Going into this years playoffs, who would you rather take in their Prime? OV vs Datsyuk

Going into this years playoffs, who would you rather take in their Prime? OV vs Datsyuk


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WingsMJN2965

Registered User
Oct 13, 2017
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No you really can't. Nobody was saying that at the time.

Nostalgia is a helluva thing.

Yes, you really can. Not that hard to argue that the best defensive forward in the league who's only putting up 10-15 points less than Ovechkin is just the best in the world, period.

... Unless of course you're one of those ignorant folks who looks at points and points only.
 

daver

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Apr 4, 2003
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Yes, you really can. Not that hard to argue that the best defensive forward in the league who's only putting up 10-15 points less than Ovechkin is just the best in the world, period.

... Unless of course you're one of those ignorant folks who looks at points and points only.

So let's be clear here. OV put 28 more points in 07-09, so that's 14 more points including twice as many goals which reasonably should be give more weight.

In any event, why should be we believe that a forward can create 14 goals a season in value for his team from defensive play alone?
 

WingsMJN2965

Registered User
Oct 13, 2017
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So let's be clear here. OV put 28 more points in 07-09, so that's 14 more points including twice as many goals which reasonably should be give more weight.

In any event, why should be we believe that a forward can create 14 goals a season in value for his team from defensive play alone?

You're on the wrong track here. Defense isn't creating, it's preventing. But of course, you can't really measure those statistics, so going back to my point about only looking at points...

Datsyuk was on a lower tier than Ovechkin offensively. Ovechkin wasn't even in Datsyuk's world defensively.
 

daver

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Apr 4, 2003
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You're on the wrong track here. Defense isn't creating, it's preventing...

Datsyuk was on a lower tier than Ovechkin offensively. Ovechkin wasn't even in Datsyuk's world defensively.

The premise I got from your post is Dats' defense is more valuable than the 14 extra goals that OV brings to his team.
 

Midnight Judges

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Feb 10, 2010
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Datsyuk was on a lower tier than Ovechkin offensively. Ovechkin wasn't even in Datsyuk's world defensively.

That's not even accurate. Ovechkin's possession stats are excellent from his peak. Go back and look at his Corsi and fenwick.
 

KoozNetsOff 92

Hala Madrid
Apr 6, 2016
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Yes, you really can. Not that hard to argue that the best defensive forward in the league who's only putting up 10-15 points less than Ovechkin is just the best in the world, period.

... Unless of course you're one of those ignorant folks who looks at points and points only.

If it's not that hard to make the argument that Datsyuk was the best then where's his hart and Lindsay? Forget winning, was he even nominated in both years? No, because he wasn't close to being the best player.

I guess the voting media and the players who play against them must all be ignorant because they never chose Datsyuk.
 

PAZ

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Jul 14, 2011
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Yes, you really can. Not that hard to argue that the best defensive forward in the league who's only putting up 10-15 points less than Ovechkin is just the best in the world, period.

... Unless of course you're one of those ignorant folks who looks at points and points only.

With a way better supporting cast. Like I said earlier, Datsyuk scored 20 more points over Zetterberg + Hossa, while Ovechkin had 50 more points then Backstrom in their best years.

You talk about ignorant folks who look at points and points only, but that's half of your argument that Datsyuk 'only' put up 15 points less than Ovechkin, when in reality there's a way bigger offensive gap. Datsyuk's best season had an amazing supporting cast with 8 players over 50 points and a 289 GF. Ovechkin's best season had a supporting cast with 4 players above 50 points and a 238 GF.
 

ESH

Registered User
Jun 19, 2011
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Ovechkin wont be a dominating possession player with even good linemates, Datsyuk is going to neutralize the other teams offense while putting up respectable offense regardless who you put with him ie 14-15 with Holmstrom Abdelkader as linemates scoring 65 in 63 with 19 mins of time on ice.

