Management GM Pierre Dorion/Front Office Thread - Part IV

[FormentonTheFuture]

- Forsberg on a 1 year deal to prevent Daccord/Gustavsson from playing in the NHL

- Great 2 years deal for Zub, leading him to total free agency

- Re-signing a guy that we litterally squandered a 2nd round pick on?

Offseason is starting really well. Anybody not praising Dorion has no idea

Since I was totally wrong on last off-season effects on the team/roster, and didn't realize how much the character brought in is the reason why we'll be so good, I learned my lesson and trust the masterplan!

Who did they re-sign?

The first two moves were great, perfect term and dollars for both.

 

[JungleBeat]

Zaitsev is not a elite at anything. Classic Dorion acting like a fool.

 

[Xspyrit]

Who did they re-sign?

The first two moves were great, perfect term and dollars for both.

Gustavsson >>> Forsberg IMO

Zub on a 1 year deal*, giving time to both parties to discover his longer-term value and then find a better agreement >>> 2 years deal leading up to UFA

Anything >>>> re-signing Derek Stepan

But maybe I'm totally wrong (again)

* sort of like Duclair's 1 year bridge!

 

[God Says No]

Gustavsson >>> Forsberg IMO

Zub on a 1 year deal, giving time to both parties to discover his longer-term value and then find a better agreement >>> 2 years deal leading up to UFA

Anything >>>> re-signing Derek Stepan

But maybe I'm totally wrong (again)

No, I agree. Especially the Stepan point. The idea of re-signing Stepan at whatever value or length should not be discussed. Maybe it's just lip service (I hope).

 

[PlayersLtd]

Not sure whats very very bad about re-signing Connor Brown to a good contract, finding a good 2nd pair defencemen for free in Zub or even finding good depth players like JBrown and Watson. He also did what he had to do to guarantee we could ice a team at the beginning of the season if rookies didn't cut it in the NHL without moving significant assets or affecting the team long term.

People acting like Covid was PD's fault and not recognizing that the bad start is likely much more to do with a 10 month offseason, huge turnover in personnel, no facilities for much of the break, no real training camp and no rookie camp.

Exactly. With a young team we were in a particularly bad position to manage the challenges of a COVID season and for some it's like the uncertainty of everything early on never even happened. It was an awkward situation for PD to manage and we had that brutal road trip to kick it all off.

We should all just be happy that the team pulled through by some miracle, managed to actually create a fantastic foundation for next year and everything looks bright and rosy.

 

[Alfie11]

I think he just Dorioned it, as he does sometimes with overhyping adjectives. I would agree with the fact that Zaitsev had a strong season and was a good defensive defenceman (who is playing in an elevated role and is more suited as a #4 guy or #5-6 on an elite team). Personally, I think Zaitsev finally earned his keep in Sens jersey and he fits in nicely with the current roster.

I think he and Smith really do view him as an elite defender - like just the purely defensive side of being a defenceman. They've made similar comments before. It's pretty hard to totally separate the offensive and defensive sides to a modern day defenceman but I can see what they're getting at.

Not sure I agree but Z has been good for us; especially this past season. Overpaid but solid.

 

[Mark Stones Spleen]

Did Dorion seriously sign a young top 4 D to a 2YR deal that takes him right to UFA status at age 27?

Dude, you hated acquiring Zaitsev's long term contract that was given to him after only one good season in the NHL.

Now you're going to complain about a short term commitment after half of a normal NHL season?

If we signed Zub to Zaitsev's contract and he turned to shit, you'd be the first person here wondering how management didn't learn from the Zaitsev mistake.

 

[FormentonTheFuture]

Gustavsson >>> Forsberg IMO

Zub on a 1 year deal*, giving time to both parties to discover his longer-term value and then find a better agreement >>> 2 years deal leading up to UFA

Anything >>>> re-signing Derek Stepan

But maybe I'm totally wrong (again)

* sort of like Duclair's 1 year bridge!

We didn’t sign Stepan. What are you talking about?

Forsberg has no bearing on Gustavsson. Gustavsson shouldn’t the the backup if Murray is healthy and good. He’ll start if Murray gets hurt or flounders again

 

[God Says No]

We didn’t sign Stepan. What are you talking about?

