Greatest Forwards #20

[GFS]

Born 1960-83

1. Wayne Gretzky
2. Mario Lemieux
3. Jaromir Jagr
4. Mark Messier
5. Joe Sakic
6. Peter Forsberg
7. Steve Yzerman
8. Teemu Selanne
9. Jari Kurri
10. Eric Lindros
11. Sergei Fedorov
12. Brett Hull
13. Pavel Datsyuk
14. Pavel Bure
15. Joe Thornton
16. Ron Francis
17. Jarome Iginla
18. Martin St. Louis
19. Paul Kariya

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[amnesiac]

gimme Sundin over Gilmour

 

[Weztex]

Of this list, Oates and Gilmour are the only ones I would consider for a top 100 players ever.

 

[canucks4ever]

It should be dale hawerchuk but unfortunately most of these deadpuck era fans never saw him play.

 

[wetcoast]

gimme Sundin over Gilmour

I like sundin alot and think that he gets under rated but Gilmour at his peak (both in the playoffs and regular season) was simply better and that's the difference for me.

Zetterberg is also getting clearly under rated here.

Incredible 2 way player with an extremely strong and consistent prime but not the jaw dropping counting stats of some of the other options.

 

[wetcoast]

It should be dale hawerchuk but unfortunately most of these deadpuck era fans never saw him play.

I saw Hawerchuk play his entire career but 2 things really hurt him in this poll.

1) Quite a sharp drop off in terms of overall production and offensive/overall value after the age of 25.

Sure he still put up points but his goal scoring really fell off a cliff.

2) His playoff resume is very Marcel Dionne like.

To be fair his Jets were hardly deep and well constructed teams and had to face either Calgary or Edmonton who were 2 of the top teams of the 80s in the playoffs.

 

[The List Of Jericho]

Of this list, Oates and Gilmour are the only ones I would consider for a top 100 players ever.

Criminally underrating Mats Sundin

 

[JustinCase]

Sundin was great, Gilmour was better.

Voted Killer.

 

[amnesiac]

I like sundin alot and think that he gets under rated but Gilmour at his peak (both in the playoffs and regular season) was simply better and that's the difference for me.

Zetterberg is also getting clearly under rated here.

Incredible 2 way player with an extremely strong and consistent prime but not the jaw dropping counting stats of some of the other options.

DG definitely gets the playoff performer edge, but Sundin put up a PPG over his whole career which was mostly in the DPE. Gilmour just under a PPG for his career, and played half in a high scoring era (83-94). Thats where I give Sundin the edge overall. Just more consistent.

 

[canucks4ever]

I saw Hawerchuk play his entire career but 2 things really hurt him in this poll.

1) Quite a sharp drop off in terms of overall production and offensive/overall value after the age of 25.

Sure he still put up points but his goal scoring really fell off a cliff.

2) His playoff resume is very Marcel Dionne like.

To be fair his Jets were hardly deep and well constructed teams and had to face either Calgary or Edmonton who were 2 of the top teams of the 80s in the playoffs.

In my opinion, Hawerchuk in a vacuum is a better player than Gilmour, but of course one played for Toronto and is a media darling.

 

[GlitchMarner]

In my opinion, Hawerchuk in a vacuum is a better player than Gilmour, but of course one played for Toronto and is a media darling.

Hawerchuk was more talented, but Gilmour was much better defensively. For a good portion of his career, Hawerchuk put up some poor plus/minus numbers relative to his own teammates. He never received any Selke votes.

It's a tough comparison. They were both damn good but in different ways. Comparing them is kind of like comparing Stamkos and Bergeron or something like that. The HOH board did rank Gilmour higher on the list of Top 60 Centres All-Time that it compiled, though.

 

[canucks4ever]

Hawerchuk was more talented, but Gilmour was much better defensively. For a good portion of his career, Hawerchuk put up some poor plus/minus numbers relative to his own teammates. He never received any Selke votes.

It's a tough comparison. They were both damn good but in different ways. Comparing them is kind of like comparing Stamkos and Bergeron or something like that. The HOH board did rank Gilmour higher on the list of Top 60 Centres All-Time that it compiled, though.

Hockey News ranks Hawerchuk higher. Hawerchuk was a better goal scorer, hes more dangerous one on one and on breakaways and the eye test just tells me he is flat out better than good ole dougie gilmour.

 

[amnesiac]

Hockey News ranks Hawerchuk higher. Hawerchuk was a better goal scorer, hes more dangerous one on one and on breakaways and the eye test just tells me he is flat out better than good ole dougie gilmour.

playoffs were a big part of Gilmour's legacy, though. I understand Hawerchuk unfortunately played for a bad team and only got past the 1st round a few times with WPG, but thats just how it is. Dionne gets knocked for the same reason, while playoff warriors like : Clarke, Messier, Sakic, and Yzerman will usually get ranked above him despite having inferior reg season numbers (PPG).