You do realize Ovechkin has been a way above average possession player almost his whole career right?
 

eviohh26

Registered User
Dec 19, 2017
3,578
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Victoria BC Canada
Datsyuk. He can shut down your best player while putting up ppg in the playoffs. Ask Mr. Stamkos how life was last time they played Detroit in the playoff's. Datsyuk was on him every shift but one. Stamkos had 1 point in 5 games.
 

WingsMJN2965

Registered User
Oct 13, 2017
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That's not even accurate. Ovechkin's possession stats are excellent from his peak. Go back and look at his Corsi and fenwick.

Oh God, you really wanna get into advanced stats? You'd be hard-pressed to find any star player with bad possession stats, otherwise they wouldn't be a star... Especially not one with such a high OZ start rating...

But since you wanted to open the door for advanced stats, here we go. These are from 08/09. Admittedly I didn't do 07/08 because of time. They may very well favor Ovechkin, I don't know.

Corsi ES%/Fenwick ES%

Datsyuk - 60.4/59.1
Ovechkin - 57.3/56.4

Worth noting, both stats appear to heavily reflect the top teams as much if not moreso than the top players. Detroit and Washington make up damn near half of the top 50 players in Corsi/Fenwick. Mike Green's numbers are actually better than Ovechkin's. Green is not exactly heralded by most for his defensive play, and most would agree he is better defensively now than he was then.

Takeaways/Giveaways

Datsyuk - 89/49
Ovechkin - 60/107

Now, here's where it gets fun. We're going into this with the assumption that Ovechkin was the hands down better offensive player that season.

Offensive/Defensive Zone Starts

Datsyuk -
51.4%/48.6%
Ovechkin - 59.3%/40.7%

Even Strength TOI/Points

Datsyuk -
1152 minutes/59 points
Ovechkin - 1316 minutes/63 points

Power Play TOI/Points

Datsyuk -
274 minutes/36 points
Ovechkin - 428 minutes/46 points

Didn't bother with PKTOI as they had a combined 3 points. Datsyuk played a little under double the minutes. Now, if you'll allow a bit of speculation, apply Datsyuk's pace to Ovechkin's minutes and he hits 67 ES points and 56 PP points, putting him 14 points over Ovechkin...

So essentially, Datsyuk is obviously the better defensive player. And offensively when you consider the amount of ice time each was allotted, you can reasonably suggest Datsyuk was more effective offensively given the time allotted... All while having a much less favorable zone starts...
 
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JackSlater

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Apr 27, 2010
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Ovechkin comfortably. I found Datsyuk disappointing as a playoff performer, at least during his peak years.
 

eviohh26

Registered User
Dec 19, 2017
3,578
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Victoria BC Canada
Oh God, you really wanna get into advanced stats? You'd be hard-pressed to find any star player with bad possession stats, otherwise they wouldn't be a star... Especially not one with such a high OZ start rating...

But since you wanted to open the door for advanced stats, here we go. These are from 08/09. Admittedly I didn't do 07/08 because of time. They may very well favor Ovechkin, I don't know.

Corsi ES%/Fenwick ES%

Datsyuk - 60.4/59.1
Ovechkin - 57.3/56.4

Worth noting, both stats appear to heavily reflect the top teams as much if not moreso than the top players. Detroit and Washington make up damn near half of the top 50 players in Corsi/Fenwick. Mike Green's numbers are actually better than Ovechkin's. Green is not exactly heralded by most for his defensive play, and most would agree he is better defensively now than he was then.

Takeaways/Giveaways

Datsyuk - 89/49
Ovechkin - 60/107

Now, here's where it gets fun. We're going into this with the assumption that Ovechkin was the hands down better offensive player that season.