Forsberg has no bearing on Gustavsson. Gustavsson shouldn’t the the backup if Murray is healthy and good. He’ll start if Murray gets hurt or flounders again

Dorion mentioned that he will talk to Stepan about a contract. Terrible idea if Dorion is serious. Feels like he's doubling down on the bad trade he made.

 

[Hale The Villain]

Dude, you hated acquiring Zaitsev's long term contract that was given to him after only one good season in the NHL.

Now you're going to complain about a short term commitment after half of a normal NHL season?

If we signed Zub to Zaitsev's contract and he turned to shit, you'd be the first person here wondering how management didn't learn from the Zaitsev mistake.

Management didn't sign Zaitsev's deal. They traded for it after he proved he didn't deserve it.

Little doubt in my mind Zub will continue to play at a top 4 level for a long time because his hockey IQ is his best quality and it's not going to change.

 

[Xspyrit]

Dude, you hated acquiring Zaitsev's long term contract that was given to him after only one good season in the NHL.

Now you're going to complain about a short term commitment after half of a normal NHL season?

If we signed Zub to Zaitsev's contract and he turned to shit, you'd be the first person here wondering how management didn't learn from the Zaitsev mistake.

There's one thing that is not understood on HF boards.

It doesn't matter what fans think. GMs are the ones hired and paid to make the (difficult) decisions. The thing is to be successful, they have to be more right than wrong. The better their batting average will be, the better their team will be.

Being a successful manager in any sphere requires foresight. If Dorion foresee player X (in this case Zub) to not be worth that type of contract, that's his decision. But again, we as fans, need his decisions to be the right one most of the time.

Maybe Zub's camp wouldn't sign anything else other than a 2 years deal taking him to free agency giving him maximum leverage for his next contract. To be a good manager, you also need a very strong sense of persuasion. Not saying it was possible or not, but it's not to the fans that you need to "sell something" (by saying Zaitsev is an elite defender, for example), but to your players.

We didn’t sign Stepan. What are you talking about?

Forsberg has no bearing on Gustavsson. Gustavsson shouldn’t the the backup if Murray is healthy and good. He’ll start if Murray gets hurt or flounders again

We'll already know that we're not re-signing Hogberg and Anisimov. Why is Stepan not in that group?

Gustavsson could have started in the AHL and get called up once Murray and/or Daccord get injured (goalies get often injured, as per the crazy physical demands of the position). Daccord or Gustavsson should be the backup next season. So many goalies spent several seasons being back-ups before turning into clearcut starters.

There's also Mandolese and Sogaard that needs to play... 4 goalies to play in Belleville? lol

 

[FormentonTheFuture]

There's one thing that is not understood on HF boards.

It doesn't matter what fans think. GMs are the ones hired and paid to make the (difficult) decisions. The thing is to be successful, they have to be more right than wrong. The better their batting average will be, the better their team will be.

Being a successful manager in any sphere requires foresight. If Dorion foresee player X (in this case Zub) to not be worth that type of contract, that's his decision. But again, we as fans, need his decisions to be the right one most of the time.

Maybe Zub's camp wouldn't sign anything else other than a 2 years deal taking him to free agency giving him maximum leverage for his next contract. To be a good manager, you also need a very strong sense of persuasion. Not saying it was possible or not, but it's not to the fans that you need to "sell something" (by saying Zaitsev is an elite defender, for example), but to your players.



We'll already know that we're not re-signing Hogberg and Anisimov. Why is Stepan not in that group?

Gustavsson could have started in the AHL and get called up once Murray and/or Daccord get injured (goalies get often injured, as per the crazy physical demands of the position). Daccord and/or Gustavsson should eb the backup next season. So many goalies spent several seasons being back-ups before turning into clearcut starters.

Not at such a young age. Murray will get like 70% of the starts or more if he's healthy and performing. You don't want a 22 year old goalie just sitting there.

Stepan would only be good on a very cheap one year deal. He could basically be Tierney's replacement if he is gone.

 

[Alfie11]

Forsberg has no bearing on Gustavsson. Gustavsson shouldn’t the the backup if Murray is healthy and good. He’ll start if Murray gets hurt or flounders again

I think Forsberg is very expensive insurance that could go any number of ways.

It mostly depends on Murrays health and the expansion draft.

