Proposal: Girardi to the Leafs

5cotland

NFR
Jan 23, 2015
3,589
4,239
Scotland
Ok. Im not getting through to anyone on here. Im a fair impartial person and I have posted very valid points here but people obviously only care about stats so lets put some stats up. These are defensive stats. Girardi is not an offensive dman so so offensive stats are useless so lets look at defence.

Brent Burns has the most giveaways than any other player in the league. He is 11th is shot attempts against and 29th in blocked shots.

Erik Karlsson has the 2nd most giveaways in the league. He is 3rd in shot attempts against and 2nd in blocked shots.

Dustin Byfuglien has the 4th most giveaways in the league. He is 6th for shot attempts against and 36th for shot attempts against.

My point being is that people say that high shot attempts against and high shot blocking is because the player is being hemmed in your own zone.

Dan Girardi is joint 86th with 14 other players in the league in giveaways. He is 46th for shot attempts against and 4th in blocked shots.

For stat junkies - this shows 'statistically' that Dan Girardi is by far not the worst dman in the league and that in certain defensive areas is having much better defensive displays that the players listed above.

I agree that Dan Girardi's contract is quite awful but I do not agree with the amount ***** he gets and being labelled as the worse dman in the league with negative value.
 

5cotland

NFR
Jan 23, 2015
3,589
4,239
Scotland
Because he can compensate for his shot attempts against with many more shot attempts for. Once Karlsson gets the puck back, Ottawa has a good chance of developing a scoring chance and scoring. Girardi can never get the puck back when defending, so that's why he's just a black hole of scoring chances against.

Erik Karlsson is minus 50 for shot attempts for v shot attempts against and I agree offensively Karlsson is one of the best dmen going forward but as in terms of your post the shot attempt arguement has been shut down and for the record Karlsson is plus 1 so far and Girardi is plus 12.

I do think plus/minus stats are pointless but they are for defensive x offensive goals and shows that Karlsson is on the ice for as many goals that the Sens concede compared to the amount they score. Girardi is plus 12.

Pointless stat but worth noting.
 

Liferleafer

TSN Scrum Lurker
Feb 9, 2011
39,848
13,005
Ok. Im not getting through to anyone on here. Im a fair impartial person and I have posted very valid points here but people obviously only care about stats so lets put some stats up. These are defensive stats. Girardi is not an offensive dman so so offensive stats are useless so lets look at defence.

Brent Burns has the most giveaways than any other player in the league. He is 11th is shot attempts against and 29th in blocked shots.

Erik Karlsson has the 2nd most giveaways in the league. He is 3rd in shot attempts against and 2nd in blocked shots.

Dustin Byfuglien has the 4th most giveaways in the league. He is 6th for shot attempts against and 36th for shot attempts against.

My point being is that people say that high shot attempts against and high shot blocking is because the player is being hemmed in your own zone.

Dan Girardi is joint 86th with 14 other players in the league in giveaways. He is 46th for shot attempts against and 4th in blocked shots.

For stat junkies - this shows 'statistically' that Dan Girardi is by far not the worst dman in the league and that in certain defensive areas is having much better defensive displays that the players listed above.

I agree that Dan Girardi's contract is quite awful but I do not agree with the amount ***** he gets and being labelled as the worse dman in the league with negative value.

Who are the bolded guys partners? Because i think if you take away McDonagh....quite possibly Girardi's stats don't look quite the same.
 

gorangers0525

Registered User
Dec 15, 2014
2,751
687
Ok. Im not getting through to anyone on here. Im a fair impartial person and I have posted very valid points here but people obviously only care about stats so lets put some stats up. These are defensive stats. Girardi is not an offensive dman so so offensive stats are useless so lets look at defence.

Brent Burns has the most giveaways than any other player in the league. He is 11th is shot attempts against and 29th in blocked shots.

Erik Karlsson has the 2nd most giveaways in the league. He is 3rd in shot attempts against and 2nd in blocked shots.

Dustin Byfuglien has the 4th most giveaways in the league. He is 6th for shot attempts against and 36th for shot attempts against.