Offensive/Defensive Zone Starts

Datsyuk -
51.4%/48.6%
Ovechkin - 59.3%/40.7%

Even Strength TOI/Points

Datsyuk -
1152 minutes/59 points
Ovechkin - 1316 minutes/63 points

Power Play TOI/Points

Datsyuk -
274 minutes/36 points
Ovechkin - 428 minutes/46 points

Didn't bother with PKTOI as they had a combined 3 points. Datsyuk played a little under double the minutes. Now, if you'll allow a bit of speculation, apply Datsyuk's pace to Ovechkin's minutes and he hits 67 ES points and 56 PP points, putting him 14 points over Ovechkin...

So essentially, Datsyuk is obviously the better defensive player. And offensively when you consider the amount of ice time each was allotted, you can reasonably suggest Datsyuk was more effective offensively given the time allotted... All while having a much less favorable zone starts...
Get em!
 

KoozNetsOff 92

Hala Madrid
Apr 6, 2016
8,567
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Datsyuk was the best! Too bad the media or the players didn't see it that way.. Where's his hart? Lindsay? Why doesn't he have even 2 nominations? Oh right, because he was never close to being the best.
 
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KoozNetsOff 92

Hala Madrid
Apr 6, 2016
8,567
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Oh God, you really wanna get into advanced stats? You'd be hard-pressed to find any star player with bad possession stats, otherwise they wouldn't be a star... Especially not one with such a high OZ start rating...

But since you wanted to open the door for advanced stats, here we go. These are from 08/09. Admittedly I didn't do 07/08 because of time. They may very well favor Ovechkin, I don't know.

Corsi ES%/Fenwick ES%

Datsyuk - 60.4/59.1
Ovechkin - 57.3/56.4

Worth noting, both stats appear to heavily reflect the top teams as much if not moreso than the top players. Detroit and Washington make up damn near half of the top 50 players in Corsi/Fenwick. Mike Green's numbers are actually better than Ovechkin's. Green is not exactly heralded by most for his defensive play, and most would agree he is better defensively now than he was then.

Takeaways/Giveaways

Datsyuk - 89/49
Ovechkin - 60/107

Now, here's where it gets fun. We're going into this with the assumption that Ovechkin was the hands down better offensive player that season.

Offensive/Defensive Zone Starts

Datsyuk -
51.4%/48.6%
Ovechkin - 59.3%/40.7%

Even Strength TOI/Points

Datsyuk -
1152 minutes/59 points
Ovechkin - 1316 minutes/63 points

Power Play TOI/Points

Datsyuk -
274 minutes/36 points
Ovechkin - 428 minutes/46 points

Didn't bother with PKTOI as they had a combined 3 points. Datsyuk played a little under double the minutes. Now, if you'll allow a bit of speculation, apply Datsyuk's pace to Ovechkin's minutes and he hits 67 ES points and 56 PP points, putting him 14 points over Ovechkin...

So essentially, Datsyuk is obviously the better defensive player. And offensively when you consider the amount of ice time each was allotted, you can reasonably suggest Datsyuk was more effective offensively given the time allotted... All while having a much less favorable zone starts...

:laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:
 
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bambamcam4ever

107 and counting
Feb 16, 2012
14,301
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Yes, you really can. Not that hard to argue that the best defensive forward in the league who's only putting up 10-15 points less than Ovechkin is just the best in the world, period.

... Unless of course you're one of those ignorant folks who looks at points and points only.
Defense is a team activity. It's pretty difficult to argue that Datsyuk individually prevented 15 more goals than OV.
 

gifted88

Dante the poet
Feb 12, 2010
7,301
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Guelph, ON
I'd take Datsyuk. Center would be a team need, he's defensively sound, and no slouch offensively. I don't think you get the same package with OV.
 

KoozNetsOff 92

Hala Madrid
Apr 6, 2016
8,567
8,229
Glad to see you have no response, bud.

Oh wait wait, your response to actual statistics is, "Where's his media voted awards." :laugh:

And your response to actual statistics (goals, pts) is fantasy. Prove that Datsyuk makes up 15pts with his D? Yeah, media voted awards are funny now because Datsyuk never came close to winning anything, but wings fans never stfu about Fedorov's hart or Lidstroms 7 Norris trophies.
 