-If Murray is injured or has another injury plagued year, Forsberg could get a decent amount of games.
-If one of the young goalies is taken in the expansion draft, Forsberg could be backup while D'Accord or Gus are #1 in Belleville.
-The other scenario is that Forsberg could be waived and or loaned to another teams farm team. That's the expensive option but it also makes sense. I don't think the Sens want to go into a year where Murray gets hurt and the only options are young goalies.

 

[IranCondraAffair]

Dorion mentioned that he will talk to Stepan about a contract. Terrible idea if Dorion is serious. Feels like he's doubling down on the bad trade he made.

If Stepan is back for, say, 1.5M and is willing to sit in the press box like Anisimov, why is that bad?

Right now we have Tkachuk, Norris, Batherson, Brown, Pinto, Stutzle, Paul, White, Dadonov, Formenton, Tierney, Watson + L. Brown as a 13th forward. Is Stepan really getting in the way of anyone here? Not Brown. If Brown can't outplay Pinto he'll be subject to waivers, but should we really care if a 24 yr old Brown is lost to waivers if he can't beat out a 20 yr old Pinto? If Pinto can't beat out Stepan and Brown, he gets sent to the AHL until someone gets hurt, which will happen eventually.

If we lose Tierney to expansion, Boom, Stepan just replaces him. Yeah, assuming we lose, say, Daccord or Gustavsson to expansion it would be a little redundant to have a 6th NHL center alongside White, Pinto Norris, Brown and Tierney, but it is hardly a bad idea to give yourself options.

 

[Xspyrit]

Management didn't sign Zaitsev's deal. They traded for it after he proved he didn't deserve it.

Little doubt in my mind Zub will continue to play at a top 4 level for a long time because his hockey IQ is his best quality and it's not going to change.

He's also as calm as a cucumber which is a very valuable trait for a defender. Zub was unphased from day 1, which was very impressive to me. Think about how nervous guys like Brannstrom and Mete are/were... Defending against elite skilled NHL players or players that hit like trucks is not an easy task.

I mean, think about Adam Lowry coming on the forecheck as you are in the corner, kinda stressful.

Not at such a young age. Murray will get like 70% of the starts or more if he's healthy and performing. You don't want a 22 year old goalie just sitting there.

Stepan would only be good on a very cheap one year deal. He could basically be Tierney's replacement if he is gone.

Not going to complain until it happens but I'm sincerely crossing my fingers it doesn't.

For Murray to get 70% of the starts, he would need to stay healthy all season (something he hasn't done in years) and also playing really well like he did later in the season (something he also hasn't done consistently the last few years)

Even back-ups face a lot of rubber during a full NHL season. There's a ton of practices during a "normal" season, which should happen for 2021-22. Facing NHL shots consistently (unless we re-sign Stepan ) is a good thing

Now how do you split 4 goalies to the AHL? We don't even have an ECHL affiliate anymore

 

[IlTerrifico]

Dorion's talk about Zaitsev and Stepan shows us that he will stubbornly not acknowledge his errors, and will double down on them going forward. If he is not just spouting off for public consumption, he needs to go. Someone else with no ties would surely see the need to get out from under his mistakes.

Zaitsev was -13 for the season, and more disturbing. -10 in the period after the horrible first 15 games, while the team was playing .500 hockey. This is not viable top 4 defense option, and shows only bottom 2 potential, though not at his pay. This must be overcome strategically.

A truly competitive team would look to move him, either by exposure to expansion with a sweetener for Seattle to take him, or trade him to a cap struggling team for a $6.5M defenseman who is a top 4.

Stepan returning would likely cause the locker room to further question Dorion's sanity and possibly bring on a funk and some longer term questions.

We also need to move White's contract albatross. Pierre again won't be willing to admit the mistake, so we will have a $2M value on the roster taking up $4M+ in cap space if he stays in charge.

Zaitsev + White combined earn an elite player's salary. Nowhere near affordable when teams like Colorado spend to the limit and don't have any drains in the lineup. After this season's winfall, he is like the dumb guy in the casino who won $300 on his first pull, and thinks all he has to do is keep playing the same to win even more.

 

[Hale The Villain]

He's also as calm as a cucumber which is a very valuable trait for a defender. Zub was unphased from day 1, which was very impressive to me. Think about how nervous guys like Brannstrom and Mete are/were... Defending against elite skilled NHL players or players that hit like trucks is not an easy task.

I mean, think about Adam Lowry coming on the forecheck as you are in the corner, kinda stressful.

