Goodenow has advised players not to

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NHLFanSince2020

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Feb 22, 2003
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Mayor of MacAppolis said:
Not true at all. Gary Bettman is carrying out the mandatge put forth by his employers, the NHL board of Governors. I would wager that he has the support of at least 75% of that board.

Who is Bob Goodenow answering to? Who's agenda is he pushing ahead with? Is he listening to the Mike Commodores and Pierre Dagenais?
I believe a majority of the players is not being represented. The heavy handed tactics of the leaders of the PA is to simply push their agenda and win; sense, logic and rationality be damned.

Players are told to go play in another continent far away from their families and to play for a lot less than they could make in the NHL with a cap; they are told to steal another guys job;
Owners are losing money and teams are being bankrupted;
Fans are constantly having their ticket prices increased;
Hockey programs across NA are no longer funded;

To hell with all of it the PA leaders say, we have an agenda.
 
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misterjaggers

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E = CH² said:
I think that this is a scare tactic and a pretty desperate one. I think Goodenow has been given the mandate to sign the best deal possible and get hockey going again.

Goodenow is not a fool, he knows that the longer this drags on, the harder it's going to be for teams to be profitable thus the players to be paid as much as they were. I'm sure he doesn't want to be remembered as the guy who made the NHL go down the crapper and made the players lifes more difficult for years and to be remembered as the guy who had it all and threw it away.

I don't want to consider the alternative that a guy who has shown he's been really good at what he does for the last 10-15 years can all of a sudden go completely dumb and stupid.

I say it's a negotiating ploy.
It is a negotiating ploy.Goodenow's testing the owners' resolve. He thinks they'll crack like they did in '94. He's re-fighting the last war.

That's how generals lose the next war: by thinking they can re-fight the last war.
 

Cole Caulifield

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Apr 22, 2004
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Steve L said:
I disagree, if he wanted the best deal possible, it would have been sorted before the season started and the players wouldnt have lost a cent in lost wages.

Its an ego thing, he doesnt want to be seen as a guy who accepted a cap.

They had to test the owners resolve first. I'm sure that the last NHLPA offer was a good starting offer to negotiate from for a good part of the owners. Maybe Goodenow hoped and thought they would fold again with such an offer or negotiate from there. That did not happen. The owners passed that test.

Now it's plan B for the NHLPA. Whatever that may be.

I'm sure both parties would like to get hockey going again under their conditions. But both parties disagree on what those conditions are so they're building up the pressure and try to see who is going to negotiate the best deal in the worst conditions (ie the 11th hour). I could be wrong though.
 

Cole Caulifield

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Apr 22, 2004
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CarlRacki said:
I agree that it's very likely a ploy, but don't discount emotion in this dispute. Fact is, while Goodenow is likely a very business-like fellow, the people he ultimately answers to - i.e. the players - are not. As the comments of many players over the past four months indicate, they are very much acting on emotion and that's a very dangerous thing. Their stubborness is going to cost them a season, a ton of money, in some cases a career and no doubt lots and lots of fans.
The idea that hockey players are more fan-friendly, accessible, grounded and regular Joe than professonal athletes from other sports is taking a big hit, IMO. Most of these guys don't know how good they've got it, but I suspect over the next eight months they're going to find out. Unfortunately, by then it may be too late to recover all their good fortune.

Maybe, I'm sure emotions were really high after the owners rejected the 24% deal. But it probably has settled down since. I don't think Ribeiro sitting at home because his wife just had their first baby is so high on principles that he wouldn't come back under a cap system. The guys playing in Europe have probably realized by now how good they have it in the NHL with the charter flights, money, overall conditions and familiar environment. I'm sure they're pissed, but at some point I hold the belief they'd swallow their pride and come back in a hurry.
 

jacketracket*

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Just a bargaining ploy, an attempt to counter some of the doom-and-gloom statements coming from Karmanos and others.
 

Cole Caulifield

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misterjaggers said:
It is a negotiating ploy.Goodenow's testing the owners' resolve. He thinks they'll crack like they did in '94. He's re-fighting the last war.

That's how generals lose the next war: by thinking they can re-fight the last war.

