Golden Boy Shortlist 2020

Pavel Buchnevich

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Dec 8, 2013
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Haaland is also a striker and Sancho is a winger.

That said Davies has stepped in at 19 and in a lot of games been Bayern's best player. He completely shut down and frustrated Sancho and has also been present on the scoresheet. I could see Sancho, Haaland and Camavinga though also, but Davies has been just as impressive if not moreso. I think it takes a special kind of talent to step in at 19 on one of the best teams on the planet and not only hold down a starting spot but excel and be one of the best players on the way to the title and possibly the CL.

Come on now. Davies isn't winning or even finishing top 5. He's done well, but he's not going to be in contention for this award.

If Haaland has it work against him that he hasn't played a full season in a top league, a player who hasn't been starting for a full season isn't going to be in contention.

Being a LB also works against him. The winners of these awards are almost never defenders.
 

YNWA14

Onbreekbaar
Dec 29, 2010
34,543
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Come on now. Davies isn't winning or even finishing top 5. He's done well, but he's not going to be in contention for this award.

If Haaland has it work against him that he hasn't played a full season in a top league, a player who hasn't been starting for a full season isn't going to be in contention.

Being a LB also works against him. The winners of these awards are almost never defenders.
I'm not saying he is going to win, but he should.

Also he's played nearly as many first team minutes as Sancho, just won Bayern's player of the month, has 3 goals and 9 assists from leftback (including 3 assists in 4 CL games), and has generally been a phenom on arguably a top 3-5 team in the world.

Don't think you can really go wrong with any of Sancho, Haaland, Camavinga or Davies. But for me it would be between Davies and Camavinga, though one of Sancho or Haaland will win it because goals.
 
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Pavel Buchnevich

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Dec 8, 2013
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The shortlist was released today and I thought it deserved a spot for for discussion.

4 NA players were nominated; Davies and David from Canada; Reyna and Dest from the US.

Here is a link to the full list:
Vota il Golden Boy 2020, le 100 nomination

There's actually five North American players. Diego Lainez from Mexico is on that list. Probably the most overhyped player I've ever seen come out of Mexico. His game reminds me of Emre Mor. He dribbles himself into a corner almost every time he touches the ball, and never gets anywhere near the goal. He's struggled all season to get any minutes at Real Betis. There are rumors he might head back to Mexico already.
 
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YNWA14

Onbreekbaar
Dec 29, 2010
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Then that's even more ridiculous.

Very good young player, but nowhere near good enough to win the Golden Ball this year. His resume for the award simply isn't among the top candidates.

Its pure homerism to suggest he should win it.
How is it pure homerism? His performance has been prodigious, he's looked better than Haaland and Sancho in direct match-ups, he's excelled in the CL and against all the best teams in the BuLi, he's producing offensively at leftback and he's likely saved sure goals. The only reason there isn't more hype around what he's done and how he's looked against the top competition is because he's a defender. Not sure why you removed the other stuff from the quote.
 
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Pavel Buchnevich

Drury and Laviolette Must Go
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How is it pure homerism?

Isn’t Canada your second team?

I think you are missing the point. There are simply too many good players for a LB whose only been starting for 2/3 of the season to actually be in contention for the award. He’s very good, but his resume doesn’t warrant the award.

Go down the list. Boadu, Camavinga, Dest, Greenwood, Martinelli, Reinier, Szoboszlai, Tonali, Torres, Vinicius. Plenty of very good youngsters on the list, some of which had excellent seasons, who don’t and shouldn’t have a realistic chance to win.
 

Duchene2MacKinnon

In the hands of Genius
Aug 8, 2006
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Too much stock is being put into this list. Plenty of players that will go on to have great careers aren't even on here. Some players on here will never 'make it'. This should just be used as a reference and nothing more.
 

Cassano

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Aug 31, 2013
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I'm not saying he is going to win, but he should.

Also he's played nearly as many first team minutes as Sancho, just won Bayern's player of the month, has 3 goals and 9 assists from leftback (including 3 assists in 4 CL games), and has generally been a phenom on arguably a top 3-5 team in the world.