I'd be more worried about Zub's salary on a long-term deal if he happened to put up a bunch of points like Zaitsev did in his first year, despite clearly not having an offensive defenseman's skill set.

 

[Dan Patrick]

Stepan returning would likely cause the locker room to further question Dorion's sanity and possibly bring on a funk and some longer term questions.

I mean there's wild speculation and then there is WILD speculation.

 

[Crosside]

Garrioch: Sens will offer Tkachuk eight years for a 'significant amount of money'

 

[Xspyrit]

I'd be more worried about Zub's salary on a long-term deal if he happened to put up a bunch of points like Zaitsev did in his first year, despite clearly not having an offensive defenseman's skill set.

Dorion being comfortable with Zaitsev, Zub and Josh Brown on the right side is worrisome.

Dorion thinking that Zub's term was ideal because we have JBD and Thomson coming is an even bigger reason to worry

These are crucial years where we need to turn potential into a true contender team. We don't have a lot of margin for errors.

 

[Slippy]

Gustavsson >>> Forsberg IMO

Zub on a 1 year deal*, giving time to both parties to discover his longer-term value and then find a better agreement >>> 2 years deal leading up to UFA

Anything >>>> re-signing Derek Stepan

But maybe I'm totally wrong (again)

* sort of like Duclair's 1 year bridge!

Yes, I believe Gus is/will be better than Forsberg. But he played 8 games for the Sens this year. Forsberg is cheap insurance (contrary to another poster).

Give Zub a 1 year deal now, and he likely asks for another one year deal to get to UFA. If his play continues at it's current level, that next one year contract and the subsequent UFA years will all cost more. I think they gave him what he wanted, so perhaps that will help in UFA negotiations in a couple of years.

And I'll agree, I don't see a place for Stepan, but if he wanted to come back on cheap I wouldn't immediately say no. But also, this is a move that hasn't happened yet.

 

[God Says No]

If Stepan is back for, say, 1.5M and is willing to sit in the press box like Anisimov, why is that bad?

Right now we have Tkachuk, Norris, Batherson, Brown, Pinto, Stutzle, Paul, White, Dadonov, Formenton, Tierney, Watson + L. Brown as a 13th forward. Is Stepan really getting in the way of anyone here? Not Brown. If Brown can't outplay Pinto he'll be subject to waivers, but should we really care if a 24 yr old Brown is lost to waivers if he can't beat out a 20 yr old Pinto? If Pinto can't beat out Stepan and Brown, he gets sent to the AHL until someone gets hurt, which will happen eventually.

If we lose Tierney to expansion, Boom, Stepan just replaces him. Yeah, assuming we lose, say, Daccord or Gustavsson to expansion it would be a little redundant to have a 6th NHL center alongside White, Pinto Norris, Brown and Tierney, but it is hardly a bad idea to give yourself options.

Because I would rather use the roster spot and 1.5 on someone who can still play hockey.

 

[IlTerrifico]

I mean there's wild speculation and then there is WILD speculation.

Don't know that it is so wild.

Subbing Jonny Oduya in for Marc Methot and keeping Ceci in the top 4 the year after reaching the conference final could easily have been the kind of management foolishness that made Karlsson and Stone seek to get out of dodge within 18 months of an 11 win playoff.

 

[IranCondraAffair]

Because I would rather use the roster spot and 1.5 on someone who can still play hockey.

Which player are we going to sign that could, theoretically:

1. Play all three forward positions
2. Good at draws
3. Can play top-6 and bottom-6
4. Will only get paid 1.5M or so
5. Will accept a 1 year deal
6. Will accept a seat in the press box without any drama.
7. Willing to come to Ottawa for all this.


I mean, if you got a better idea, I'm all ears, but I don't see a lot of guys who might be willing to do that in Ottawa.

 

[God Says No]

Which player are we going to sign that could, theoretically:

1. Play all three forward positions
2. Good at draws
3. Can play top-6 and bottom-6
4. Will only get paid 1.5M or so
5. Will accept a 1 year deal
6. Will accept a seat in the press box without any drama.
7. Willing to come to Ottawa for all this.


I mean, if you got a better idea, I'm all ears, but I don't see a lot of guys who might be willing to do that in Ottawa.

Wait are you saying Stepan can do all of the above? Because I'm only advocating the next guy is better than Stepan which is a pretty low bar.