Good players that you never respected

[The Panther]

Nothing happened here. Messier would never hit Robinson with his stick.

Also, here are Messier and Robinson a few months later, palling around together:


Also, I used to have a hockey book from 1985 where Robinson said Messier (and Anderson) were the two opponents he most respected.

 

[NyQuil]

Mike Gartner. Stats of an all-time great. But while he was good, I never viewed him as anything all that special.

Gartner was one of the finest skaters I’ve ever seen. Both live and on TV.

 

[HFBS]

It always struck me how much Scott Stevens resembles notorious convicted murderer Scott Peterson.

I also consider them of similar moral character.

That's how much I like Scott Stevens.

 

[sr edler]

Funny how people describe Markus Näslund as "disinterested"

We've already been through this in numerous threads now and I think we reached some kind of semi-consensus in the off-topic thread that perhaps best can be described as "Ingmar Bergman syndrome", i.e. regarding their religious fathers being a priest and a bishop respectively.

A well known poster here even claimed he had seen Winter Light and that it made him think of Näslund.

By the way, a simple Google image search gives me numerous photographic proof of a happy smiling Näslund, and also a happy smiling Trevor Linden. I won't post them here though because of spam reasons.

I think Näslund had that church congregation look on his face most of the time just because he took his mission as a team captain very seriously. It's not that Näslund's serious image and sometimes indifferent facial expressions are too far removed from say Jonathan Toews' or Steve Yzerman's own Captain Serious personas, but the latter players had winning track records pretty much across the board (domestically and internationally) and Näslund had a losing one.

I don't think it's too much of a long shot theory to consider Markus Näslund just attempted a Swedish version of Captain Serious.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

Also - I mean off the ice, obviously Bobby Hull for a million reasons.

if we’re talking off ice, i also don’t think especially highly of brett hull for disowning his dad (for very good reason) and then after becoming a superstar palling around with him when the father-son thing became useful for endorsements. not super fond of the brettster publicly being a trump apologist either.

It always struck me how much Scott Stevens resembles notorious convicted murderer Scott Peterson.

I also consider them of similar moral character.

That's how much I like Scott Stevens.

i don’t see it. but can i ask—is your sean avery avatar ironic or sincere?

A well known poster here even claimed he had seen Winter Light and that it made him think of Näslund.

ftr that winter light comment was a joke, though if i ever subject myself to the trilogy again i probably can’t watch it without thinking of naslund now.

 

[Hobnobs]

It's not like I question the level of commitment though regarding most of these players, when it comes to harness racing. Some of them are probably even more into harness racing than they are hockey.

Charles Berglund, for instance, is married to the daughter of Sweden's perhaps most well known jockey of all time Stig H. Johansson.

Berglund's always puzzled me by they way because there's absolutely nothing athletic whatsoever about his appearance, even when he played. He just looks like a regular/random guy who should work at some office somewhere.

And there's nothing special about his game either. Nothing that stands out.

But he's still been a pretty good domestic player and won the Olympics, World Championships, and the SEL.

I think he was even captain for both Djurgårdens IF and the Swedish national team at some point.

Jonas Bergqvist's another guy whose appearance never struck me as stud athlete-ish.

Yea both Berglund and the Bergqvist brothers were "just" blue collar hard working guys. They overcame their lack of elite talent by just out working everyone.

 

[HFBS]

i don’t see it. but can i ask—is your sean avery avatar ironic or sincere?

Neither.

 

[JianYang]

I give goalies a ****load of leeway for a lot of stuff, so it never bothered me. And I feel Roy - who took two middle of the road teams to two Cups has a lot of credit built up that the fans in Montreal shouldn't **** on him for a rare bad game.

I still love that Detroit signed their own death warrant by hanging 9 on him that night.

I was too young to remeber 86, but the 93 team was not a middling team. They had over 100 points despite roy having a poor regular season.

Once roy got into form, then they started clicking on all cylinders, going on a 16-2 run.

I'm not sure there were many matchups that year which would have resulted in the habs being clear underdogs. The ones that come to mind right away are Boston, Pittsburgh, Chicago, and Detroit.... All teams they were able to avoid.

 

[CokenoPepsi]

Jarome Iginla

Yeah he was "Classy" when things were going well but on the ice he was such a crybaby whiner.

Had a couple decent games in exhibition tournaments but was medicore in the NHL playoffs when he was expected to be the guy, one fluke run where he didn't show up in the final games but he is always regarded as this great leader..I just don't see it, he was a bit better Keith Tkachuk.

 

[The Panther]

Jarome Iginla

Yeah he was "Classy" when things were going well but on the ice he was such a crybaby whiner.

Any particular example?

Had a couple decent games in exhibition tournaments but was medicore in the NHL playoffs...

With Calgary, he scored 28 goals in 54 games (0.52 per game), almost entirely in one of the lower-scoring periods in NHL history (not to mention with very little if any offensive help). That's not mediocre -- that's the very definition of outstanding.

At the age of 35, for Pittsburgh, he scored 12 points with only 15:45 ice-time. He was producing points at a higher rate per time-on-ice than Letang or Crosby, and maybe only marginally behind Malkin for tops on the team.

one fluke run where he didn't show up in the final games

Oh no! He didn't score any points in games six and seven, what a bum.