My point being is that people say that high shot attempts against and high shot blocking is because the player is being hemmed in your own zone.

Dan Girardi is joint 86th with 14 other players in the league in giveaways. He is 46th for shot attempts against and 4th in blocked shots.

For stat junkies - this shows 'statistically' that Dan Girardi is by far not the worst dman in the league and that in certain defensive areas is having much better defensive displays that the players listed above.

I agree that Dan Girardi's contract is quite awful but I do not agree with the amount ***** he gets and being labelled as the worse dman in the league with negative value.



Girardi has the 5th worst CA/60/reltm (you know, the stat that considers toi and games played, team...) in the entire league. The guys you listed are no where near him...also karlsson is usually an elite shot suppressor, this year so far has been an anomaly. You couldn't be using the stat anymore wrong.

Last year he had the worst ca/60 relative to his teammates in the entire league, and the worst corsirel in the league. There is not a worse posession defenseman in the NHL and it's even worse because he plays with teammates who are awesome posession players away from him.

http://stats.hockeyanalysis.com/rat...eamid=0&type=corsi&sort=A60RelTM&sortdir=DESC

http://stats.hockeyanalysis.com/rat...eamid=0&type=corsi&sort=A60RelTM&sortdir=DESC

You're using raw show attempts for players who have played 3+ more games than him and average close to five minutes more a game dude....even with Karlsson having a bad CA against this year it's still been WORLDS better than Girardi's.

Byfuglien has been an elite shot suppresor this season actually...-4.78 re teammates...Girardi? +10.94!!! Post your sources dude, i don't even know where you're getting your stats from.
 
Last edited:

hagelin1381

Registered User
Mar 27, 2016
1,839
25
Orlando, FL
Ok. Im not getting through to anyone on here. Im a fair impartial person and I have posted very valid points here but people obviously only care about stats so lets put some stats up. These are defensive stats. Girardi is not an offensive dman so so offensive stats are useless so lets look at defence.

Brent Burns has the most giveaways than any other player in the league. He is 11th is shot attempts against and 29th in blocked shots.

Erik Karlsson has the 2nd most giveaways in the league. He is 3rd in shot attempts against and 2nd in blocked shots.

Dustin Byfuglien has the 4th most giveaways in the league. He is 6th for shot attempts against and 36th for shot attempts against.

My point being is that people say that high shot attempts against and high shot blocking is because the player is being hemmed in your own zone.

Dan Girardi is joint 86th with 14 other players in the league in giveaways. He is 46th for shot attempts against and 4th in blocked shots.

For stat junkies - this shows 'statistically' that Dan Girardi is by far not the worst dman in the league and that in certain defensive areas is having much better defensive displays that the players listed above.

I agree that Dan Girardi's contract is quite awful but I do not agree with the amount ***** he gets and being labelled as the worse dman in the league with negative value.

Top 10 players in giveaways last season:
Subban, Burns, Thornton, Doughty, Karlsson, Markov, Byfuglien, Brodie, Gaudreau, Seabrook

It's almost like the players who have the puck more have more giveaways..
 

vipernsx

Flatus Expeller
Sep 4, 2005
6,791
3
Lets put it this way....is it fair to say that the Rangers are a tad better overall than Toronto? Yes? Ok...so imagine taking Girardi away from McDonagh and everything else the Rangers have and inject him into the rookie driven element that is Toronto. How do you think Girardi would fair here? Your own coach doesn't trust him enough to play him away from McDonagh. ...or has Girardi played well enough to earn top pair?

It's easy to draw a conclusion then find something to support it. It's actually a common flaw in leadership in organizations....Looking at the big picture and letting the information draw the conclusion even if it's contradictory to your initial bias, is hard....

All of the Rangers blueliners have been shuffled around this year until the pairings have worked out. Holden has been moved around ALOT though he and Staal seem to click really well. Klein hasn't been good enough to play top4. Skjei is young and still learning the game, playing him on his off side is a poor idea. Pairing him with a vet like Klein and sheltering them both from top lines is a good idea.

