GOAT goalscorer?

[Theokritos]

GOAT is not defined by "how many goals they would score, if they chose to." It's defined by "how many goals they actually scored." (...) So "what you consider" in this case is immaterial.

Actually no, that's not the way it is. There isn't a set definition that is universally accepted. Otherwise we wouldn't have this discussion in the first place.

You can certainly make a case for Esposito, Hull and Ovechkin based on tangible metrics, that is, actual number of goals. But as you often say yourself: there is more to hockey than mere stats. Another approach is to look at the specific abilities and skill sets of the players. Neither approach can be authoritatively be declared right or wrong since the term "greatest" is rather nebulous.

 

[JuniorNelson]

Cyclone Taylor.

 

[daver]

I was thinking about OV's eight Rocket titles vs. Hull's seven Rocket titles.

On the surface, the competition for OV doesn't seem very strong. I.e. it seems no other player during his era is separating themselves from the pack significantly (other than Stamkos' 11/12 season) to a level where they also are being mentioned among the elite all-time goalscorers. During his era, I think the consensus 2nd best goalscorer would be among the group of Crosby, Stamkos, Kovalchuk and Iginla, the latter two who obviously played before OV's era but were in their primes vs. OV.

Where would any of these four players rate all-time as goalscorers, and where would the Hull's competition rate?

Was there a significant difference in their relative competition?

 

[bobholly39]

I was thinking about OV's eight Rocket titles vs. Hull's seven Rocket titles.

On the surface, the competition for OV doesn't seem very strong. I.e. it seems no other player during his era is separating themselves from the pack significantly (other than Stamkos' 11/12 season) to a level where they also are being mentioned among the elite all-time goalscorers. During his era, I think the consensus 2nd best goalscorer would be among the group of Crosby, Stamkos, Kovalchuk and Iginla, the latter two who obviously played before OV's era but were in their primes vs. OV.

Where would any of these four players rate all-time as goalscorers, and where would the Hull's competition rate?

Was there a significant difference in their relative competition?

I dont think the 'weak competition at goal scoring' should affect Ov much if at all for a few reasons.

30 team league = more overall competition (moreso than Hull for example - maybe not every single year if there were some very strong years competition wise for Hull - but overall yes)
Maybe OV has no real competition career wise for goal scorer in the past 15 years but it shouldn't affect individual season competition much. I mean look no further than Crosby and art rosses. Crosby lost to Sedin and Benn. Neither of which are great point scorers career wise - but for individual peak seasons? Absolutely a threat. Sedins art ross was quite a strong one.

Similar way Ov in any given season has had competition but rose above them to win 8 rockets. Truly remarkable

To me Ovis true weakness is his peak. Its an incredibly strong peak overall - but i still think Lemieux and Gretzky did better at their goal scoring peak. Which is why i don't crown Ov #1 yet. I will though. Enough longevity as a goal scorer will overcome the stronger peak 66 and 99 have by the time OV retires. Maybe it already has - though its probably easier to just wait.

Ovis resurgence in the last 2 years is going to be huge for his legacy. I didn't see that coming after 2016 tbh

 

[BehindTheTimes]

I have it Lemieux, Gretzky, Hull, Ovy and I think when it's all said and done Ovy may very well end up on top. There should be more volatility at the top imo on a year to year basis, much like the Art Ross has shown, but yet he still has 8 Richard's, if he wins another 1 it likely seals the deal for me, if he wins 2 more, it would be hard to argue against him for sure.

8 x 50 goal seasons
2 x 45+ goal seasons
1 x 32 goal season in a 48 game lockout season.

2005-2006 only 5 players score 50
2007-2008 0nly 3 score 50+ he scores 65 arguably the best goal scoring performance ever imo
2008-2009 only he scores 50 +
2009-2010 only 3 score 50 2 of them Sid and Stamkos Ovy was 1 goal behind in 9/10 less games. He wins this in a walk too if he plays 82
2012-2013 lockout shortened season, only player to crack 30
2013-2014 only 50+ goalscorer
2014-2015 only 50+ goalscorer
2015-2016 only 50+ goal scorer
2018-2019 only him and Draisaitl.