WingsMJN2965

Registered User
Oct 13, 2017
18,106
17,699
And your response to actual statistics (goals, pts) is fantasy. Prove that Datsyuk makes up 15pts with his D? Yeah, media voted awards are funny now because Datsyuk never came close to winning anything, but wings fans never **** about Fedorov's hart or Lidstroms 7 Norris trophies.

Actually in researching his defensive statistics I proved that he was more effective offensively that year. :laugh: Your argument is dead.

By the way, I've said several times that Lidstrom never should've beaten out Weber for his 7th Norris. He won it based on his track record which just furthers the argument that the awards are often BS.
 
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TopShelfYzerman

Gm 7 Double OT
Jan 3, 2011
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Defense is a team activity. It's pretty difficult to argue that Datsyuk individually prevented 15 more goals than OV.
You take any fringe NHL player and give him the same situation ice times zone starts as ovechkin and he is 60 + pt player. Pretty good for a fringe player. Yes ice time impacts total points more than we like to think. How would Datstuk have fared with an extra 3.5 hrs straight on the pp? Roughly 10 games straight on the pp. It makes a 14 pt gap seem quite low.
 

authentic

Registered User
Jan 28, 2015
25,393
10,412
Oh God, you really wanna get into advanced stats? You'd be hard-pressed to find any star player with bad possession stats, otherwise they wouldn't be a star... Especially not one with such a high OZ start rating...

But since you wanted to open the door for advanced stats, here we go. These are from 08/09. Admittedly I didn't do 07/08 because of time. They may very well favor Ovechkin, I don't know.

Corsi ES%/Fenwick ES%

Datsyuk - 60.4/59.1
Ovechkin - 57.3/56.4

Worth noting, both stats appear to heavily reflect the top teams as much if not moreso than the top players. Detroit and Washington make up damn near half of the top 50 players in Corsi/Fenwick. Mike Green's numbers are actually better than Ovechkin's. Green is not exactly heralded by most for his defensive play, and most would agree he is better defensively now than he was then.

Takeaways/Giveaways

Datsyuk - 89/49
Ovechkin - 60/107

Now, here's where it gets fun. We're going into this with the assumption that Ovechkin was the hands down better offensive player that season.

Offensive/Defensive Zone Starts

Datsyuk -
51.4%/48.6%
Ovechkin - 59.3%/40.7%

Even Strength TOI/Points

Datsyuk -
1152 minutes/59 points
Ovechkin - 1316 minutes/63 points

Power Play TOI/Points

Datsyuk -
274 minutes/36 points
Ovechkin - 428 minutes/46 points

Didn't bother with PKTOI as they had a combined 3 points. Datsyuk played a little under double the minutes. Now, if you'll allow a bit of speculation, apply Datsyuk's pace to Ovechkin's minutes and he hits 67 ES points and 56 PP points, putting him 14 points over Ovechkin...

So essentially, Datsyuk is obviously the better defensive player. And offensively when you consider the amount of ice time each was allotted, you can reasonably suggest Datsyuk was more effective offensively given the time allotted... All while having a much less favorable zone starts...

This is what gets me when people say Datsyuk wasn't on the level of a peak Ovechkin, and there are a lot of them. How can any objective, knowledgeable hockey fan read the above and not come to the conclusion that they are atleast very close? Truly makes me wonder.
 

authentic

Registered User
Jan 28, 2015
25,393
10,412
And your response to actual statistics (goals, pts) is fantasy. Prove that Datsyuk makes up 15pts with his D? Yeah, media voted awards are funny now because Datsyuk never came close to winning anything, but wings fans never **** about Fedorov's hart or Lidstroms 7 Norris trophies.

At the very least he makes that up over a full season. The question is how much more does he make up?
 

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