Arguing that Iginla didn't do enough to carry the Flames to the Cup in the final two games of the season is akin to arguing that Gretzky didn't do enough for L.A. in the '93 Finals or Roy didn't do enough for Montreal in '89. It's absurd. You didn't mention, btw, that Iginla led the Flames in the 2004 Finals in goals and points, with the second-best plus/minus. Only two Lightning players outscored him, and then only because they had actual talented teammates on the power-play.

he was a bit better Keith Tkachuk.

Farewell, credibility...

 

[brachyrynchos]

The player that slept with the wife of their teammate. I've always had problems respecting those players regardless of the circumstances...it's a pretty crappy thing to do.

 

[CokenoPepsi]

Any particular example?

With Calgary, he scored 28 goals in 54 games (0.52 per game), almost entirely in one of the lower-scoring periods in NHL history (not to mention with very little if any offensive help). That's not mediocre -- that's the very definition of outstanding.

At the age of 35, for Pittsburgh, he scored 12 points with only 15:45 ice-time. He was producing points at a higher rate per time-on-ice than Letang or Crosby, and maybe only marginally behind Malkin for tops on the team.
Oh no! He didn't score any points in games six and seven, what a bum.

Arguing that Iginla didn't do enough to carry the Flames to the Cup in the final two games of the season is akin to arguing that Gretzky didn't do enough for L.A. in the '93 Finals or Roy didn't do enough for Montreal in '89. It's absurd. You didn't mention, btw, that Iginla led the Flames in the 2004 Finals in goals and points, with the second-best plus/minus. Only two Lightning players outscored him, and then only because they had actual talented teammates on the power-play.

Farewell, credibility...

Look, I'm not saying Iginla was a bad player obviously... just overrated and I didn't like his crybaby act.

He clearly got worse when the playoffs came around and was not somebody you could count on when the chips were down, he had a lot of talent on those post lockout Flames teams and despite being "Best leader in hockey" couldn't get him out of the first round.

He no showed in games 6 and 7 in the 04 final and just seemed scared after that.

In fact from the 04 final through his last series in Calgary his stats in the final two games in a series.

10 GP 1 goal, 1 assist....yeesh

 

[CokenoPepsi]

This needs to be broken down into 2 sections.

Do you respect the player?
Do you respect the person?

Given none of us know, on a personal level, these players, I'd throw the 2nd question completely out the window. I mean, I guess some could/would argue that if a player is dirty, crosses the line between competitiveness and intent to injure, then he could be an ******* in his life away from hockey, but I don't know if we can assume such hypotheticals.


Players I have never, and will never respect.

Jagr
-One way player who almost never rose to the occasion, no matter where he was playing. Scored A LOT of empty points. Never even attempted to adapt to the game as it changed throughout his career. Came off as a *****ebag so many times, who played the game on his terms as opposed to somebody like Yzerman who completely overhauled his game for the betterment of the team as he slowed down. I'm not sure Jagr was ever that invested into hockey. At least not for the team aspects.

Coffey
-He rode the coattails of legendary players most of his career. Gretzky and Mario are the obvious names to point out. Like Jagr, completely inept defensively, and worse yet he personally admitted he didn't play defense. Calling him a defensemen is a joke because he either didn't try or care to do the most important thing any blueliner can do, and that's defend pucks from going into your own net. I've heard people talk about Bobby Orr when it comes to Coffey's style but that's an insult to Orr, because the latter was phenomenal defensively and used in all situations. Coffey, a defensemen mind you, routinely did vulture circles (thanks for @VanIslander for that gem) OUTSIDE his own blue line, waiting for a puck to be taken by one of his own poor teammates who had to work extra hard because a blueliner was 50-70 feet away, skating in an oval.


Players who I used to not respect, but do now.

Ovechkin
-Never liked him, mainly because he's a stud on a big rival but the lack of respect came from him largely ignoring anything that resembled defensive effort for many years. Like Coffey, you could routinely find him disengaged, up near the blueline, waiting for a breakout, provided by one of the other 4 guys on the ice with him. I also couldn't stand his over the top celebrations for things that are very routine in hockey. With that being said, I've seen him mature as a hockey player and even though I will never "like" him, I have come to respect the hell out of 8 because I do think (unlike Jagr) he really loves game and cares about winning.

The Jagr thing I don't get... guy used to be hated on here then he became sort of a clown as he got older and people would not shut up about him

 

[The Panther]

Look, I'm not saying Iginla was a bad player obviously... just overrated and I didn't like his crybaby act.

You've mentioned or referred to the crybaby thing twice now, but without any evidence. What exactly are you referring to? Maybe you have a point, but I don't know what you're talking about.

He clearly got worse when the playoffs came around...