 

[snipes]

Pretty surprised Robitaille hasn’t gone yet

 

[SotasicA]

These should be multiple choice polls. Winner is going to get such a small portion of all votes, it's not representative of the boards' opinion otherwise. Majority could potentially absolutely hate the guy who wins.

 

[Weztex]

Criminally underrating Mats Sundin

Adam Oates
Top-10 assists : 1, 1, 1, 2, 2, 3, 3, 4, 4, 5, 6, 7
Top-10 points : 3, 3, 3, 7, 10, 10, 10
Top-5 Hart : 4
Top-5 Selke : 4
1 x 2nd AST

Doug Gilmour
Top-10 goals : 10
Top-10 assists : 2, 2, 5, 5, 8
Top-10 points : 4, 5, 7
Top 5 Hart : 5, 2, 4
Top-5 Selke : 1, 2, 5

Mats Sundin
Top-10 goals : 2, 8, 10
Top-10 assists : 10
Top-10 points : 4, 7
2 x 2nd AST

I have at least Oates, Gilmour, LaFontaine, Hawerchuk and Savard comfortably ahead of Sundin. I'm not sure what puts him ahead of guys like Alfredsson, Elias or Zetterberg.

 

[Hockey Outsider]

Adam Oates
Top-10 assists : 1, 1, 1, 2, 2, 3, 3, 4, 4, 5, 6, 7
Top-10 points : 3, 3, 3, 7, 10, 10, 10
Top-5 Hart : 4
Top-5 Selke : 4
1 x 2nd AST

Doug Gilmour
Top-10 goals : 10
Top-10 assists : 2, 2, 5, 5, 8
Top-10 points : 4, 5, 7
Top 5 Hart : 5, 2, 4
Top-5 Selke : 1, 2, 5

Mats Sundin
Top-10 goals : 2, 8, 10
Top-10 assists : 10
Top-10 points : 4, 7
2 x 2nd AST

I have at least Oates, Gilmour, LaFontaine, Hawerchuk and Savard comfortably ahead of Sundin. I'm not sure what puts him ahead of guys like Alfredsson, Elias or Zetterberg.

How about Modano? Sundin was mabye 5% more productive offensively (both had equally poor support from their linemates) but Modano was a much better two-way forward, and a much better playoff performer.

 

[Weztex]

How about Modano? Sundin was mabye 5% more productive offensively (both had equally poor support from their linemates) but Modano was a much better two-way forward, and a much better playoff performer.

Yes, that's why I said at least. My initial guts would be to rank Modano ahead of Sundin as well but I was too lazy to revisit his stats/achievements. As far as playoff go I do think Sundin is underated though.

 

[The List Of Jericho]

Adam Oates
Top-10 assists : 1, 1, 1, 2, 2, 3, 3, 4, 4, 5, 6, 7
Top-10 points : 3, 3, 3, 7, 10, 10, 10
Top-5 Hart : 4
Top-5 Selke : 4
1 x 2nd AST

Doug Gilmour
Top-10 goals : 10
Top-10 assists : 2, 2, 5, 5, 8
Top-10 points : 4, 5, 7
Top 5 Hart : 5, 2, 4
Top-5 Selke : 1, 2, 5

Mats Sundin
Top-10 goals : 2, 8, 10
Top-10 assists : 10
Top-10 points : 4, 7
2 x 2nd AST

I have at least Oates, Gilmour, LaFontaine, Hawerchuk and Savard comfortably ahead of Sundin. I'm not sure what puts him ahead of guys like Alfredsson, Elias or Zetterberg.

Sundin ended up being a PPG player for his career in a more dead puck era and carried some lame Leafs teams.

 

[GlitchMarner]

Adam Oates
Top-10 assists : 1, 1, 1, 2, 2, 3, 3, 4, 4, 5, 6, 7
Top-10 points : 3, 3, 3, 7, 10, 10, 10
Top-5 Hart : 4
Top-5 Selke : 4
1 x 2nd AST

Doug Gilmour
Top-10 goals : 10
Top-10 assists : 2, 2, 5, 5, 8
Top-10 points : 4, 5, 7
Top 5 Hart : 5, 2, 4
Top-5 Selke : 1, 2, 5

Mats Sundin
Top-10 goals : 2, 8, 10
Top-10 assists : 10
Top-10 points : 4, 7
2 x 2nd AST

I have at least Oates, Gilmour, LaFontaine, Hawerchuk and Savard comfortably ahead of Sundin. I'm not sure what puts him ahead of guys like Alfredsson, Elias or Zetterberg.

Sundin's Hart record doesn't look that great on paper, but he was a better player than his Hart record suggests and was certainly very valuable to his team.

He doesn't have the greatest Hart record because his team missed the playoffs during what may have been his best season (1997) and he was more of a consistent high-level player for a long time than a very high peak player, but few forwards have had primes that were as long and consistent as his.