Greatest 3rd line/grinder player of modern era

[silkyjohnson50]

Sami Pahlsson had an amazing season in '07....just saying

Pahlsson's 07 season was one of the best defensive seasons that i've ever seen from a forward, but that peak was a level that he really never maintained over a long period of time. He was still a good defensive forward, but he never again had that dominant "shut down everybody" impact.

 

[BubbaBoot]

I'd have to go with Bob Gainey.....hell, is he the only "grinder" in the HoF?

Always liked Holik too....

I think Michael Peca should be ranked fairly high.

Others not mentioned that were pretty good:
- Brian Rolston
- Craig MacTavish
- Dave Poulin
- PJ Axelsson
- Dave Reid
- Garnet Bailey
- Mike Knuble (started as a 3rd liner, worked his way up)
- Bob Gould
- Eric Nesterenko
- Kirk Maltby
- John Tucker
- Brian Skrudland

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

I don't think rolston should count as a grinder. He was usually a top 6 forward who was a great or penalty killer.

 

[MS]

Holik and Tikkanen (especially) played on scoring lines for the bulk of their careers.

Post-1967, my top 3 who played mainly on 3rd lines would probably be Gainey, Carbonneau, and Joel Otto. Kris Draper is right there as well.

 

[SidGenoMario]

Best grinder ever: Sidney Crosby

 

[gifted88]

Bob Gainey by a mile

Also Mike Keane deserves a mention, 3 cups with 3 different teams.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

I don't think rolston should count as a grinder. He was usually a top 6 forward who was a great or penalty killer.

Holik and Tikkanen (especially) played on scoring lines for the bulk of their careers.

Post-1967, my top 3 who played mainly on 3rd lines would probably be Gainey, Carbonneau, and Joel Otto. Kris Draper is right there as well.

nor peca. maybe he would have been a third liner if he'd played on a powerhouse team like the wings, but he certainly wasn't on the sabres or isles.

 

[Section337]

In ways, it seems to me that this is being treated as a team award. For example, what is the difference between a guy like Draper versus guys like Todd Marchant or Mike Greir other than the quality of the team for which he happened to play?

 

[overpass]

In ways, it seems to me that this is being treated as a team award. For example, what is the difference between a guy like Draper versus guys like Todd Marchant or Mike Greir other than the quality of the team for which he happened to play?

3rd liners on good teams become 1st or 2nd liners on bad teams. See Mike Peca. So if a player on a bad team can't crack the top 2 lines he probably isn't as good as some other guys.

 

[Section337]

3rd liners on good teams become 1st or 2nd liners on bad teams. See Mike Peca. So if a player on a bad team can't crack the top 2 lines he probably isn't as good as some other guys.

That does not make sense to me. This thread is talking about the prototypical 3rd line skills, but you are making a judgment based on their potential to have 2nd line skills?

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

3rd liners on good teams become 1st or 2nd liners on bad teams. See Mike Peca. So if a player on a bad team can't crack the top 2 lines he probably isn't as good as some other guys.

Good point. Bobby Holik is a great example. Best 4th liner in the league when NJ wins the Cup in 1995. Becomes a scoring line player in the late 90s and is repeatedly shut down in the playoffs as the team goes nowhere. Greater center depth (Arnott and Gomez) lets Holik slide down to third line, and he becomes perhaps the best 3rd liner in the league for a few years - a big part of the 2000 Cup and a legit Smythe candidate heading into the 2001 finals. Then the Rangers throw a ridiculous contract at him, expect him to be a top 6 player and he fails to meet expectations.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

That does not make sense to me. This thread is talking about the prototypical 3rd line skills, but you are making a judgment based on their potential to have 2nd line skills?

He means that a bad team (like the pre-lockout Rangers) will force a prototypical 3rd liner into a top 6 role if he's an elite enough "third liner."

