Goalscorers' teammates

Sentinel

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In evaluating the best goalscorers of all time I think it's important to consider the people they played with. This may demonstrate who did more with less. My ranking of the "environment" of the snipers would be something like this:

Richard > Kurri > Esposito > Gretzky > Bossy > Hull Sr. > Hull Jr. > Selanne > Lemieux > Ovechkin > Bure

By "environment" I don't just mean "linemates." A great PMD like Orr, Coffey, or Housley certainly help one's scoring. And I am not implying that both Hulls had similar environment. But playing with (young) Esposito and having Mikita on another line is a tad above playing with Oates and McInnis.

Your thoughts?

EDIT: Gretzky over Bossy
 
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BigBadBruins7708

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personally I'd limit it to the other 4 players they saw the most ice time with. not sure how much of an effect it would have on your ranking though.

If we're going with your larger scope, I'd flip Gretzky and Bossy.

Gretzky was on the ice with Kurri, Tikkanen and Coffey. And had Messier and Anderson on the 2nd line.

edit: I'd say there's an argument to be made for Gretzky above Espo too.

Orr > Coffey
Kurri > Bucyk
Tikannen = Hodge
Messier + Anderson >> Cashman and Hodge
 
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BigBadBruins7708

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Crap, I actually meant to put Gretzky over Bossy. Even though none of Gretzky's mates are on Trottier's level, their combined effect is probably greater

idk, that's a pretty fun debate to have though

Kurri + Coffey vs Trottier + Potvin

looking at pure offense, I'd lean towards Kurri and Coffey. Mostly because Coffey was a step above Potvin in that respect.
 

rnhaas

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I agree about the ice-time thing; who did they play with most. Is there a good source for (real or estimated) ice-time prior to 1998-99?

Then you can presumably rank those 4 players in some kind of offense-generating way (Goals Created Per Game or APG or something).
 

Sentinel

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edit: I'd say there's an argument to be made for Gretzky above Espo too.

Orr > Coffey
Kurri > Bucyk
Tikannen = Hodge
Messier + Anderson >> Cashman and Hodge
Sorry, dude, this is where I draw a fat line. Orr had greater effect on Esposito than the entire Oilers roster combined had on Gretzky. Add Bucyk and Hodge... and it's not at all close.
 
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DannyGallivan

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Sorry, dude, this is where I draw a fat line. Orr had greater effect on Esposito than the entire Oilers roster combined had on Gretzky. Add Bucyk and Hodge... and it's not at all close.
It was Gretzky who had the greatest effect on the Oilers roster, not the other way around.

Orr certainly helped Espo, but don't forget that Phil was the leading scorer and dominant player in the Summit Series... without Orr and against the Soviet Union's very best.
 

BigBadBruins7708

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Sorry, dude, this is where I draw a fat line. Orr had greater effect on Esposito than the entire Oilers roster combined had on Gretzky. Add Bucyk and Hodge... and it's not at all close.

its not as clear cut as it seems.

Espo had a Ross + Hart season before Orr was Orr (49-77-126, +55 in 1969 when Orr only had 21-43-64)

Much like Espo, Gretzky never approached the same heights without Coffey and Kurri that he did with them.

he dropped from seasons of 212, 196, 205, 208, 215, 183 to seasons between 120 and 160 points in LA.

Obviously his LA seasons are nothing to scoff at and are phenomenal seasons, but they aren't close to the heights he reached in Edmonton
 

Sentinel

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I am not saying Esposito was a product of Orr, and you are not saying Gretzky was a product of Coffey and Kurri. But Orr was objectivity better / more dominant than all the Oilers. Oh, and Gretzky did just fine the season after Coffey was traded.
 

JackSlater

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I'm not sure that I care if another great player was on a different line in some cases. With Gretzky for instance he was clearly Edmonton's primary threat. Did other teams put less effort into shutting down Gretzky because Messier was waiting on the next line? I'm skeptical. Hull and Mikita would be a somewhat similar situation. That these players could share PP time is worthy of consideration though. I do think that this factor is significant in the playoffs, but that is for a different thread.

