Greatest Forwards of All Time #3

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canucksfan

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Polska said:
You should add some more modern era players. Your list is pretty heavy on older era players, many modern era players are better than many ppl on your list currently. Consider adding the likes of Jagr, Brett Hull, Yszerman, Fedorov, Bure, etc.
This is the best forwards of all time not the best forwards recently. Jagr and Yzerman should be added soon but both of them are not better than anyone on that list. Brett Hull, Bure and Fedorov should not be added for a long time.
 

Ogopogo*

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KOVALEV10 said:
Yeah that's just stupid. Ogo.. I like your list but what about basing the best players of all time on the percentage of their team's goals they were in on every year. Would that be possible? Or something along the lines of that?

Good suggestion but, I am not sure that would be an accurate measure. It would tend to reward players for being on bad teams and penalize players on good teams.
 

Leaf Lander

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jagr had how many lack luster season from age 28 to 33?

and you all call him greater then many of the all tiem greats

shame shame

he was considered top 35 - 40 but his stalk dropped dramatically because of more then a few bad yrs during his peak!!!Such a mental lapse never occured to other all tiem greats thus they are ahead of him untill he can pull of 5 more great yrs!
 

Ogopogo*

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Leaf Lander said:
jagr had how many lack luster season from age 28 to 33?

and you all call him greater then many of the all tiem greats

shame shame

he was considered top 35 - 40 but his stalk dropped dramatically because of more then a few bad yrs during his peak!!!Such a mental lapse never occured to other all tiem greats thus they are ahead of him untill he can pull of 5 more great yrs!

How many of those all time greats have won 5 (6 after this year) scoring titles?

Jagr belongs as a top 15 player of all time.

Many all-time greats had many lacklustre seasons. Everything Messier did after 1994 was lacklustre.
 
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reckoning

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Ogopogo said:
Good suggestion but, I am not sure that would be an accurate measure. It would tend to reward players for being on bad teams and penalize players on good teams.

Last spring I started a thread here where I tried to figure out who was in on the highest percentage of their teams goals season by season

http://www.hfboards.com/showthread.php?t=139741

You would think it would favour players on weak teams, but guys like Gretzky and Howe had the highest mark year after year. Then again, Guy Charron had the top mark one season as well.
 

Ogopogo*

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reckoning said:
Last spring I started a thread here where I tried to figure out who was in on the highest percentage of their teams goals season by season

http://www.hfboards.com/showthread.php?t=139741

You would think it would favour players on weak teams, but guys like Gretzky and Howe had the highest mark year after year. Then again, Guy Charron had the top mark one season as well.

My question then becomes, what does it really tell us? It is interesting but, does it really prove anything?
 

pappyline

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Czech Your Math said:
GC = (.5 * G) + (.3 * A)

This gives goal-scorers more credit for goals, without taking away from playmakers.

If you adjust for relative scoring level of the league, Jagr is already in the top ten, and if you adjust for the 118 games he missed due to NHL strike/lockout, I think he's top five, and should easily finish his career at least #3 (even if he only plays another couple years).

Also, since after this poll, the voting may be quite competitive, perhaps an extra player (or two) can be added by deleting the player (or two) who got the fewest votes in the last poll (or last two or three). No sense on having players on there that no one is going to vote for, even if they are deserving (in the opinion of some at least).
Strongly disagree with dropping the player with the lowest votes. This would mean a player like Morenz would be dropped early even though some of the Howe voters (who obviously have a strong respect for hockey history) could vote for Morenz in later rounds.
 

God Bless Canada

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Ogopogo said:
How many of those all time greats have won 5 (6 after this year) scoring titles?

Jagr belongs as a top 15 player of all time.

Many all-time greats had many lacklustre seasons. Everything Messier did after 1994 was lacklustre.
First of all, Messier was in his early 30s after 1994. Jagr is 34 now. Messier also had a lot of wear-and-tear on his body by the time he was 33, thanks to six Cup wins, a seventh trip to the Cup final and two other visits to the conference final. To say the least, he had played a lot of hockey. The comparison between Messier and Jagr isn't apt.

Also, Messier was key in NYR upsetting Quebec in the first round of the 1995 playoffs, and he was excellent in 1995-96. If not for injury, he would have become the oldest player to score 100 points in a season. He nearly cracked the second all-star team, and finished second in Hart Trophy voting to Mario Lemieux.
 

Ogopogo*

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God Bless Canada said:
First of all, Messier was in his early 30s after 1994. Jagr is 34 now. Messier also had a lot of wear-and-tear on his body by the time he was 33, thanks to six Cup wins, a seventh trip to the Cup final and two other visits to the conference final. To say the least, he had played a lot of hockey. The comparison between Messier and Jagr isn't apt.

Also, Messier was key in NYR upsetting Quebec in the first round of the 1995 playoffs, and he was excellent in 1995-96. If not for injury, he would have become the oldest player to score 100 points in a season. He nearly cracked the second all-star team, and finished second in Hart Trophy voting to Mario Lemieux.

My apologies. Everything Messier did after 1996 was lacklustre.

His Jagr has accomplished more up to the age of 34 than Messier did. 5 scoring titles is something only two players in league history have exceeded.
 

God Bless Canada

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Ogopogo said:
My apologies. Everything Messier did after 1996 was lacklustre.

His Jagr has accomplished more up to the age of 34 than Messier did. 5 scoring titles is something only two players in league history have exceeded.

