Grade the new markets!

Kritter471

Registered User
Feb 17, 2005
7,714
0
Dallas
The North Stars had a Cinderella Cup run right before they were moved, but over that whole stretch of pre-move years, they weren't that successful. They made a two-round deep run when they got to Dallas, but didn't emerge as a true powerhouse until the 1996/1997 seeason.

Plus, in terms of franchise success, a Cup is not the be all and end all of on-ice results. I'd argue, as a young franchise, it's much more important to win regular season games consistently and have at least decent playoff performances (a la San Jose, Dallas, Minnesota) than win one Cup out of the blue, then revert to struggling. A Cup is a great booster shot, but without consistent regular season performances, your casual fan base becomes alienated.

Now, to argue that there is a difference between the potentials of moved teams (half-way San Jose, which took a good chunk of the North Stars with them, Dallas, Colorado, Phoenix) and pure expansion teams (Atlanta, half-way San Jose, Anaheim, Minnesota, Columbus) is true. To argue that there's a difference to fans, however, is not.

Your average fan in a non-hockey market won't spend hours justifying that the Jackets are new, lack cohesion and chemistry, and that's why they sucked at the beginning. They're just going to think they suck. Same with a team like Colorado and Dallas (or on the other end, Phoenix). They don't care that the pieces were there before the teams moved or that the franchise was a wreck anyways, in terms of Winnipeg. All they care about it current results.

What I do love about the grades, however, is that Dallas got A+ results in all three categories but is ranked fourth. Uh... if they did/are doing the best they can possibly do in each category, why are they not at the top of the list?

Edit: Whoops, someone just pointed out it's a "year they came into the league" list. It's not specified there, and I totally didn't catch it. Disregard last paragraph then.
 

ColoradoHockeyFan

Registered User
Feb 17, 2005
9,368
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Denver area
I disagree, both organizations had good teams right from the get go in the new market. I can't see how you can say that's irrelevant. It most definitely has an impact on the evaluation. They had a talent base for their franchises already established, which takes many years to build. That's what makes what Anaheim and Tampa have done so special. When evaluating the on-ice product, at least, Carolina, Colorado, Dallas, and Phoenix should not be in the same discussion as the others.
I think Colorado had an additional advantage as well, in that it was already a fairly established hockey market before the Avs even arrived... and not just at the NHL level. So it wasn't as much of a "new" market as the others... it was just the return of an NHL franchise (something Coloradans should have never lost in the first place).
 

nyr7andcounting

Registered User
Feb 24, 2004
1,919
0
How about because the guy didn't order them in terms of overall grade, but rather year that they came into the league? :help:
And where did he say that? Thought the whole point of grading them would be to come up with an order based on the grades to see who's best. Sorry I didn't do my research to figure out how they were ordered.
 

nyr7andcounting

Registered User
Feb 24, 2004
1,919
0
No offense, but it's obvious.
Yea, I remember off the top of my head weather Winnipeg moved to Phoenix before or after Quebec moved to Colorado. Point of the post was the grade all the expansion teams of the last period, so I'm thinking they'd be in order of best to worst. Get off your towers.
 

Bear of Bad News

Your Third or Fourth Favorite HFBoards Admin
Sep 27, 2005
13,511
26,944
Get off your towers.

I'm sorry that you didn't understand the ordering. I'm also sorry that, despite that fact that no one has yet been rude to you, you seem to think that we're all out to get you.

Just in case it comes up later, Stanley Cup winners are traditionally ordered in the order in which they are won, not necessarily in the order of quality.
 

Blackhawkswincup

RIP Fugu
Jun 24, 2007
187,086
20,532
Chicagoland
My mistake for not listing that it was order of entrance to that market. To me it was obvious but i see that it wasn't to most. I have fixed it. Now stop being rude to each other, I dont want this post gone. It is interesting read.
 

Clarence Beeks

Registered User
May 4, 2006
7,608
0
In the Deep South
And where did he say that? Thought the whole point of grading them would be to come up with an order based on the grades to see who's best. Sorry I didn't do my research to figure out how they were ordered.

He had to say that? You would have had to do reserach to know that? I mean, come on. The grades are in the parentheses after the team name; there is no "overall" grade.
 

Ted Hoffman

The other Rick Zombo
Dec 15, 2002
29,205
8,615
IB is having a heretofore unseen lack of desire to fully utilize those Admin powers. Leading us to ask... of course... does absolute power indeed not corrupt absolutely?




[run for cover]
:ipeace

thinking I don't have a desire to use my powers ...
 

Enstrom39

Registered User
Apr 1, 2006
2,174
0
www.birdwatchersanonymous.com
In your other posts you say that you have to look at the entire history in that market. So, let's look at their attendance compared to other teams over the period since they've come into the league and the “grades†you gave each team why don't we?

Team / your grade / average attendance / current arena capacity / former arena capacities
Dallas – A+ - 18,026 (18,532) (17,001)
Colorado – A+ - 17,941 (18,007) (16,061)
Columbus – A – 17,317 (18,136)
Minnesota – A – 18,403 (18,064)
San Jose – A- - 16,135 (17,496) (11,089)
Ottawa – B – 17,000 (19,153) (10,585)
Tampa Bay – B- - 16,434 (19,758) (10,425) (26,000)
Anaheim – B- - 14,267 (17,147)
Carolina – B- - 14,507 (18,730) (21,273)
Nashville – B- -14,449 (17,113)
Atlanta – B- - 14,835 (18,750)
Florida – C- - 15,585 (19,250) (14,696)
Phoenix – D – 14,442 (17,779) (16,210)

Way to nail the obvious ones with “A’sâ€, but you totally botched essentially everything below that, if you go merely by the logic you have stated. You gave Tampa Bay a "B-", the same grade you gave teams that average over 2,000 less fans per game.




