Good Leaders who weren’t great players.

[Johnny Engine]

Jason Smith is a funny one, because my impression of him was that he was a really good top pair defenseman who'd be best as a stay at home #2, but if you look back at the TOI averages on those Edmonton teams, he was constantly playing less than guys like Poti, Niinama, and Staios, even Igor Ulanov one time. Of course, TOI isn't the be all end all, but I think it would be accurate to say I perceived him to be filling a role for the Oilers that he wasn't actually playing in. I'd like to hear someone who watched Edmonton a lot at the time give a more realistic assessment of Smith's value as a player.

I don't think Hatcher applies here. Absolute horse who was just on the outside of the Norris conversation. While nobody plays his style anymore, both he and Shea Weber are the toughest (and slowest) #1 defenseman in the game at a certain point in NHL history, and Weber doesn't belong in this thread either.

Wasn't Jason Strudwick known as a good leader?

 

[DannyGallivan]

Stan Smyl
Dirk Graham

 

[Nerowoy nora tolad]

Mark Messier in Vancouver?

I think Linden has nightmares that look like this

He was one of the best defensive defensemen of the clutch and grab era. Not a "great" player but I'd take him over the other names mentioned in this thread.

Its been so long we start to forget there was a time when the tendency of a defender to wrestle their man to the ice was considered a feature and not a bug

 

[Sticks and Pucks]

His career got derailed by injury, but I always found it interesting that Denis Pederson was an alternate captain on the 1998-00 Devils. I thought Pederson was on track to be a solid #3 center, but he got lost in the shuffle once Scott Gomez and John Madden cemented their spots. Since he was one of the few RH shots up front, Pederson got moved to RW against his wishes and his numbers took a dive.

But on a team with vets like Daneyko, Niedermayer, Holik, most wouldn't have guessed that Pederson would have gotten the A over them.

This one is very interesting. It appears that Pederson was already a regular alternate captain in 98-99 as a third line 23-year-old player. This is on a veteran team that included better, older players who had been playing on the Devils for longer than Pederson did. Notably, Scott Niedermayer, Bobby Holik, and Brian Rolston. What was the story behind Pederson getting the "A" over these guys? Especially over Niedermayer, who turned out to be a pretty good leader captaining Team Canada to an Olympic gold medal...

 

[double5son10]

Jimmy Roberts
Rick Green
Brian Skrudland
Mike Keane

 

[scott clam]

Brian Sutter feels like the prototypical "Hall of Good" leader.

 

[Big Phil]

For whatever reason Kelly Buchberger was the first name to jump out at me, and I can see he's already been mentioned.

The funny thing is, there was a time when it was normal for your best player to NOT be your captain. How many people know that Bobby Orr was never captain? Gordie Howe had a brief time when he was captain of the Red Wings. Other than that it was Lindsay, Kelly and then when Kelly left it was Howe for a bit but then they gave it to Delvecchio for a decade. Hard to believe huh? I am not sure what made them think Howe wasn't captain material.

 

[MuzikMachine]

Looked through the list of some of the team captains, a few that stand out.

Randy Cunneyworth, OTT - transitional captain for a couple years from the really bad to playoff teams. I recall he was in and out of the lineup near the end. Although maybe some of the expansion teams should get 3-5 year exemption, there were some interesting names prior to their prospects becoming captains (i.e. Troy Loney in ANA prior to Kariya).

Garth Butcher, STL - Hull & Oats wore the A's

Tim Taylor, TB - post lockout but still defending Stanley Cup Champions.

Curt Giles - Min North Stars, didn't have great stats but was captain in the late 80s/early 90s.

 

[The Panther]

Hard to believe huh? I am not sure what made them think Howe wasn't captain material.

That is really Howe's personality. (There may also, by the late 60s, have been some teammate / management disinclination towards Colleen Howe, who made a lot of enemies with old, white, chauvinistic men.)

Gordie was everyone's best friend, which is good for a captain, but I don't think he was the "leader" personality type. Based on what (admittedly little) I know, I think he was more the type to avoid confrontation, calling anyone out, or locker-room speeches. He was more like a "take it easy and go with the (company) flow" type of player.

 

[Soundgarden]

In general I think of team captains and even assistants as the better players on the team which gives them some instant credibility. Sometimes though a player who is more of a journeyman is elevated to these positions.

For example Bill Houlder, (who although I think is a bit underrated was certainly not a star), was an assistant captain in San Jose and Nashville and a captain in Tampa. Who else were surprising captains?

Wow, can't remember the last time I thought about Bill "the wallet" Houlder.

 

[Normand Lacombe]

Alyn McCauley
Bob Boughner
Willie Mitchell

 

[Brodeur]

This one is very interesting. It appears that Pederson was already a regular alternate captain in 98-99 as a third line 23-year-old player. This is on a veteran team that included better, older players who had been playing on the Devils for longer than Pederson did. Notably, Scott Niedermayer, Bobby Holik, and Brian Rolston. What was the story behind Pederson getting the "A" over these guys? Especially over Niedermayer, who turned out to be a pretty good leader captaining Team Canada to an Olympic gold medal...