I mean this is incredible. 8 x 50 goal seasons. My math says there has only been 22 times when someone has hit 50 goals since 2005-2006 and Ovy has 8 to himself. Math could be off a bit, but this is unreal.

I didn't run the numbers for anyone else, but the fact he is scoring at this level while noone else can do it other than a season or two here and there is quite the feat imo.

 

[NHL WAR]

Rob Scuderi

 

[psycat]

Gretzky
Ovechkin
Lemieux

Hull Sr

Esposito
Hull Jr
Richard
Howe

something like this but pretty much interchangeable in both tiers.

 

[daver]

I dont think the 'weak competition at goal scoring' should affect Ov much if at all for a few reasons.

30 team league = more overall competition (moreso than Hull for example - maybe not every single year if there were some very strong years competition wise for Hull - but overall yes)
Maybe OV has no real competition career wise for goal scorer in the past 15 years but it shouldn't affect individual season competition much. I mean look no further than Crosby and art rosses. Crosby lost to Sedin and Benn. Neither of which are great point scorers career wise - but for individual peak seasons? Absolutely a threat. Sedins art ross was quite a strong one.

Similar way Ov in any given season has had competition but rose above them to win 8 rockets. Truly remarkable

To me Ovis true weakness is his peak. Its an incredibly strong peak overall - but i still think Lemieux and Gretzky did better at their goal scoring peak. Which is why i don't crown Ov #1 yet. I will though. Enough longevity as a goal scorer will overcome the stronger peak 66 and 99 have by the time OV retires. Maybe it already has - though its probably easier to just wait.

Ovis resurgence in the last 2 years is going to be huge for his legacy. I didn't see that coming after 2016 tbh

My point was to ask if there was a player or two that Hull and/or OV lost Rockets to. E.G. Bossy clearly lost out on a Rocket or two by to Wayne but we can (or should) still rate him appropriately beyond goalscoring titles. Or lots of players lost out on Art Rosses when Wayne and Mario were in the league.

I do think Hull and OV stand out from every other "goalscorer" at this point so I wanted to dig down deeper into their Rocket titles.

As for your competition comment, I agree the size of the league can be statistically relevant when comparing Top 5/10 finishes but disagree that it can apply to #1 placements. I would not devalue any Rocket or Art Ross titles on the surface based on the "competition" variable.

 

[daver]

I was thinking about OV's eight Rocket titles vs. Hull's seven Rocket titles.

On the surface, the competition for OV doesn't seem very strong. I.e. it seems no other player during his era is separating themselves from the pack significantly (other than Stamkos' 11/12 season) to a level where they also are being mentioned among the elite all-time goalscorers. During his era, I think the consensus 2nd best goalscorer would be among the group of Crosby, Stamkos, Kovalchuk and Iginla, the latter two who obviously played before OV's era but were in their primes vs. OV.

Where would any of these four players rate all-time as goalscorers, and where would the Hull's competition rate?

Was there a significant difference in their relative competition?

After looking at Hull's numbers year by year, I think he still is superior statistically to OV despite one less Rocket but OV can close that gap with longevity depending on how one views Hull's WHA performances. Hull also has the edge in the playoffs.

Hull loses a shared Rocket title to a generational season by Esposito in 71/72 and possibly two Rockets to injuries. OV loses one Rocket to injury and was not a factor in the only generational season (Stamkos) that happened during his era.

 

[BehindTheTimes]

The more I look at this the more convinced I am that this is Ovy all day.

 

[Merya]

The more I look at this the more convinced I am that this is Ovy all day.

I'm more of the opinion, that OV will end this conversation once and for all in the next couple seasons. He has the chance to do the unthinkable even. (further down the road)

 

[daver]

I'm more of the opinion, that OV will end this conversation once and for all in the next couple seasons. He has the chance to do the unthinkable even. (further down the road)

I don't think he has a case for best goalscoring season ever which should be the cornerstone of a GOAT claim.

 

[BehindTheTimes]

I don't think he has a case for best goalscoring season ever which should be the cornerstone of a GOAT claim.

I disagree because he does, 2007-2008 is easily in the discussion, but even if it wasn't, it doesn't matter for me.