Don't think you can really go wrong with any of Sancho, Haaland, Camavinga or Davies. But for me it would be between Davies and Camavinga, though one of Sancho or Haaland will win it because goals.
Once again, I agree with you 100%
 
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YNWA14

Onbreekbaar
Dec 29, 2010
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Isn’t Canada your second team?

Well, I consider Canada and the Netherlands to be on par with eachother as far as my allegiance in football goes.

I think you are missing the point. There are simply too many good players for a LB whose only been starting for 2/3 of the season to actually be in contention for the award. He’s very good, but his resume doesn’t warrant the award.

I'm not missing any point. Again, he's played nearly as many senior minutes as Sancho, he's played around 300 more minutes than Camavinga (this was an edit, was only looking at Camavinga's league minutes) and almost 600 more minutes than Haaland. He's started in the CL and just been named Bayern's player of the month (when was the last time a teenager won this award anyway?) including a match where he outplayed Haaland head to head, and did the same to Sancho earlier in the season. You can't just say threre's 'too many good players' for an LB when he's outperformed them, at 19, on one of the best teams on the planet.

Go down the list. Boadu, Camavinga, Dest, Greenwood, Martinelli, Reinier, Szoboszlai, Tonali, Torres, Vinicius. Plenty of very good youngsters on the list, some of which had excellent seasons, who don’t and shouldn’t have a realistic chance to win.

I'm not sure what your point is there. Have any of those been arguably one of the top 2 players for Bayern Munich on the way to a title, possibly a CL, and outperformed supposed favourites for the golden boy award in head to head match-ups and in the same league while also putting in dominating performances in the CL? It's like you're completely trying to play off what Davies has shown, done on the pitch and how he's been received and scoffing at him just being some random LB who wasn't initially a starter (but then earned his place, and has hit the ground running ever since...)

What about his pedigree doesn't make him worthy of the award?
 

Cassano

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Aug 31, 2013
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I'm not sure what more Davies needs to do. By pretty much every metric, he is among the top defenders in football this year.

You can witness via eyetest who much of an impact he has with Bayern's build-up game.

Defensively, he is cover up for the mistakes of his own teammates with his speed and positioning.

I guess he'd be having more respect if he had a multi-digit assist season like TAA and Kimmich had in recent years. But fullbacks and defensive midfielders will never get the deserved recognition in these player awards.
 

Deficient Mode

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Mar 25, 2011
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How is it pure homerism? His performance has been prodigious, he's looked better than Haaland and Sancho in direct match-ups, he's excelled in the CL and against all the best teams in the BuLi, he's producing offensively at leftback and he's likely saved sure goals. The only reason there isn't more hype around what he's done and how he's looked against the top competition is because he's a defender. Not sure why you removed the other stuff from the quote.

Kind of funny to see you go from arguing that Sancho is as good as Mbappe at the same age to saying Davies is better than Sancho in such a short span. Almost as funny as you trying to credit Davies with a CL win or talking about how he outplayed them head-to-head.

Haaland and Sancho don't just have "goals"; they've scored/assisted against high quality competition at rates that only a few players in the world reach at a given time. None of the people who are calling for a defensive player to win this award ever think the best defensive players are better than the best offensive players in any other context.
 

YNWA14

Onbreekbaar
Dec 29, 2010
34,543
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Kind of funny to see you go from arguing that Sancho is as good as Mbappe at the same age to saying Davies is better than Sancho in such a short span. Almost as funny as you trying to credit Davies with a CL win or talking about how he outplayed them head-to-head.

Care to show me where I said that Davies was better than Sancho? It’s funny where I bring context and my opinion backed by statistics and facts you act high and mighty amused while bringing up completely different discussions that have nothing to do with the topic. I ask questions and bring in numbers and you move the goalposts or ignore them entirely.

It’s almost as funny as if I were you that I’d act indignant about how you were responding and refuse to continue the conversation any longer.

Haaland and Sancho don't just have "goals"; they've scored/assisted against high quality competition at rates that only a few players in the world reach at a given time. None of the people who are calling for a defensive player to win this award ever think the best defensive players are better than the best offensive players in any other context.