This was from before I could watch the Devils every game, but Pederson seemed to have the reputation of a high character/effort 3rd liner. John Madden eventually became what I thought Pederson was going to be. From what I remember, part of the reason they traded Rolston for Claude Lemieux was to get extra veteran presence in a young lineup. Old Daily Show segment which showed Pederson and Scott Stevens having a post-whistle scrum during practice (around the three minute mark): Canada! - The Daily Show with Jon Stewart (Video Clip) | Comedy Central US

Unrelated, but found this old doodle from one of my college notebooks circa early '00. Apparently younger me thought Pederson could be a cheap top 6 option for Boston. Young me also thought Nick Boynton and Mike Van Ryn projected better long term than Brian Rafalski. Whoooooops. Also looks like I had Marian Gaborik penciled in on the Islanders already.

 

[Big Phil]

Alyn McCauley
Bob Boughner
Willie Mitchell

I can remember us Leaf fans being very excited that we were getting Alyn McCauley in that Gilmour trade. He had just played in the WJC and done well, and was having a huge year in the OHL. We thought he was a star in the making. I remember McCauley specifically saying before he got to Toronto that he is "not a franchise player". I guess he wasn't, but there was a bit of hope. For whatever reason he exploded during the 2002 playoffs when Sundin was out. So yeah I agree, a good leader.

That is really Howe's personality. (There may also, by the late 60s, have been some teammate / management disinclination towards Colleen Howe, who made a lot of enemies with old, white, chauvinistic men.)

Gordie was everyone's best friend, which is good for a captain, but I don't think he was the "leader" personality type. Based on what (admittedly little) I know, I think he was more the type to avoid confrontation, calling anyone out, or locker-room speeches. He was more like a "take it easy and go with the (company) flow" type of player.

Funny how that was. Maybe it was the farm boy mentality with Howe. But a guy who was so mean and a win-at-all cost player on the ice was actually a gentleman off of it. Maybe he was never comfortable in the captain role. I mean, they gave it to Delvecchio after having him have it. Maybe Howe was the one who requested it? Or Colleen?

 

[Sticks and Pucks]

This was from before I could watch the Devils every game, but Pederson seemed to have the reputation of a high character/effort 3rd liner. John Madden eventually became what I thought Pederson was going to be. From what I remember, part of the reason they traded Rolston for Claude Lemieux was to get extra veteran presence in a young lineup. Old Daily Show segment which showed Pederson and Scott Stevens having a post-whistle scrum during practice (around the three minute mark): Canada! - The Daily Show with Jon Stewart (Video Clip) | Comedy Central US

Unrelated, but found this old doodle from one of my college notebooks circa early '00. Apparently younger me thought Pederson could be a cheap top 6 option for Boston. Young me also thought Nick Boynton and Mike Van Ryn projected better long term than Brian Rafalski. Whoooooops. Also looks like I had Marian Gaborik penciled in on the Islanders already.

Haha this is really cool. What also stands out is seeing Thornton and Allison on the same team... and Jonathan Girard being highly regarded enough to play with Bourque. Also the fact that you were writing this out in your math homework lol.

 

[David Bruce Banner]

Orland Kurtenbach

 

[CrosbyIsKing87]

A lot of Flyers come to mind. Dave Poulin (although didn't he win a Selke once?), Craig Berube, Brad Marsh. Terry O'Reily.

 

[Normand Lacombe]

A lot of Flyers come to mind. Dave Poulin (although didn't he win a Selke once?), Craig Berube, Brad Marsh. Terry O'Reily.

Poulin won the Selke in 1987.

 

[Pominville Knows]

A lot of Flyers come to mind. Dave Poulin (although didn't he win a Selke once?), Craig Berube, Brad Marsh. Terry O'Reily.

Poulin was hardly a bad player. Quite the opposite almost

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Doug Young was a solid stay-at-home defenseman who received a handful of all-star votes a few times in the 1930s, but I doubt anyone thought he was a "great player" even back then. He captained Detroit to its first two Cup wins in 1936 and 1937.

 

[Nerowoy nora tolad]

Doug Young was a solid stay-at-home defenseman who received a handful of all-star votes a few times in the 1930s, but I doubt anyone thought he was a "great player" even back then. He captained Detroit to its first two Cup wins in 1936 and 1937.

When hes a defenceman pre-television with very little commentary from old-timers in the GOAT conversation, who really knows

Youd think he cant be that amazing, but whats to stop him from being a terrific all-round defenceman that just wasnt on anybodys greatest-ive-ever-seen list

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

When hes a defenceman pre-television with very little commentary from old-timers in the GOAT conversation, who really knows

Youd think he cant be that amazing, but whats to stop him from being a terrific all-round defenceman that just wasnt on anybodys greatest-ive-ever-seen list

Depends on your criteria for "greatness." Never finishing top 6 in All-Star voting (though he did get a handful of votes 3 times) is enough for me to believe he was not "great."

I'm sure he was quite solid.