Overall I don't know that teammates inflate top goal scorers' totals by a whole lot. There are enough historical examples of specific goal scorers playing with and without top a top playmaker and often the effect doesn't seem that large.
 

TheDevilMadeMe

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Rocket Richard usually had amazing centers like Lach or his younger brother. But Lach was frequently injured, and the Rocket helped make a 1st Team All Star out of Ken Mosdell during one of Lach's bigger injury seasons

Kurri played with Gretzky and Coffey; huge help on paper, yet Kurri had to play much more defensively because he was the safety value for Gretzky and Coffey.

Overall, I'd say Phil Esposito had by far the easiest scoring environment of any of the guys listed in the OP - Bobby Orr, little to no defensive responsibilities, massive ice time, 6 new expansion teams to beat up on.
 
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Iron Mike Sharpe

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I am not saying Esposito was a product of Orr, and you are not saying Gretzky was a product of Coffey and Kurri. But Orr was objectivity better / more dominant than all the Oilers. Oh, and Gretzky did just fine the season after Coffey was traded.

... & 28-year old Kuri led the Oilers in scoring 76-44-58-102 with Jimmy Carson as his center the season after Gretzky was traded. The previous season, as Gretzky's linemate, Kurri was 80-43-53-96. After the Oilers dumped Carson & the Simpson-Messier-Anderson line took over the number one spot, Kurri & his perennial left wing sidekick Tikkanen rolled into the playoffs & ran to the Finals - with Mark Lamb as their center. Kurri was 78-33-60-93 second in team scoring in regular season & went 22-10-15-25 en route to winning his fifth Cup.
 

Iron Mike Sharpe

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Or, to put it in a more graphic context:

86-87 - with Gretzky, Tikkanen & Coffey - 79-54-54-108
87-88 - with Gretzky & Tikkanen - 80-43-53-96
88-89 - with Carson & Tikkanen - 76-44-58-102
89-90 - with Tikkanen & Lamb/others - 78-33-60-93
 

The Panther

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Much like Espo, Gretzky never approached the same heights without Coffey and Kurri that he did with them.
Dude, this just isn't true.

In 1987-88, Gretzky played without Coffey entirely, and Kurri was having his weakest season between 1982 and 1990, yet Wayne scored at a higher per-game pace than in 1987 (with Coffey playing and with Kurri hot), and then scored 43 points in 19 playoff games.

Also, while his L.A. seasons appear as a drop-off (and are, overall), his first three seasons there are superb given the context of the trade. In particular, his third season, 1990-91, is probably his best overall in L.A. and I'd say is equivalent to Edmonton seasons like 1981, 1987, and 1988.

It's not comparable to Phil Esposito in New York!
 

Sentinel

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When discussing Richard, we're not talking just his prime with Lach. His last five seasons he played on arguably the greatest dynasty of all time. I am a little surprised it's debatable that he had THE greatest scoring environment around him.

But it would be cool if people posted their own lists.
 

Canadiens1958

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When discussing Richard, we're not talking just his prime with Lach. His last five seasons he played on arguably the greatest dynasty of all time. I am a little surprised it's debatable that he had THE greatest scoring environment around him.

But it would be cool if people posted their own lists.

Again team tactics come into play. 1956 - 1962 set team scoring records by rolling four lines in an era when teams other than Toronto rolled three.

This created a team benefit in an environment that surpressed individual achievements.
 

Sentinel

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Again team tactics come into play. 1956 - 1962 set team scoring records by rolling four lines in an era when teams other than Toronto rolled three.

This created a team benefit in an environment that surpressed individual achievements.
But nobody is questioning Richard's individual achievements! I'm merely commenting on his scoring environment, which was the best ever.
 

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