0.43 -- Iginla's Calgary GPG in regular season
0.52 -- Iginla's Calgary GPG in playoffs

As to the "final two games in a series" after 2004: In 2006, the Flames collectively scored 1 goal in the final two games against Anaheim. Iginla didn't factor into that one goal, but then again he wasn't on the ice for any non-empty net goals against in either game. In 2007, against the mighty Red Wings, the Flames collectively scored two goals in the final two games and Iginla scored in game six, which went to double-overtime. In 2008, against another club way ahead of Calgary in the standings (San Jose), Iginla didn't score in game six, but he was on the ice for one of Calgary's two goals (they won the game). In game seven, he scored one of Calgary's three goals. In 2009 (against another higher seed, Chicago), Iginla did not have a good game in game five (no points, -3) or six (no points, -2).

So, I'll give you that in 2009, against a soon-to-be-Cup winner, he didn't perform very well in the final two games of the series. But before that, he had scored 3 goals in the first four games.

What do you want from the guy?? I mean, if you wanna pick on a elite player who doesn't get it done in the playoffs, Iginla is hardly Exhibit-A. Why not pile on Joe Thornton?

 

[NOLAPensFan]

Not really, no. Messier had great respect for all his opponents.

A half-dozen times or so in a 26-year career he crossed the line into dangerous plays, but in all cases I've seen he simply lost his temper in the heat of the battle. He was an intense player with a physical edge. I never once saw Messier wack a guy with his stick.

Also, Messier didn't go after elite players like Mario or Yzerman, ala Gary Suter. (Yeah, I know he elbowed Mike Modano in a collision, but that's more an example of him raising an elbow to protect himself in anticipation of a hit. He didn't know who the player was. Also, we got that stretcher-fail clip from that incident, which makes it worth it.)

Sometimes he hit smaller guys, but Messier also answered the bell by fighting with McSorley (3 times, I think), Peplinski, Roberts, many others, etc.

If you're going to call Messier the dirtiest guy ever, you have to do the same for Gary Roberts, Eric Lindros, Gordie Howe, etc. It was a different time with different standards.

Ask Doug Gilmore about that time when he had to scrape Messier's stick tape out of the roof of his mouth.

During the 1992 playoffs Tocchet skated over to Messier and warned him to stop abusing Mario or Tocchet would intervene. Messier backed off

 

[The Panther]

During the 1992 playoffs Tocchet skated over to Messier and warned him to stop abusing Mario or Tocchet would intervene. Messier backed off

Good story, but lacking evidence.

Also, I've no memory of Messier abusing Mario.

 

[Pominville Knows]

Erik Karlsson is a douche farmboy who who also in his private life can act douchy.

 

[sr edler]

Oh, I just remembered -- Messier did actually whack a guy over the head with his stick in (I think) 1984... it was a Canuck, on a very dangerous-looking play. Mess got a (then) long suspension.

The YT clip calls it "clubbing" though and not "whacking".

 

[K Fleur]

The YT clip calls it "clubbing" though and not "whacking".

Mark "Braveheart" Messier.

The NHL should give him a trophy for such leadership.

 

[mrhockey193195]

Not disagreeing with people hating Messier, but I'm just curious if those people hold Rocket Richard, Bobby Clarke, and other similar all-time great players to the same standard with regards to dirtiness (and specifically in this case, stick infractions). If you hate Mess for being dirty, then surely you hate those guys as well? Hell, Gordie Howe was arguably as well known for his elbows as he was for his goal scoring...

It's absolutely great that the league has cracked down on violent stick infractions, but it's also important to judge players based on the standards of their time.

 

[wetcoast]

Brad Marchand.

This is the obvious current answer.

Matt Cooke and Alex Burrows were good Canuck players that I didn't respect.

Messier and Ken Linseman are obvious answers as well.

 

[wetcoast]

Not disagreeing with people hating Messier, but I'm just curious if those people hold Rocket Richard, Bobby Clarke, and other similar all-time great players to the same standard with regards to dirtiness (and specifically in this case, stick infractions). If you hate Mess for being dirty, then surely you hate those guys as well? Hell, Gordie Howe was arguably as well known for his elbows as he was for his goal scoring...

It's absolutely great that the league has cracked down on violent stick infractions, but it's also important to judge players based on the standards of their time.

Moose had (and still does) an arrogant air about him as well that makes it really easy to not respect him.

Bobby Clarke was my favorite player as a youngster but I quickly changed that view when Stan Smyl joined the Canucks.

Steamer played hard and tough but was as classy as Jean Beliveau.

 

[The Panther]

I'm not sure Rick Tocchet is the best guy to bring up in a post dissing Messier. Wasn't Tocchet charged with gouging the eyes of a rookie in the late-80s? (There's also that gambling thing.)

 

[psycat]

The player that slept with the wife of their teammate. I've always had problems respecting those players regardless of the circumstances...it's a pretty crappy thing to do.

Similiar for me but idc much about that, now DUI on the other hand.

 

[Air Budd Dwyer]

In regard to the Iginla discussion. I remember him playing dirty when the Flames started falling behind to Detroit in the 07 playoffs, skating down ice and butt ending Schneider in the ribs, I believe. I can also think of some moments during his time in Boston where he’d flip out a bit if an opposing player touched him at all.

Also, when I think of clutch players, you can score 10 goals in games 1-6 but if you consistently no-show for game 7, when it’s really show time, then I don’t consider you a money player.