Great Fight Debate - II

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LouJersey

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I'll start keeping notes as to who says what, but I hear it talked about on NHL network radio . Current players appreciate it when teammates stick up/fight for them.

I don't get the push back here. Players that play the team are speaking here. I posted an interview a ways back where three players said they would never target a player on Reaves' team. Has it happened? Sure. But if 90% of the league wouldn't take liberties vs the Knights and would vs the Wild doesn't that count for something? McQuaid wouldn't be deterred by anyone, but what about the rest of team? I don't know.
 

LSCII

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Actually he would, he could skate, had a good shot and could play D or F reasonably well. Try using a better arguments like Basil McRae or John Kordic. McSorely was only a few steps down from Tocchet as far as a tough guy who could play.

But you may feel Tocchet may not have a place in today's game either.

I'll take made up straw man arguments that nobody is saying for a thousand, Alex...

Rick Tocchet had well over 900 points for his career and was a .83 points per game player for his career. McSorley was a .37 ppg player. Those two were literally nothing alike. Tocchet could actually play, while McSorley got some secondary assists because he played next to Gretzky.
 

Fenian24

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I'll take made up straw man arguments that nobody is saying for a thousand, Alex...

Rick Tocchet had well over 900 points for his career and was a .83 points per game player for his career. McSorley was a .37 ppg player. Those two were literally nothing alike. Tocchet could actually play, while McSorley got some secondary assists because he played next to Gretzky.
Straw man argument for 2000. Position McSorely played for most of his career. What is defense. Meaning he would have lower PPG totals than a first line forward.
 
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Chief Nine

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And they are much softer without McQuaid this year. BTW last night McQuaid hit Maxi Pax in Vegas, Maxi, being maxi, acted tough but did nothing instead Ryan Reaves fought and beat Quaider, allowing Maxi to be the cowardly little punk he is which is his game. The "I hate enforcers and there is no place for fighting crowd" will argue against this and say it has no place and did nothing because realistically they just hate fighting and want ti gone so the Ice Capades version of hockey can be complete.

And like the only bad Godfather movie I am being pulled back into a pointless discussion with entrenched sides :banghead:

You're the only one fighting this imaginary battle against this non-existent "I hate enforcers and there is no place for fighting crowd"

Once again, I challenge you to find a post by anyone saying there is no place for fighting in professional hockey.

 
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KrejciMVP

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Straw man argument for 2000. Position McSorely played for most of his career. What is defense. Meaning he would have lower PPG totals than a first line forward.

by all means give us hockey with no drama no fighting that is lethargic most nights. Its great to fall asleep too. Sure I'll root for the Bruins but my excitement will be as lethargic as the product on the ice. yay 3 hours of skating around the ice, let me spend hundreds of dollars on that, it'll allow me to read more I guess.
 

BNHL

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The game is suffering minus the rough stuff,many nights I'm bored to tears. I was rarely bored during the BBB era or the Cherry years or the Miller/LB years. I believe intimidation is a reality,but then everyone started equalizing and it became a circus. Today's rules have p***yfied this NHL into a European model,and frankly it is much less entertaining.
 

RussellmaniaKW

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Straw man argument for 2000. Position McSorely played for most of his career. What is defense. Meaning he would have lower PPG totals than a first line forward.
to be fair, you're the one who brought up Tocchet in a discussion about McSorely
 

KrejciMVP

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The game is suffering minus the rough stuff,many nights I'm bored to tears. I was rarely bored during the BBB era or the Cherry years or the Miller/LB years. I believe intimidation is a reality,but then everyone started equalizing and it became a circus. Today's rules have *****fied this NHL into a European model,and frankly it is much less entertaining.

Maybe Vince McMahon should create the XHL instead of the XFL, imagine that
 

LSCII

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Straw man argument for 2000. Position McSorely played for most of his career. What is defense. Meaning he would have lower PPG totals than a first line forward.

Again, if you think those two should be mentioned in the same category, I don't know what to tell you. Regardless of McSorley's ability to play forward or d, he was a marginal hockey player. I mean shit, Greg Hawgood played both for Boston, and it's not like that made him a viable option for either spot. It just meant he wasn't good enough at either to secure a regular slot.
 