This isn’t true at all. I routinely prefer many non-offensive matters to their offensive counterparts. I thought van Dijk deserved to win the Ballon d’Or as did many people (and think he’s the best player on Liverpool). Was happy for Modric though I felt he was less deserving. I was pushing Firmino and Wijnaldum long before that became popular. That comment is so far removed from reality I don’t even know how to properly address it.

Again what about Davies performance this season (which you comically labeled as he has ‘done well’) or his resume doesn’t qualify him for this award (besides apparently his playing stats despite racking up more minutes than others you’re asserting are beyond his level)? Keeping in mind that there are, believe it or not, a lot of aspects of the game besides goals and assists which Davies also contributes to at a high level from his position.
 

Evilo

Registered User
Mar 17, 2002
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Why would Haaland be ranked above him? Sancho has played all season against the level of competition that Haaland will play half a season against. Let’s see a full season of Haaland producing like that before comparing his season to Sancho. He’s great, but Sancho is more proven.

And Sancho is English. Haaland is Norwegian. If there’s any country bias here, it should favor Sancho with the English media having a lot of influence over football culture.
Because Haaland produces when it matters?
Because when the team against them is good, Haaland shows up?
 

Evilo

Registered User
Mar 17, 2002
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To me Camavinga doing what he does at 16/17 is more impressive than any offensive stat.
He has a midtable team around him?They'll play CL football.
He is facing PSG? He's MOTM.

Obviously he won't win because he's not an offensive player but at 16 Haaland, Sancho and Davies sure weren't dominating an entire top league and written down in every season XI.

Haaland will win it fairly easily as I said. He's come up big under the spotlight.
Just the other weekend it's him again that saved BVB's ass.
 

YNWA14

Onbreekbaar
Dec 29, 2010
34,543
2,560
To me Camavinga doing what he does at 16/17 is more impressive than any offensive stat.
He has a midtable team around him?They'll play CL football.
He is facing PSG? He's MOTM.

Obviously he won't win because he's not an offensive player but at 16 Haaland, Sancho and Davies sure weren't dominating an entire top league and written down in every season XI.

Haaland will win it fairly easily as I said. He's come up big under the spotlight.
Just the other weekend it's him again that saved BVB's ass.
I mean Davies was doing it at 16/17 in the MLS but I think it’s generous to consider that a top league. He didn’t have the opportunity then. Though I read that PSG tried to sign him and were furious that Vancouver finalized to Bayern before discussing it with them.
 

Deficient Mode

Registered User
Mar 25, 2011
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Care to show me where I said that Davies was better than Sancho?.

You said twice that "it should be Davies" and "it's between Davies and Camavinga for me" for an award that is essentially the best player that season, the only one of Davies' career...

Again what about Davies performance this season (which you comically labeled as he has ‘done well’) or his resume doesn’t qualify him for this award (besides apparently his playing stats despite racking up more minutes than others you’re asserting are beyond his level)? Keeping in mind that there are, believe it or not, a lot of aspects of the game besides goals and assists which Davies also contributes to at a high level from his position.

Nope. That was PB. I don't believe I've ever commented on Davies performances on this forum. I will say that I don't think he was the second best Bayern player this season, though. I guess that evens it up for me putting you in with everyone else who otherwise prefer the best attacking players to the best defenders. I'm really not that interested in the substance of the argument and there aren't good public statistics to compare an attacking player to a defensive player.
 

Pensionsraddare

Registered User
May 18, 2018
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Karlstad
Much talk about Davies. Here’s another LB with the exact same stats for you: Bukayo Saka

He’s also played 9 games fewer than Davies.

Davies shouldn’t be in the discussion. It’s all about the two guys in Dortmund.
 

Pavel Buchnevich

Drury and Laviolette Must Go
Dec 8, 2013
57,224
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I'm not missing any point. Again, he's played nearly as many senior minutes as Sancho, he's played around 300 more minutes than Camavinga (this was an edit, was only looking at Camavinga's league minutes) and almost 600 more minutes than Haaland.

Actually, it's not that close. Davies has 2808 minutes, and Sancho has 3141. But again, I never said its specifically the minutes. It's all the context surrounding those minutes, which you are missing. Sancho has been a star, option #1 for his team since game 1. For two months to start the season Davies was a bench player. That clearly matters.