Bettman sure has learned from the last war though. I've got to say the owners have shown unwavering resolve so far.

The NHLPA has done a good job too, considering that it's much more difficult to control 700 people with much different situations and interests.

The only way Goodenow can do a bad job is to give bad advices to the players, but ultimately it's up to the players to give him the right mandate, bad advices or not. Goodenow will do what is asked of him and use the right strategies according to the mandate that he is given. He can't take upon himself to wait for the cancellation and until next year unless he's been told to. I can't believe he would hold so much power.
 

MacDaddy TLC*

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getnziggywidit said:
I believe a majority of the players is not being represented. The heavy handed tactics of the leaders of the PA is to simply push their agenda and win; sense, logic and rationality be damned.

Players are told to go play in another continent far away from their families and to play for a lot less than they could make in the NHL with a cap; they are told to steal another guys job;
Owners are losing money and teams are being bankrupted;
Fans are constantly having their ticket prices increased;
Hockey programs across NA are no longer funded;

To hell with all of it the PA leaders say, we have an agenda.
and you are correct. Everytime an owner speaks out of turn---bam a fine hits them.


Everytime a member of the PA speaks out they are "misquoted".

The fact is, Bob Goodenow doesn't have the support he would like the owners to believe he does. The PA will be broken by September and good riddance to the PA and Bob Goodenow when it happens.
 

hockeyengineer

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jpsharkfan said:
It really shows that Goodenow has no real concept of the problems facing the game and is now only trying to save face. Reading the article made me mad, and then I realized that this is more than likely nothing more than an attempt to get the Owners to cave or back off of their position.
What a shame that the NHLPA has yet to figure out that every time they do something like this or really even open their mouths the sway public opinion in favor of the League.

Bob, keep telling the players to hold out, and then explain to them how there will be nothing for them when they return. The players want what they consider their fair share of the pie and yet the PA fails to realize that the pie is shrinking every day. They longer the NHL is out of action the less pie there will be to divide. How much more money are the Players willing to lose?

I have always believed hockey players were very brave, and yet we constantly hear that the vast majority of players are willing to accept a cap and get back to playing but no one is brave enough to start the revolt.


:handclap: Exactly. Agree w/you 100%!!
 

struckmatch

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This reeks of a last ditch attempt to see if the owners mean business or not. Goodenow leaked this for bargaining purposes, it has no real truth value to it. He's hoping the owners will capitulate again, and that's not going to happen. Although, you can't blame the guy for trying, since it had worked in the past, but the owners have been ready and willing to flush this season down the toilet if need be, and need is reaching closer and closer.

Goodenow and the PA would be absolutely moronic to let the season slip sway, if everyone who pays attention to NHL hockey can see that there will be cost certainty no matter the length of this lockout, then I'm sure the PA can see that. There is still some time left to negotiate, I think round the clock meetings will start at the 11th hour, because a 36 game season can still be salvaged if the puck drops in early February.

I don't think this is personal for either Bettman or Goodenow. I just think Goodenow is testing the resolve of the owners, which is what any leader in his position would do, he knows he has pretty much lost this, but why go down without a fight? Goodenow is a very smart man, he must be able to see the players odds are slim to none.
 

Wetcoaster

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iagreewithidiots said:
Everyone has to quit calling these guys a union.

They are a players association. An association of players out to squeeze every dime possible. Im not saying that to be critical its the truth.

They arent fighting for a fair wage. They arent fighting for better benefits. They arent fighting for safer working conditions. They shouldnt be accepting other positions in their field of work. They dont engage in real collective bargaining. They arent a union.

"Everyone"(meaning this poster and others) has to quit claiming these guys are NOT a union - they are.

The NLRB certainly accepts the various player associations as unions and in 1995 ruled against MLB's attempt to declare a bargaining impasse, impose a CBA and use replacement players.

This is an appeal by the Major League Baseball Player Relations Committee, Inc. ("PRC") and the constituent member clubs of Major League Baseball ("Clubs") from a temporary injunction issued by Judge Sotomayor pursuant to section 10(j) of the National Labor Relations Act ("NLRA"), 29 U.S.C. § 160(j). The PRC is the collective bargaining representative for the twenty-eight Clubs. The Major League Baseball Players Association is a union that is the exclusive bargaining representative for the forty-man rosters of each major league club.
Silverman v. Major League Baseball Player Relations,Comm., Inc. , 880 F. Supp. 246, 261 (SDNY 1995).