The organization finally gave up on McIlrath who'd be defense first. Who's left to pair with McDonagh? Clendenning a PMD who has been in and out of the lineup? That would put McD in a more defensive role. OR Dan Girardi the guy who he's paired with for years? DG is a top4 D and he plays top4.

Leetch - Beukeboom and Lowe - Zubov lead the Rangers blueline to the Stanley cup. I'd love for someone to bring up some advanced stats for those players. Something makes me believe Beukeboom & Lowe would come up as sucketh. While the game has changed and the dichotomy of the roles between a pair of blueliners has significantly reduced, it still exists.

Comparative to blueliners on TML....
If you want a guy with truculence and makes questionable hits on the opposition then gets beat up for it, Polak is your guy....if you want someone to watch your star player get beat up, Girardi is your guy.

Reckless and spending time in the sinbin isn't the way to lead. That's not even acceptable for Ovie and his coach has made it publicly known. It's even worse when you rely on that player to be a key PKer. Polak has 400% more PIMS that Girardi. Besides undisciplined play, getting caught out of position is the other primary reason blueliners take penalties. Girardi has taken all of 3 minor penalties this year.

Going undrafted and playing so many games people start calling you an iron-man requires a huge amount of perseverance, dedication and discipline. Those are qualities of a leader. "Iron-man", despite being one of the league's best shot blockers...think about that....DG blocks more shots per game than anyone on TML and he's blocked twice as many then Polak. He has a higher shoot% than any blueliner on TML and his top ranked +/- among NYR blueliners would be better than anyone on TML. If you added up their 3 plus blueliners he'd still be better than them combined.

Would Girardi be as good on a lesser team NO, it's a TEAM game. There are few elite players where their team doesn't matter. This said, Girardi still helps TML for many reasons. The Rangers can ill afford to lose him if they're looking to make a deep playoff run. A bruised and batter blueline limping along with injuries has hindered their playoff success, which is why they'll be stocking up on veteran D come the deadline. Offseason is a completely different story.
 

5cotland

NFR
Jan 23, 2015
3,589
4,239
Scotland
Girardi has the 5th worst CA/60/reltm (you know, the stat that considers toi and games played, team...) in the entire league. The guys you listed are no where near him...also karlsson is usually an elite shot suppressor, this year so far has been an anomaly. You couldn't be using the stat anymore wrong.

Last year he had the worst ca/60 relative to his teammates in the entire league, and the worst corsirel in the league. There is not a worse posession defenseman in the NHL and it's even worse because he plays with teammates who are awesome posession players away from him.

http://stats.hockeyanalysis.com/rat...eamid=0&type=corsi&sort=A60RelTM&sortdir=DESC

http://stats.hockeyanalysis.com/rat...eamid=0&type=corsi&sort=A60RelTM&sortdir=DESC

You're using raw show attempts for players who have played 3+ more games than him and average close to five minutes more a game dude....even with Karlsson having a bad CA against this year it's still been WORLDS better than Girardi's.

Byfuglien has been an elite shot suppresor this season actually...-4.78 re teammates...Girardi? +10.94!!! Post your sources dude, i don't even know where you're getting your stats from.

My sources are NHL.com under the stats page. Open for all to see. I didnt just pluck them out of thin air. The corsi stats you put show that Girardi is having a better season than the super rated Ristolainen and Olli Matta but he is the worst player in the league??

Im jokin! The point i am trying to prove is that Girardi is not as bad as people make out.
 

BlueBaron

Registered User
May 29, 2006
15,669
6,302
Sarnia, On
He would be signed to a ~4AAV for the next 3 years, which with all the cap space, will be very digestible. His value to us is more than just on ice, as the D needs a solid vet who has been a top pairing guy for a long time.

Bracco is more of the same for us. Babcock won't want him, he doesn't play defense and is small. We have lots of those guys, and while he will be good, I think he's a 2nd liner at best. Let's not act like the Leafs are offering Matthews here.

Time to give it up man. He brings nothing to us but a cap commitment. I do not see us moving for that kind of player and I would hate to have to protect him over the #4 D we can poach from someone before expansion.

Patience, our d will come, it has to be our main focus right now, this trade would just be desperate for no purpose.

