the goalies you mentioned, move up.

I think one thing that people don't realize is how many truly dominant goalies there have been in NHL history. For a goaltender to be truly dominant for one season (or one playoff season, like Cam Ward) they can crack my 50 most dominant goalies list. A goalie with 3 dominant seasons is in the top 25. Again, there have not been that many dominant goalies in NHL history; that is why guys like Hall, Roy and the like stand out so much.

 

[Sens Rule]

I am aware that the Vezina was really the Jennings trophy prior to 1982. I do NOT give Vezina credit to goalies before 1982.

Again, when I have the additional data entered into the system, you may find that some of the goalies you mentioned, move up.

Why do you have Hodge so high? Just curious.