When workers are locked out they often go and find other work in the interim.

They are a union as defined under US law and under the various Canadian provincial labour laws which govern the treatment of the NHLPA as bargaining agent for the players as set out in the CBA.

Under the US National Labor Relations Act the term used to describe unions is "labor organization" althought the terms are used interchangeably in several sections:

DEFINITIONS
Sec. 2. [§ 152.] When used in this Act [subchapter]--

(5) The term "labor organization" means any organization of any kind, or any agency or employee representation committee or plan, in which employees participate and which exists for the purpose, in whole or in part, of dealing with employers concerning grievances, labor disputes, wages, rates of pay, hours of employment, or conditions of work.
....................
Sec. 14. [§ 164. Construction of provisions] (a) [Supervisors as union members] Nothing herein shall prohibit any individual employed as a supervisor from becoming or remaining a member of a labor organization, but no employer subject to this Act [subchapter] shall be compelled to deem individuals defined herein as supervisors as employees for the purpose of any law, either national or local, relating to collective bargaining.

(b) [Agreements requiring union membership in violation of State law] Nothing in this Act [subchapter] shall be construed as authorizing the execution or application of agreements requiring membership in a labor organization as a condition of employment in any State or Territory in which such execution or application is prohibited by State or Territorial law.

Under the Labour Code in British Columbia (there are similar definitions in other provinces as in Canada this is a matter of provincial jurisdiction under the Canadian constitution) the term used is "trade union":
Part 1 — Introductory Provisions
Definitions
1 (1) In this Code:

"trade union" means a local or Provincial organization or association of employees, or a local or Provincial branch of a national or international organization or association of employees in British Columbia, that has as one of its purposes the regulation in British Columbia of relations between employers and employees through collective bargaining, and includes an association or council of trade unions, but not an organization or association of employees that is dominated or influenced by an employer

The CBA recognizes the NHLPA as the sole bargaining agent fro NHL players and the CBA continues in force for this purpose until replaced:

Preamble

This Collective Bargaining Agreement ("CBA" or "Agreement"), which is the product of bona fide, arm's length collective bargaining, is entered into effective the 13th day of January, 1995, by and between the National Hockey League, a joint
venture organized as a not-for-profit unincorporated association ("NHL" or "League"), which is recognized as the sole and exclusive bargaining representative of the present and future Clubs of the NHL, and the National Hockey League Players' Association ("NHLPA" or "Association"), which is recognized as the sole and exclusive bargaining representative of present and future players in the NHL.

Yes the NHLPA is a union - in law and in fact.
 

txomisc

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so if they should get jobs for this year and next season too what exactly does he think is going to happen after next year? are the owners then finally gonna cave? what could he possibly think will cause there to be a season after two years have been missed? I mean clearly he would have to think itd be good for his association members.
basically if there is no hockey this season and no hockey next season i am 100% positive that if there is an nhl season again it will be even more at the expense of the union. the owners will not only have won but won by a ridiculous margin
 

Wetcoaster

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04' hockey said:
Open the training camp doors next Sept. for ANY players to ice a TEAM.....we'll ALL be surprised who wants to play hockey, earn a living. :eek: :handclap:

Slight problem - it is illegal.
 

Wetcoaster

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Mayor of MacAppolis said:
Not true at all. Gary Bettman is carrying out the mandatge put forth by his employers, the NHL board of Governors. I would wager that he has the support of at least 75% of that board.

Who is Bob Goodenow answering to? Who's agenda is he pushing ahead with? Is he listening to the Mike Commodores and Pierre Dagenais?

All Bettman needs is 8 owners as he was given that authority by the BOG.

Goodenow must have the support of 50% of the NHLPA plus 1. In the NHLPA it is a straight majority rule.
 

CarlRacki

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Feb 9, 2004
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Wetcoaster said:
Slight problem - it is illegal.