They would have to give me picks and prospects to consider taking this player, giving up anything would be down right offensive.
 

Liferleafer

TSN Scrum Lurker
Feb 9, 2011
39,848
13,005
It's easy to draw a conclusion then find something to support it. It's actually a common flaw in leadership in organizations....Looking at the big picture and letting the information draw the conclusion even if it's contradictory to your initial bias, is hard....

All of the Rangers blueliners have been shuffled around this year until the pairings have worked out. Holden has been moved around ALOT though he and Staal seem to click really well. Klein hasn't been good enough to play top4. Skjei is young and still learning the game, playing him on his off side is a poor idea. Pairing him with a vet like Klein and sheltering them both from top lines is a good idea.

The organization finally gave up on McIlrath who'd be defense first. Who's left to pair with McDonagh? Clendenning a PMD who has been in and out of the lineup? That would put McD in a more defensive role. OR Dan Girardi the guy who he's paired with for years? DG is a top4 D and he plays top4.

Leetch - Beukeboom and Lowe - Zubov lead the Rangers blueline to the Stanley cup. I'd love for someone to bring up some advanced stats for those players. Something makes me believe Beukeboom & Lowe would come up as sucketh. While the game has changed and the dichotomy of the roles between a pair of blueliners has significantly reduced, it still exists.

Comparative to blueliners on TML....
If you want a guy with truculence and makes questionable hits on the opposition then gets beat up for it, Polak is your guy....if you want someone to watch your star player get beat up, Girardi is your guy.

Reckless and spending time in the sinbin isn't the way to lead. That's not even acceptable for Ovie and his coach has made it publicly known. It's even worse when you rely on that player to be a key PKer. Polak has 400% more PIMS that Girardi. Besides undisciplined play, getting caught out of position is the other primary reason blueliners take penalties. Girardi has taken all of 3 minor penalties this year.

Going undrafted and playing so many games people start calling you an iron-man requires a huge amount of perseverance, dedication and discipline. Those are qualities of a leader. "Iron-man", despite being one of the league's best shot blockers...think about that....DG blocks more shots per game than anyone on TML and he's blocked twice as many then Polak. He has a higher shoot% than any blueliner on TML and his top ranked +/- among NYR blueliners would be better than anyone on TML. If you added up their 3 plus blueliners he'd still be better than them combined.

Would Girardi be as good on a lesser team NO, it's a TEAM game. There are few elite players where their team doesn't matter. This said, Girardi still helps TML for many reasons. The Rangers can ill afford to lose him if they're looking to make a deep playoff run. A bruised and batter blueline limping along with injuries has hindered their playoff success, which is why they'll be stocking up on veteran D come the deadline. Offseason is a completely different story.

1st off, i'm not the guy calling Girardi the worst D man in the NHL. But this is a trade proposal involving a team i support, so my responses are in answer to that. Girardi isn't an upgrade on what we have, and his contract is a detriment. If he is working out for NY, that's great....i just don't want Toronto to give up assets for Girardi.
 
Jan 8, 2012
30,674
2,151
NY
Erik Karlsson is minus 50 for shot attempts for v shot attempts against and I agree offensively Karlsson is one of the best dmen going forward but as in terms of your post the shot attempt arguement has been shut down and for the record Karlsson is plus 1 so far and Girardi is plus 12.

I do think plus/minus stats are pointless but they are for defensive x offensive goals and shows that Karlsson is on the ice for as many goals that the Sens concede compared to the amount they score. Girardi is plus 12.

Pointless stat but worth noting.

You're bringing +/- into this now? Look at the teams they play for. Girardi got to be out there for half a game while the Rangers were scoring over 4 goals a game early in the season. When have the Ottawa Senators ever given Karlsson that kind of luxury?

And really, Girardi and Karlsson shouldn't be compared at all. One is a multi-time Norris winner who is sure to win more, and the other one has the worst possession stats in the league.
 

Filthy Dangles

Registered User*
Oct 23, 2014
28,353
39,702
He's exactly what the Leafs need. Vet, experience, can play the top pair and help shut down teams.