And I never said Camavinga should win. Take that up with Evilo, if you want. I mentioned him among players that won't realistically contend for the award, but like Davies, had a good season and could win it in a future season.

Haaland will have his minutes work against him, so don't worry about that one. He's a striker that has 22 goals in 21 games between the UCL, Bundesliga and German Cup. Thats an incredible rate for a player of any age and is usually the kind of rate you'd be talking about for the Ballon d'or, but thats only 1391 minutes. It's about half of the season Sancho's played at the top level, and Sancho's been as productive. If he had a full season, it might be close, and Haaland is probably the closest player there is to Sancho this season, but he also does not match up for this award.

He's started in the CL and just been named Bayern's player of the month (when was the last time a teenager won this award anyway?) including a match where he outplayed Haaland head to head, and did the same to Sancho earlier in the season. You can't just say threre's 'too many good players' for an LB when he's outperformed them, at 19, on one of the best teams on the planet.

This is exactly what I mean when I say you are missing the point. You are trying to read me a summary of his season. It's good, maybe very good. It's still not going to be good enough to realistically contend for this award. The same can be said about nearly 20 other players, which I named.

I'm not sure what your point is there. Have any of those been arguably one of the top 2 players for Bayern Munich on the way to a title, possibly a CL, and outperformed supposed favourites for the golden boy award in head to head match-ups and in the same league while also putting in dominating performances in the CL? It's like you're completely trying to play off what Davies has shown, done on the pitch and how he's been received and scoffing at him just being some random LB who wasn't initially a starter (but then earned his place, and has hit the ground running ever since...)

What about his pedigree doesn't make him worthy of the award?

You are right. None of them have played for Bayern Munich, but the award isn't about awarding the best young player at Bayern Munich. There are a lot of good players up for the award. You have to play a world class season. Not starting for the first two months of a season is probably enough to say a player won't contend to win the award, and then being a LB makes things doubly harder. Good season. Shouldn't contend for the award.

And one thing to keep in mind is that it was supposedly used against Sancho last season that he wasn't a starter at the beginning of the season, and he wasn't option #1 until the end of the season. He still managed 13G+19A last season, and he still didn't win.
 

Pavel Buchnevich

Drury and Laviolette Must Go
Dec 8, 2013
57,224
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New York
Because Haaland produces when it matters?
Because when the team against them is good, Haaland shows up?

Haaland has played about half the season that Sancho has at the top level. He shouldn't realistically contend for the award, unless he overwhelming was better than him in the second half of the season, which he wasn't.

And this nonsense that Haaland produced when it mattered and Sancho didn't tells me you are only looking at Champions League stats. If you don't think Sancho has produced when it mattered, I don't know what to tell you. You've missed a full season if you think Sancho hasn't produced when it mattered. I don't know what else you'd ask of him.
 

Pavel Buchnevich

Drury and Laviolette Must Go
Dec 8, 2013
57,224
23,097
New York
Much talk about Davies. Here’s another LB with the exact same stats for you: Bukayo Saka

He’s also played 9 games fewer than Davies.

Davies shouldn’t be in the discussion. It’s all about the two guys in Dortmund.

Exactly, and Sergino Dest has 2G, 6A as a RB. He had an excellent season with Ajax. Won their prestigious Young Player of the Year Award. Linked with every top club in Europe. You don't see anyone suggesting he should win the award over star attackers. And if someone did, I'd call it out as just as ridiculous. There's no reason homerism should factor into these discussions.

No one ever argued that Marcelo was better than Messi or Lahm better than Ronaldo, but all of a sudden a LB is more valuable than an attacking midfielder or striker?

You can acknowledge a season as being very good, and still be realistic that a player shouldn't win an award.
 

Wee Baby Seamus

Yo, Goober, where's the meat?
Mar 15, 2011
14,704
5,712
Halifax/Toronto
Hot take: Haaland's smaller amount of minutes actually makes him more likely to win because his goals/minute rate is the main thing that's absurdly impressive and immediately eye catching about him
 

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