Not if they get an impasse declared. And while I'm not a labor lawyer, I can't imagine Goodenow telling his members to go find work elsewhere hurts the NHL's case.
 

djhn579

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Mar 11, 2003
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Wetcoaster said:
All Bettman needs is 8 owners as he was given that authority by the BOG.

Goodenow must have the support of 50% of the NHLPA plus 1. In the NHLPA it is a straight majority rule.

What does it take to actually have the NHLPA vote on a CBA? How many on the players side can make that happen?
 

Wetcoaster

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CarlRacki said:
Not if they get an impasse declared. And while I'm not a labor lawyer, I can't imagine Goodenow telling his members to go find work elsewhere hurts the NHL's case.

I have been a labour lawyer (labour and management sides) and a VP of a national union before getting my law degree.

Goodenow's statement has nothing to do with the issue of a bargaining impasse - if it did he would not have made it.

When MLB tried a bargaining impasse in 1994 they were shut down by the NLRB. Very few decalrations of impasse are ever upheld by the NLRB. One figure I saw was that of the last 37 impasses before the NLRB, only one was upheld.

It is an extremely difficult thing to achieve and sitting on one position and repeating "cost certainty" is unlikely to get it done. the first requirement to get an impasse upheld is to demonstrate that you have bargained in good faith. In 1994 MLB was flexible, used a federal mediator and even the president and Congress became involved as mediators - that was not good enough and MLB was determined not to have bargained in good faith.

Also when MLB owners were rumbling about trying again for a bargaining impasse recently the players' union said the magic words "union decertification" and the owners caved.

If the NHL owners try to declare an impasse the NHLPA can decertify and then the owners would be subject to the full blast of anti-trust law including that lovely "treble damages" provision. That is the last thing the NHL owners (or any pro sport would want - complete free agency, no draft, no reserve clause, etc.). They need the NHLPA so they can operate outside of anti-trust law restrictions.

Here is an excerpt from last year from ESPN on the MLB labour dispute prior to the signing of the last CBA:

To date, the parties have danced around the key issues, knowing that both sides are very firmly entrenched in their positions. Before the 1994-95 negotiations, MLB owners passed a bylaw that requires any new collective bargaining agreement to pass with a three-fourths majority. In other words, any group of eights clubs can act as a voting bloc to prevent the passage of an agreement they don't like. As a result, the owners have become almost as adamant about an external salary restraint as the players are about not ever allowing one.

Like the 1994-95 labor dispute, this one is as much about disagreement among owners as it is about disagreement between owners and players. There are different factions among ownership with regards to labor issues, but the dissent was stifled, until very recently, by the threat of a $1 million fine for public mention or discussion of labor concerns. Don't be surprised if the MLBPA chooses to give ground on revenue sharing in negotiations. Increased revenue sharing will have a mild drag on salaries, but absent a nasty luxury tax, the drag is relatively minor. It will probably be harder to get 23 owners to agree on a revenue-sharing plan than it will be to get the players to agree to one.
..................

What if collective bargaining fails?
Then the legal dances begin. If the owners and players cannot come to an agreement, owners have the option, if they have negotiated in good faith, to declare an impasse -- a state of hopeless deadlock -- and unilaterally implement new work rules. If the owners do this, the MLBPA will likely file a grievance with the National Labor Relations Board (NLRB).

The NLRB serves as kind of a clearinghouse of legal information, enforcement, mediation, and ultimately, jurisprudence when it comes to labor relations. The NLRB basically has two jobs: guarantee that elections regarding union representation are run properly; and police unfair labor acts. With regard to baseball, the NLRB is the body that heard the MLBPA's grievance in 1995. The NLRB voted 3-2 in agreement with the players that MLB owners had not bargained in good faith, and could not unilaterally eliminate salary arbitration or the agreement not to collude contained in the expired CBA. The NLRB's New York office then sought and obtained a preliminary injunction blocking these moves by the owners, whereupon the players called off their strike and went back to work under the terms of the expired CBA until the parties reached a new agreement.
.................