Proposal:

Rangers:
Bracco
Conditional 2018 2nd rounder based on the Leafs making the playoffs in the 2017-2018 season
Michalek for cap reasons (Expires after this year)

Leafs:
Girardi 30% retained (~ 4m AAV)

Are you a troll account (srs)? You make some suspect thread in the NHLT section too.

Anyway. BRB driving Girardi to Pearson Int. Aiprort right now.
 

Mac n Gs

Gorton plz
Jan 17, 2014
22,580
12,822
Girardi and Hunwick are both #5s that are shoehorned into a top-pairing role because their coaches view them as reliable vets, even though they don't have the skills to handle top competition.

There's a reason Hunwick was a really, really good third pairing defenseman when he was here. That's because that's exactly what he is, a really, really good third pairing defender. Girardi would be fine in Babcock's uber-structured system, but not as a 1. He's a 5. That being said, this trade would never happen. G is gonna finish out the year here, and then get bought out before/after expansion.
 

gorangers0525

Registered User
Dec 15, 2014
2,751
687
My sources are NHL.com under the stats page. Open for all to see. I didnt just pluck them out of thin air. The corsi stats you put show that Girardi is having a better season than the super rated Ristolainen and Olli Matta but he is the worst player in the league??

Im jokin! The point i am trying to prove is that Girardi is not as bad as people make out.



Maata is not highly rated anymore, he's been (understandably) garbage since his many injuries and illnesses. Ristolainen is highly suspect defensively, but playing with another corsi anchor (Gorges) doesn't help his case.

If taking into account a greater sample size than just this season, and not using raw shot attempts which are worthless (if the best shot attempt suppressor in the league plays 20 games, and Dan Girardi plays one, who's going to have less CA?) Girardi is among the worst, if not the worst, posession defenseman in the entire league. Him being strapped to McDonagh all these years should be considered a felony.
 

LeafingTheWay

Registered User
May 31, 2014
6,726
1,855
Your seriously bringing corsi into this? Rangers as a whole were near enough the worst in the league the last 2 seasons when it comes to Corsi stats and we won the presidents trophy, made it to the ECF and had 2 playoff appreances in those 2 years. I watch the Rangers every single game and there is a massive improvement from last year. There is more to hockey than stats.

What on earth does the Rangers being the worst in the league in that department 'corsi' have anything to do with this? These are relative stats, the stats are relative to the team. If you're going to ignore the massive gap between him and the next worst defender on the team then there's no point in continuing this 'discussion'.

You say there's a massive improvement? There has been improvement. Last year he had even WORSE stats than this year. That's ridiculous.

2014-2015: You had McDonagh, Boyle, Yandle (via trade), Stralman (he was a low-end #1, high-end #2 even back then), Hunwick (in his prime when he was actually amazing bottom-pairing), Klein, Staal, Girardi. That's stacked, yet Girardi was holding back that D-group big time. He's gotten worse over time since then.

I'm a big fan of McDonagh and the fact that Girardi has been used beside him is ridiculous.

Edit: I see others have replied to you, but still my point still remains. You're right he's not the worst defensemen in the league, but he's terrible.
 

McSuper

5-14-6-1
Jun 16, 2012
16,943
6,571
Halifax
He's exactly what the Leafs need. Vet, experience, can play the top pair and help shut down teams.

Proposal:

Rangers:
Bracco
Conditional 2018 2nd rounder based on the Leafs making the playoffs in the 2017-2018 season
Michalek for cap reasons (Expires after this year)

Leafs:
Girardi 30% retained (~ 4m AAV)

So the TML have a boat and need an anchor . Isn't it a little cold to be on Lake Ontario this time of year ? :sarcasm:

Joking of course .

Reality is no one is taking Girardi contract . There a reason he is in most NYR threads . He is not good any more
 

BWDude

Registered User
Nov 13, 2015
877
1
Girardi and Hunwick are both #5s that are shoehorned into a top-pairing role because their coaches view them as reliable vets, even though they don't have the skills to handle top competition.