 

[livewell68]

For me it would have to be Peca when he played in Buffalo. I'm sure he was used as a 1st, 2nd line option sometimes but he was one of the best shut down centers in the league.

 

[JaymzB]

The 88-89 Habs just might be the greatest collection of good-elite 3rd line players ever on one team:

Gainey
Carboneau
McPhee
Skrudlund
Keane
Ryan Walter (by this point, he wasn’t any more than a third line player)
Brent Gilchrist

 

[overpass]

A lot of clubs might have used Guy Carbonneau as a scoring line role. Montreal's depth allowed them to develop him on the 3rd line.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

A lot of clubs might have used Guy Carbonneau as a scoring line role. Montreal's depth allowed them to develop him on the 3rd line.

i don't know if it was depth, per se.

they basically had a good first line/excellent second line tweener (smith) and two really good third line centers (carbo and skrudland), didn't they? i think walter played a lot of wing. later, corson and courtnall were also guys drafted at center who played wing.

but it's true, carbo was one hell of a scorer in junior. he also did put up decent points in the NHL considering his role, especially in the playoffs.

 

[Rhiessan71]

Brian Noonan......





















...but only when Iron Mike was his coach

I swear that every time I see Mikey on TSN or something, I half expect Noonan to suddenly appear and serve him his coffee.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Niche Players

3rd liners on good teams become 1st or 2nd liners on bad teams. See Mike Peca. So if a player on a bad team can't crack the top 2 lines he probably isn't as good as some other guys.

Understand your point. Basically you have to back things up a bit.

Until junior NHL players are usually amongst the most talented. See Colton Orr and where he was drafted into the WHL. In the QMJHL Guy Carbonneau was a star scoring center who ran the team's power play from the point.

In junior the filtering begins but you still are faced with the fact that a team has certain age constraints. True even historically. Te 19-20m year old veterans get the minutes and put up point totals. This does not make them 1st or 2nd line players or prospects for the NHL.Often at the trade deadline when such players are traded to Memorial Cup contenders they are put in third line roles.

Post junior. There are players that upon leaving junior understand very well what their career potential is. Examples being Mike Keane and Brian Skrudland plus other non-drafted players.They target the third line niche that they are suited for, many with success.

You also see top draft picks or other drafted players drift to a third line niche. Two main reasons. Injury and the age advantage catches up to them.Playing as an "OLD" in the NHL is not an advantage at all whereas it is thru junior. Then you have the talented players who accept a third line role - examples Guy Carbonneau, Mike Peca. Bobby Holik.BTW what quality did Carbonneau, Peca and Holik share that made them special? Give you all until Sunday supper time to find the answer.

When the NHL had smaller rosters you had players who could play multiple positions and fill various roles at an acceptable level.These were the career third liners - Claude Larose, Jim Roberts, Bill Collins, Ron Shock, Glen Sather. For a few games they could even step up and play on the first or second line, but on a bad team they could not play first or second line minutes for any length of time. Simply their high end skills were not sufficient, mainly their skating.

 

[BubbaBoot]

I don't think rolston should count as a grinder. He was usually a top 6 forward who was a great or penalty killer.

You're probably right.

Somehow I equate 3rd liners as shutdown guys, tough, resilient and with good checking and skating skills. Rolston was one helluva PK specialist. He scored 16 SH goals in his last 3 seasons with the Bruins.

I really hated it when he left. The Bruins weren't tendering too many contracts right before the lockout. We also lost Mike Knuble (a huge mistake IMO), Sergei Gonchar and Sean O'Donnell, who had been playing great hockey at the time.

 

[VanIslander]

Tikkanen and Gainey were NOT third liners. Whether they should have been is beside the point. Carbonneau was, at times.

Good call on Holik and Draper. They were third liners.

Peca should have been a third liner on a great team but he was a 2nd liner in the NHL for the vast majority of his career (except for the cup run in Edmonton).