No. Messier accomplished more. The Hart/Pearson double in 1990 and 1992, the Conn Smythe in 1984, and most importantly, the critical role on six Stanley Cup champions. Messier also blended physical play into his offensive contributions in a way that few, if any, have matched in the last 25 years, and was an outstanding leader who could carry his team on his back for extended periods of time in the playoffs.

Ask anyone in the NHL which career they'd rather have, and they'd tell you they'd want Messier's. Better career, better player.
 

KOVALEV10*

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Leaf Lander said:
jagr had how many lack luster season from age 28 to 33?

and you all call him greater then many of the all tiem greats

shame shame

he was considered top 35 - 40 but his stalk dropped dramatically because of more then a few bad yrs during his peak!!!Such a mental lapse never occured to other all tiem greats thus they are ahead of him untill he can pull of 5 more great yrs!
Ugh that's just stupid. So many all time greats had off years during their peak. Think Lafleur who was the best player between 74-75 to 79-80 then his production dropped widely. Messier after 94, etc.
 

Hawker14

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i can only vote for players i've seen play, so i'll let the geezers defend howe and hull.

i vote for bossy as the 3rd best forward of all time; because of the players i've seen, he was.

gretzky, lemieux, bossy - that's my top three. lafleur was smooth, sittler was my fave, and mcdonald could score from anywhere, but bossy just produced, and produced, and produced.
 

James Ownz Harper*

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Hockey Outsider said:
Messier was a great player but wasn't close to Howe. He should come in at around #10-15, though.

Messier never led the league in goals. Howe did it 5 times.

Messier never led the league in assists. Howe did it 3 times.

Messier never led the league in scoring. Howe did it 6 times.

Messier won 2 Hart Trophies; Howe won 6.

Messier was a 5-time all-star; Howe was a 21-time all-star.

Messier was a top 5 scorer three times; Howe was a top five scorer twenty seasons in a row.

Howe was better defensively.

Both were excellent in the playoffs.

Howe wasn't playing the same time as Gretzky and Lemieux.

Messier has more points with less games.

Howe won 4 Stanley Cups. Messier Six.

Messier has more points

Messier is known as one of the greatest leaders is any sport... Howe isn't.
 

reckoning

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Ogopogo said:
My question then becomes, what does it really tell us? It is interesting but, does it really prove anything?
Technically, nothing really proves anything. It`s all just food for thought. One thing it showed was that Gretzky would`ve been the top scorer no matter where he played. On the other hand you can`t totally discount teammates either; it`s not a coincidence that Brett Hull`s top 3 goal-scoring seasons happened to be the 3 years when Adam Oates was on his line.

James Ownz Harper said:
Howe wasn't playing the same time as Gretzky and Lemieux.

Messier has more points with less games.

Howe won 4 Stanley Cups. Messier Six.

Messier has more points

Messier is known as one of the greatest leaders is any sport... Howe isn't.

- even if you take away Gretz and Lemieux, Messier doesn`t come close to beating Howe in any of those categories Hockey Outsider mentioned.

- Messier had barely more points in barely less games. The higher scoring rates of the 80s more than offset that.

- Ken Daneyko won more Stanley Cups than Bobby Orr; does that make him a better player?

Messier was great. Howe was better.

-
 

God Bless Canada

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Starshollow said:
Jagr & Forsberg are better than any of those players ever were.
Really? Messier at age 35 (with over 1,000 games and nine trips to at least the conference final) finished second to Lemieux in Hart Trophy voting in 1995-96. (Jagr and Forsberg had the most productive year of their careers in 1995-96). Bobby Hull had likely the best shot ever. Gordie Howe's the greatest combination of skill and physical play ever among forwards. Stan Mikita isn't far behind. Jean Beliveau is the best combination of size and skill not named Lemieux, and may be the greatest leader in the history of the game. Richard's maybe the greatest goal scorer ever, and coupled that with tenacity and an epic big-game mentality. Howie Morenz was hockey's first superstar. Phil Esposito is likely the best goal-scoring centre ever, outside of Lemieux, and one of the best leaders ever. Mike Bossy is the best goal scorer of the last 35 years, and like Richard, had that big-game mentality. Guy LaFleur had one of the best six-year stretches in NHL history, and was elite in every skill level.

But Jagr and Forsberg are better. Sure they are.
 

Czech Your Math

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Best scoring seasons

Best scoring seasons (adjusted for league scoring level) of the past 50 years, besides Gretzky & Lemieux:
(note- Goals Created = .5 G + .3 A)

Points
--------
Esposito
Jagr
Jagr
Esposito
Orr
Jagr
Esposito
Sakic
Esposito
Yzerman
Orr
Jagr*
Lindros*
Lafleur
Lafontaine
Selanne
Jagr**

Goals Created
-------------
Esposito
Jagr
Esposito
Jagr
Esposito
Jagr
Sakic
Br. Hull
Jagr*
Howe
Jagr**
Yzerman
Selanne
Orr
Lindros*
Lafleur
Lafleur

* strike season adjusted to full season
** current season adjusted to full season

Jagr has passed Bossy and Lafleur on the all-time goals list, and Jagr and Esposito are/were clearly the best scorers at their peaks (besides Gretzky & Lemieux).

You think if Jagr was playing on those great Canadien or Islander teams (instead of Lafleur or Bossy) that they wouldn't have won as many Cups??
 
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