There's a reason Hunwick was a really, really good third pairing defenseman when he was here. That's because that's exactly what he is, a really, really good third pairing defender. Girardi would be fine in Babcock's uber-structured system, but not as a 1. He's a 5. That being said, this trade would never happen. G is gonna finish out the year here, and then get bought out before/after expansion.

You don't watch the Leafs then. Hunwick has not been shoehorned to be a top pairing, he's on the bottom and is still garbage and costing us games. We aren't fixing crap with Girardi replacing this guy either.
 

bernmeister

Registered User
Jun 11, 2010
27,568
3,656
Da Big Apple
No problem. This is one of those times in which the reward is definitely not worth the risk.

I am willing to accept that conclusion, no complaints.

I am simply shocked however, that if there is a good faith effort by members of 2 entire fan bases, they could not, working back from the opposite ends, lose the extremes, and wind up at a middle. Granted, that middle may or may not have been ultimately satisfactory enough to be acceptable, but you would think that by adding a bit more, taking off a drop less, eventually we would get there.

However, if we can't agree on a virtually identical Lupul for part of the equation, and a third for each year remaining, and a decent but not excessive sweetener, I do not see a starting point..
 

Brock Radunske

안양종합운동장 빙상장
Aug 8, 2012
16,787
4,701
I am willing to accept that conclusion, no complaints.

I am simply shocked however, that if there is a good faith effort by members of 2 entire fan bases, they could not, working back from the opposite ends, lose the extremes, and wind up at a middle. Granted, that middle may or may not have been ultimately satisfactory enough to be acceptable, but you would think that by adding a bit more, taking off a drop less, eventually we would get there.

However, if we can't agree on a virtually identical Lupul for part of the equation, and a third for each year remaining, and a decent but not excessive sweetener, I do not see a starting point..

The biggest problem is Girardi causes future cap problems and since we can't see the future, GMs wouldn't risk adding him because the reward isn't very high.
I appreciate your effort but adding 3rds don't come close to making this work for the Leafs. The only way the Leafs would take him is if the risk was removed...IE. 50% retention.
 

Liferleafer

TSN Scrum Lurker
Feb 9, 2011
39,848
13,005
I am willing to accept that conclusion, no complaints.

I am simply shocked however, that if there is a good faith effort by members of 2 entire fan bases, they could not, working back from the opposite ends, lose the extremes, and wind up at a middle. Granted, that middle may or may not have been ultimately satisfactory enough to be acceptable, but you would think that by adding a bit more, taking off a drop less, eventually we would get there.

However, if we can't agree on a virtually identical Lupul for part of the equation, and a third for each year remaining, and a decent but not excessive sweetener, I do not see a starting point..

Lupul is LTIR...no cap issue. The problem with the whole premise of Girardi to Toronto is he just doesn't fit. We are building a team based on speed and skill....Girardi doesn't fit. In that scheme. We already have Polak/Hunwick filling the role Girardi would for alot less time and cap. If you want TO to help you out of Girardi's contract...you would need to offer something really good...3rds aren't it. Rangers are better buying him out than paying the asset(s) it would take for a team to take him.
 

Mikos87

Registered User
Mar 19, 2002
9,064
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Visit site
He's a good player for Toronto for maybe 2 more seasons.

Let's give the guy credit, he does a few things well enough that he's been on a top pair of a winning team for a while.

Is he crap? No.

Does he need an insulated partner like Gardner that he complements well?

Yes. You bet.

He's not a shooter at all. Terrible at it. Big reason why his corsi sucks in addition to his general lack of mobility with the puck on his stick.

He's a good defender, and puts pucks in controlled situations.

This is something good for a young team that needs to learn how to protect leads.

He'll just need to go the way of Robidas in a few years if you know what I mean.

A Gardner-Girardi pair will be good for both players.
 

Confucius

There is no try, Just do
Feb 8, 2009
21,890
6,905
Toronto
Girardi is old, has negative value, is signed long-term (even 4 million is too much), is terrible possession wise and his body is breaking down because his only skills at this point is jumping in front of pucks. I wouldn't trade Nathan Horton for him at 50% retained.

This was too funny, thanks.:laugh:
 

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