The most NHL playoff points (95) by a third liner is Tomas Holmstrom. The funny thing is the next 3rd liner on the list is also a modern Red Wing, Johan Franzen (72).

In terms of career regular season points, Verbeek and Dale Hunter were sometimes 3rd liners but played a lot of 2nd line as well. The most regular season points by a career 3rd liner in NHL history is by Butch Goring, who also was a playoff Conn Smythe winner.

 

[silkyjohnson50]

Tikkanen and Gainey were NOT third liners. Whether they should have been is beside the point. Carbonneau was, at times.

Good call on Holik and Draper. They were third liners.

Peca should have been a third liner on a great team but he was a 2nd liner in the NHL for the vast majority of his career (except for the cup run in Edmonton).

The most NHL playoff points (95) by a third liner is Tomas Holmstrom. The funny thing is the next 3rd liner on the list is also a modern Red Wing, Johan Franzen (72).

In terms of career regular season points, Verbeek and Dale Hunter were sometimes 3rd liners but played a lot of 2nd line as well. The most regular season points by a career 3rd liner in NHL history is by Butch Goring, who also was a playoff Conn Smythe winner.

Franzen really only played the 3rd line role for a couple of seasons. Ironically, it was an injury to Holmstrom that allowed Franzen to take a bigger role. As a result, he goes on a goal-scoring tear and the rest is history.

Holmstrom is a unique case. He's not what i'd consider a 3rd liner though. If i a had to label his career it'd have to go with "offensive zone" specialist. Since the lockout, he's basically always been on one of Detroit's top lines. He has rarely seen the ice without Datsyuk in the past 4 seasons. Whether it was Datsyuk-Zetterberg, Datsyuk-Hossa, or Datsyuk-Franzen, Holmstrom is almost always on Datsyuk's wing. The only time that he's lifted is when Detroit's attempting to defend a lead in the latter stages of the 3rd period. Which is what in part makes Holmstrom unique. He's been great in the offensive zone throughout his career, but he's such a liability outside of the offensive zone in recent years that he has to be protected by players like Datsyuk and Zetterberg, who are strong enough defensively to cover for him. He's too much of a liability to play the 3rd line role. Which is pretty funny to think about: He's not good enough to play on the 3rd line, but he's a regular on Detroit's top line. Obviously he's been a fixture on Detroit's power play since the days of Yzerman and Fedorov. And that's what Holmstrom is so great at and why he's had the career he's had.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

Tikkanen and Gainey were NOT third liners. Whether they should have been is beside the point. Carbonneau was, at times.

Good call on Holik and Draper. They were third liners.

Peca should have been a third liner on a great team but he was a 2nd liner in the NHL for the vast majority of his career (except for the cup run in Edmonton).

The most NHL playoff points (95) by a third liner is Tomas Holmstrom. The funny thing is the next 3rd liner on the list is also a modern Red Wing, Johan Franzen (72).

In terms of career regular season points, Verbeek and Dale Hunter were sometimes 3rd liners but played a lot of 2nd line as well. The most regular season points by a career 3rd liner in NHL history is by Butch Goring, who also was a playoff Conn Smythe winner.

i thought goring was the second line center on the isles dynasty, as well as behind dionne on the kings?

 

[seventieslord]

Yeah, I was going to say the same thing... Goring was top-20 in scoring a couple times, that's no 3rd-liner.

 

[VanIslander]

Those of you with stats can confirm what memory can't: Goring played behind the Trottier and Bourne lines during the dynasty years.

Granted Goring as a LA King may have been a 2nd liner, but as a dynasty Islander and Conn Smythe winner he was the third line center.

 

[seventieslord]

Those of you with stats can confirm what memory can't: Goring played behind the Trottier and Bourne lines during the dynasty years.

Granted Goring as a LA King may have been a 2nd liner, but as a dynasty Islander and Conn Smythe winner he was the third line center.

you called him a "career 3rd liner"...