So, what? The Avalanche have won two Cups and you give them an A+ for on ice product. Dallas has won one Cup and you give them an A+ for on ice product. They aren’t new teams, they’re relocated teams and they have both been bad more than they have been good. You should give them a B- based on your logic.


The above provides a more objective less subjective take on fans.
Here is a less subjective way to judge on-ice success. Percentage of playoff appearance seasons. Making the playoffs is a reasonable indicator of good season.

A+ 91% COL +2 Cups
A+ 85% DAL +1 Cup
A 75% OTT
B 67% SJS
B 50% PHO
B 44% CAR +1 Cup
B- 38% ANA +1 Cup
C 38% NAS
C+ 36% TBL +1 Cup
C 33% MIN
D 23% FLA
D 14% ATL
F 00% CLB

While I can think of objective measures of fan support and on-ice success I think "future in inherently vague and hard to measure in any strict sort of way. I could spin out rosy scenarios for most of the teams on this list.
 

Clarence Beeks

Registered User
May 4, 2006
7,608
0
In the Deep South
The above provides a more objective less subjective take on fans.
Here is a less subjective way to judge on-ice success. Percentage of playoff appearance seasons. Making the playoffs is a reasonable indicator of good season.

A+ 91% COL +2 Cups
A+ 85% DAL +1 Cup
A 75% OTT
B 67% SJS
B 50% PHO
B 44% CAR +1 Cup
B- 38% ANA +1 Cup
C 38% NAS
C+ 36% TBL +1 Cup
C 33% MIN
D 23% FLA
D 14% ATL
F 00% CLB

While I can think of objective measures of fan support and on-ice success I think "future in inherently vague and hard to measure in any strict sort of way. I could spin out rosy scenarios for most of the teams on this list.

I think anyone would be hard pressed to disagree with you on your methodology and conclusions for on-ice product. That's definitely the best way to measure that category. Nice job.

I should note that my analysis of attendance for quality of the fans could be better if it were done as an average percentage of total attendance, instead of raw numbers, but I'm a bit busy right now... Sorry.
 

Blackhawkswincup

RIP Fugu
Jun 24, 2007
187,086
20,532
Chicagoland
The above provides a more objective less subjective take on fans.
Here is a less subjective way to judge on-ice success. Percentage of playoff appearance seasons. Making the playoffs is a reasonable indicator of good season.

A+ 91% COL +2 Cups
A+ 85% DAL +1 Cup
A 75% OTT
B 67% SJS
B 50% PHO
B 44% CAR +1 Cup
B- 38% ANA +1 Cup
C 38% NAS
C+ 36% TBL +1 Cup
C 33% MIN
D 23% FLA
D 14% ATL
F 00% CLB

While I can think of objective measures of fan support and on-ice success I think "future in inherently vague and hard to measure in any strict sort of way. I could spin out rosy scenarios for most of the teams on this list.

That could be a good way to grade them but why would Phoneix get better grade then teams such as Ana, Car and TB given that they have never won a playoff series.
 

nyr7andcounting

Registered User
Feb 24, 2004
1,919
0
I'm sorry that you didn't understand the ordering. I'm also sorry that, despite that fact that no one has yet been rude to you, you seem to think that we're all out to get you.
The last guy was rude with his sarcasm. Like I said, sorry I didn't put a lot of thought into how they were ordered, just figured the guy meant to order them by how successful he thought the teams have been.

Just in case it comes up later, Stanley Cup winners are traditionally ordered in the order in which they are won, not necessarily in the order of quality.
Yea, unless the topic is which winner was the best
 

chiavsfan

Registered User
So, what? The Avalanche have won two Cups and you give them an A+ for on ice product. Dallas has won one Cup and you give them an A+ for on ice product. They aren’t new teams, they’re relocated teams and they have both been bad more than they have been good. You should give them a B- based on your logic.

Oh yeah? I believe the Avs have missed the playoffs ONE time in their 11 years. 8 Division Titles...couple of Conference Finals

The records arent too bad for Dallas either, since 1993, 1 cup, two cup appearances, 7 division titles.

Check the facts first my friend
 

nyr7andcounting

Registered User
Feb 24, 2004
1,919
0
The point about Colorado and Phoenix is a good one though. Maybe they shouldn't be on the list because they aren't exactly expansion teams. Colorado especially already had a very very solid group of players when they played their first game in Denver. They're the most successful on the list but aren't exactly an expansion team.

I think off the ice Ottawa and Minny are the most successful. But even those places already had NHL teams before the current ones arrived. On the ice I think the most successful would be Ottawa or Anaheim, although both have had some bad seasons.
 

coolguy21415

Registered User
Jul 17, 2003
9,285
0
Well if that's your position, then San Jose, Dallas and Carolina wouldn't count, either.

The point of the thread was to grade new markets, not strictly expansion markets. While I understand that the on-ice sucess can't be directly compared for the first several seasons, it's been long enough that the overall on-ice success can be graded over the long-term.
 

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