 

[Merya]

I don't think he has a case for best goalscoring season ever which should be the cornerstone of a GOAT claim.

IF, a big if, OV breaks Gretzkys career goal record, noone will listen to your season argument.

 

[Bear of Bad News]

I'm more of the opinion, that OV will end this conversation once and for all in the next couple seasons.

You've been here long enough to know that this conversation will never end (at least based on whatever Ovechkin does).

 

[Merya]

You've been here long enough to know that this conversation will never end (at least based on whatever Ovechkin does).

Well perhaps. But it would be the biggest bomb in hockey since Gretzky himself. It's very premature still, but there is a slim chance, something we have never seen possible before.

 

[daver]

I disagree because he does, 2007-2008 is easily in the discussion, but even if it wasn't, it doesn't matter for me.

07/08 is Top 5 - 10 but Wayne (81/82) and Bobby and Bretts Hull's are ahead, IMO.

That aside, why shouldn't that matter?

 

[Asheville]

It's Wayne Gretzky.

Just imagine if he decided he didn't want to be the greatest playmaker?

Even as the greatest playmaker, he leads the regular season and playoffs in all-time goals.

It's all absurd. Don't overthink it, folks.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

It's Wayne Gretzky.

Just imagine if he decided he didn't want to be the greatest playmaker?

Even as the greatest playmaker, he leads the regular season and playoffs in all-time goals.

It's all absurd. Don't overthink it, folks.

In goals per game, Gretzky is 7th. Sixth in playoffs.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

07/08 is Top 5 - 10 but Wayne (81/82) and Bobby and Bretts Hull's are ahead, IMO.

That aside, why shouldn't that matter?

How about Bure in 99/00.

58 goals. 2nd best was 44.

And he missed 8 games.

00/01 Bure scored 59. Teammate that was next in goals for Florida had 14.

 

[beldenhandler]

Ovechkin & Bossy

 

[Fantomas]

It's Wayne Gretzky.

Just imagine if he decided he didn't want to be the greatest playmaker?

Even as the greatest playmaker, he leads the regular season and playoffs in all-time goals.

It's all absurd. Don't overthink it, folks.

Ty Cobb is also the greatest home run hitter. He just decided to not hit 800 of them.

 

[Asheville]

Ty Cobb is also the greatest home run hitter. He just decided to not hit 800 of them.

Well, Gretzky is the platinum standard in terms of assists, and messed while he was doing that and went ahead and scored more goals in the regular season and playoffs than anyone else in history.

Dumb Gretzky. Focused too much on unselfish playmaking. He should have gone Gartner style and compiled to the point that this whole "GOAT goalscorer" debate would go away.

 

[daver]

How about Bure in 99/00.

58 goals. 2nd best was 44.

And he missed 8 games.

00/01 Bure scored 59. Teammate that was next in goals for Florida had 14.

That would challenge OV's season, as would Stamkos' 60 goals.

Here is how those three stack up:

% over 2nd place:

Bure - 32%
OV - 25 %
Stamkos - 20%

% over 2nd place in GPG (among Top 10 goalscorers):

OV - 20%
Bure - 16%
Stamkos - 9%

% over avg. of other Top Ten goalscorers:

Stamkos - 54%
OV - 48%
Bure - 43%

% over avg. of other Top Ten goalscorers' GPG:

Stamkos - 49%
Bure - 47%
OV - 39%

All three of those seasons have a claim as best in the past 20 years, all things considered. OV had the highest total and best GPG gap, Bure had the biggest % raw gap in goals but benefited from Jagr missing games, Stamkos had to go against one of the best goalscoring seasons of his era from Malkin but separated himself the most from the pack.

They likely would not crack the Top 5 all-time, or even Top Ten, all things considered. This, IMO, would potentially keep OV from being considered the consensus all-time best.

 

[Albatros]

Dumb Gretzky. Focused too much on unselfish playmaking. He should have gone Gartner style and compiled to the point that this whole "GOAT goalscorer" debate would go away.

Gartner "compiled" rather decent 627 assists to go with his goals and never led the league in shots on goal, unlike the unselfish Gretzky a number of times.