So is the NLRB's decision the last of it?
Not quite. If everything goes against the MLBPA and the owners implement new work rules, the MLBPA has another option that is seldom mentioned -- decertification. The members of the MLBPA can vote to decertify the MLBPA as their collective bargaining representative. Such a step would immediately end the collective bargaining relationship, and leave the parties in the positions they would occupy if there had been no CBA at all.

This option was not available to the players in 1994-95. At that time, baseball's unique antitrust exemption meant that once the parties reached a bargaining impasse, the players' only choices were to strike or to operate under the owners' proposal. One provision of the 1996 CBA was an agreement that the owners and players would jointly ask Congress to eliminate baseball's special antitrust exemption with respect to labor matters. The result was the "Curt Flood Act of 1998," which for the first time gave members of the MLBPA the same legal rights enjoyed by their football and basketball counterparts. One of these rights is the opportunity to invoke the antitrust laws against anticompetitive conduct. Although the labor exemption to the antitrust laws allows multi-employer groups in the same industry to negotiate a single CBA covering all of their employees, the exemption applies only as long as a collective bargaining relationship exists. Once the workers decertify their union, each employer must negotiate individually with its employees and prospective employees.

The consequences of decertification could be great. Without an exemption from the antitrust laws, the owners could be sued for any collective action which threatened to reduce player salaries or mobility. Such actions would include a salary cap, a luxury tax, and any limits on free agency not contained in the individual players' contracts. Affected players could sign contracts, then sue for the difference between the salary they received and what they would have earned without the restrictions -- and under antitrust law, all such damages would automatically be tripled.

As Marvin Miller, father of the modern MLBPA, once said, "A union only makes sense if the members have more power with a union than without." Even after decertifying the MLBPA as their bargaining representative, the players could contract as a group for the current management of the MLBPA to take care of administrative tasks, such as representing ballplayers in negotiating licensing agreements, and could individually retain Donald Fehr, Gene Orza or other sympathetic attorneys to sue Major League Baseball.

Not quite so simple as posters here seem to think.
 

Wetcoaster

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djhn579 said:
What does it take to actually have the NHLPA vote on a CBA? How many on the players side can make that happen?

50% plus 1.
 

vanlady

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djhn579 said:
What does it take to actually have the NHLPA vote on a CBA? How many on the players side can make that happen?

History in another league tells us what happens. In 1998 when the NBA owners demanded the union present there last offer for a vote, the senior players scheduled a decertification vote. The NBA owners folded faster than a house of cards in a hurricane. Why? because the owners would be on the hook for millions. A cap is restraint of trade and without the protection of a CBA is strictly illegal.

All it takes is 30% of the membership to schedule a decertification vote, it takes 51% to decertify. Is the risk worth it to the owners? The NBA owners didn't think so. Oh one last thought under decertification the little guy grinders are the ones that will be thrown under the bus in this scenario as there will be no guarenteed minimum salary.
 

Steve L*

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Wetcoaster said:
All Bettman needs is 8 owners as he was given that authority by the BOG.

Goodenow must have the support of 50% of the NHLPA plus 1. In the NHLPA it is a straight majority rule.
Its great to have a majority rule but Baghdad Bob is the only man who decides on what to vote. :shakehead
 

Wetcoaster

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vanlady said:
History in another league tells us what happens. In 1998 when the NBA owners demanded the union present there last offer for a vote, the senior players scheduled a decertification vote. The NBA owners folded faster than a house of cards in a hurricane. Why? because the owners would be on the hook for millions. A cap is restraint of trade and without the protection of a CBA is strictly illegal.

All it takes is 30% of the membership to schedule a decertification vote, it takes 51% to decertify. Is the risk worth it to the owners? The NBA owners didn't think so. Oh one last thought under decertification the little guy grinders are the ones that will be thrown under the bus in this scenario as there will be no guarenteed minimum salary.

Not necessarily.

Actually in the NBA situation the players had already voted and gave the executive the authority to decertify the union when they felt it was necessary. That made it very clear to the owners that they would not be able to slip in a CBA while a vote was being taken.

"(NBA) (p)layers earlier this summer gave the union's executive council the go-ahead to decertify, so a vote among the rank-and-file would not be necessary."
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/basketball/nba/news/1998/10/20/tuesday_lockout/
 
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