Fenian24

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by all means give us hockey with no drama no fighting that is lethargic most nights. Its great to fall asleep too. Sure I'll root for the Bruins but my excitement will be as lethargic as the product on the ice. yay 3 hours of skating around the ice, let me spend hundreds of dollars on that, it'll allow me to read more I guess.
Yup, just finished a 10 book series that would normally have taken 6 months did it in 3. So I guess bad hockey is good for literacy :dunno:
 

LSCII

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you mean besides the team that currently owns the Cup?

Did they win the cup because they fought and won every fight along the way, or is it because they outscored the other team? Washington has a ton of skill players. Sure they can play with a bit of nasty, but that's not really the argument here.
 
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Roll 4 Lines

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And they are much softer without McQuaid this year. BTW last night McQuaid hit Maxi Pax in Vegas, Maxi, being maxi, acted tough but did nothing instead Ryan Reaves fought and beat Quaider, allowing Maxi to be the cowardly little punk he is which is his game. The "I hate enforcers and there is no place for fighting crowd" will argue against this and say it has no place and did nothing because realistically they just hate fighting and want ti gone so the Ice Capades version of hockey can be complete.

And like the only bad Godfather movie I am being pulled back into a pointless discussion with entrenched sides :banghead:

Does this mean Gretzky was a cowardly little punk, too? And Brett Hull? and Kessel and Yzerman?

We all know Bobby Orr didn't let others do his dirty work for him. Neither did Howe, or Neely, or Tocchet, or Messier? etc.

At the time of the trade, I kinda thought it was cowardly for Gretzky to insist that Marty went to LA with him.

Does this diminish Gretzky's greatness at all? Or should it?
 

Fenian24

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Does this mean Gretzky was a cowardly little punk, too? And Brett Hull? and Kessel and Yzerman?

We all know Bobby Orr didn't let others do his dirty work for him. Neither did Howe, or Neely, or Tocchet, or Messier? etc.

At the time of the trade, I kinda thought it was cowardly for Gretzky to insist that Marty went to LA with him.

Does this diminish Gretzky's greatness at all? Or should it?

Hull, Kessel, Yzerman and Gretzky weren't dirty, yappy little punks like Maxi is. If you are going to slash and yap back it up. It drives me nuts when Marchand doesn't do it also.

The point I was making was a player like Reaves stood up for a perceived top end offensive player like Maxi because he was getting hammered by a tough D in McQuaid, the opposite of what so many of the "having that type of player doesn't do anything" crowd argue.
 

Chief Nine

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Hull, Kessel, Yzerman and Gretzky weren't dirty, yappy little punks like Maxi is. If you are going to slash and yap back it up. It drives me nuts when Marchand doesn't do it also.

The point I was making was a player like Reaves stood up for a perceived top end offensive player like Maxi because he was getting hammered by a tough D in McQuaid, the opposite of what so many of the "having that type of player doesn't do anything" crowd argue.

Are these separate groups now?

The "I hate enforcers and there is no place for fighting" crowd

The "having that type of player doesn't do anything" crowd

Just trying to follow along...
 
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NDiesel

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Right or wrong he and others feel responding cuts down on cheapshots they seem to take that as fact. Not sure if any actually believe it eliminates it but fighting back makes them feel it helps curb it.
I generally try to stay out of this thread because both sides just like to argue in circles, but I had to respond to this one:

If you or anyone has played hockey before then you would know that this is a true statement. It does have a mental affect as a skilled player when someone stands up for you or a teammate after a dirty or big hit. I've played the game, I've always been small and skilled (compared to my peers) and I can agree that having someone having your back makes you play bigger than you are.

The big argument these days are is it worth having a guy JUST to be that guy and I think it's an easy no. The games too fast for a lot of these guys and it's tough to not be a liability if you don't have foot speed.

Reaves might be closest to the last true enforcer in the game today. Now this year he's also scoring goals which is unusual for him, but for the Bruins personally I don't think we need to get another guy to help curb cheap shots. If Chara or Miller or even Backes can't curb them then I fail to see what adding another big guy in the lineup does.

Now give me a guy who can skate, is big and can be physical like Josh Anderson/Tom Wilson/Anthony Mantha and I'm all for it, but these guys require a HUGE overpayment. You have to draft them IMO if you want a guy in that mould, and their shelf life is still rather short as we see guys like Backes, Lucic, Simmonds, (we might add Benn to this list soon) start to wear themselves down over time.
 

Dr Quincy

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The problem is that those 'sources' are right in the 1970s and 80s. Now it doesn't matter because the league is not going to let anyone act like a policeman out there. Looch does anything in retaliation and he gets suspended or whatever. Until the league (which it probably will never do) goes back to allowing the players to police themselves on the ice, just having a tough guy isn't meaningful. Which is why you can have physical players, but they have to be able to score and pass and skate well too.
Yeah, no slug like Pat Quinn ever touched or with a cheap shot back in the pre-instigator rule days when Boston was the Big Bad Bruins...
 

DaaaaB's

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you mean besides the team that currently owns the Cup?
And there's already been an example in this thread of caps player taking a cheapshot and no one doing a thing about it. If you think they won the cup because of toughness than you're just flat out delusional.

There's not a team in the league that's anywhere close to being as tough as the 2011 Bruins.
 

Dr Quincy

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Jun 19, 2005
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And they are much softer without McQuaid this year. BTW last night McQuaid hit Maxi Pax in Vegas, Maxi, being maxi, acted tough but did nothing instead Ryan Reaves fought and beat Quaider, allowing Maxi to be the cowardly little punk he is which is his game. The "I hate enforcers and there is no place for fighting crowd" will argue against this and say it has no place and did nothing because realistically they just hate fighting and want ti gone so the Ice Capades version of hockey can be complete.

And like the only bad Godfather movie I am being pulled back into a pointless discussion with entrenched sides :banghead:
So, McQuaid hit Pac, even though he totally knew that Reaves was on Vegas and was one of the few guys who could beat Adam in a fight.

Yet, despite knowing this, Adam still decided to hit Max anyway and face the fight......

I'm sorry, what exactly was your point? Reaves deterred absolutely nothing?
 
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Dr Quincy

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by all means give us hockey with no drama no fighting that is lethargic most nights. Its great to fall asleep too. Sure I'll root for the Bruins but my excitement will be as lethargic as the product on the ice. yay 3 hours of skating around the ice, let me spend hundreds of dollars on that, it'll allow me to read more I guess.
So hockey only has drama if there is fighting?

Seems like you might want to watch a combat sport then.
 
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DaaaaB's

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I don't get the push back here. Players that play the team are speaking here. I posted an interview a ways back where three players said they would never target a player on Reaves' team. Has it happened? Sure. But if 90% of the league wouldn't take liberties vs the Knights and would vs the Wild doesn't that count for something? McQuaid wouldn't be deterred by anyone, but what about the rest of team? I don't know.
Once again, it does deter a lot of players but it doesn't deter the type of players who do most of the cheapshots. Why do you ignore that fact?

25 years ago the league was full of legit heavyweights and that never stopped Samuelsson, Lemieux etc from doing cheapshots. Just ask Cam Neely.
 

DaaaaB's

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The game is suffering minus the rough stuff,many nights I'm bored to tears. I was rarely bored during the BBB era or the Cherry years or the Miller/LB years. I believe intimidation is a reality,but then everyone started equalizing and it became a circus. Today's rules have *****fied this NHL into a European model,and frankly it is much less entertaining.
I'll admit I liked hockey better when it was rougher but if you guys can't appreciate the skill in hockey today then I'd say you're watching the wrong sport.
 
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Over the volcano

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So, McQuaid hit Pac, even though he totally knew that Reaves was on Vegas and was one of the few guys who could beat Adam in a fight.

Yet, despite knowing this, Adam still decided to hit Max anyway and face the fight......

I'm sorry, what exactly was your point? Reaves deterred absolutely nothing?
For mcQuaid sure - but how many players in the league are willing to have Reeves come after them if it’s the difference between making a big hit or just playing the puck. You and I both know McQuaid is the exception that proves the rule
 

BNHL

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I'll admit I liked hockey better when it was rougher but if you guys can't appreciate the skill in hockey today then I'd say you're watching the wrong sport.
I love playing it,but watching it just isn't the same as what I grew up with. BTW,most of Claude's time here I was bored shitless during the reg season.
 

DaaaaB's

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I love playing it,but watching it just isn't the same as what I grew up with. BTW,most of Claude's time here I was bored ****less during the reg season.
It is different for sure and I miss all the rough stuff. It's way faster and more skilled today tho so I like that about it. If I could change the game back to how it was I probably would but that's not gonna happen so I enjoy it for what it is.

I get my violence fix thru Boxing, MMA and Muay Thai Kickboxing anyhow.
 
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