Injury Report: Giordano and Stempniak are broken

Anglesmith

Setting up the play?
Sep 17, 2012
46,460
14,767
Victoria
82 game season. Flames are already 4th last in our conference (albeit, the east has been awful) and we just lost our captain and a top 6 winger.

The Flames have been playing great, but expecting them to keep up this kind of pace is just foolish.

Expecting them to tank is equally foolish. I, for one, am not expecting to have a winning season, but I just don't know why it has to be either expecting success or accepting the inevitability of failure, with no middle ground?

How about hope for success, be prepared for failure, and realize that nothing (not even a Stanley Cup) is either impossible or inevitable at this point?
 

Calculon

unholy acting talent
Jan 20, 2006
16,578
4,035
Error 503
Why is it that if one thinks a team will do poorly, it's automatically assumed they want the team to 'tank'? Is it not conceivable for one to want the team play competitively and be entertaining, but at the same time acknowledge the lack of talent relative to others and thus, the likelihood of a poor season?
 

MarkGio

Registered User
Nov 6, 2010
12,533
11
Why is it that if one thinks a team will do poorly, it's automatically assumed they want the team to 'tank'? Is it not conceivable for one to want the team play competitively and be entertaining, but at the same time acknowledge the lack of talent relative to others and thus, the likelihood of a poor season?

Sure, when you 'elaborate'.
 

Anglesmith

Setting up the play?
Sep 17, 2012
46,460
14,767
Victoria
Why is it that if one thinks a team will do poorly, it's automatically assumed they want the team to 'tank'? Is it not conceivable for one to want the team play competitively and be entertaining, but at the same time acknowledge the lack of talent relative to others and thus, the likelihood of a poor season?

Not sure what you're arguing, but I thought I'd point out that the post that basically started the discussion was:

TylerSVT said:
Im all for the team playing well, but i think you are going to have to accept that we are going to be a terrible team this year.

That's not just a statement that he thinks we're going to be bad. It's a statement that the team is going to inevitably be bad, and that we're not allowed to even consider any other possibilities. I'm perfectly ok with people saying they think the team will do poorly, but that just isn't what this was.
 

TheHudlinator

Registered User
Nov 21, 2011
28,822
7,598
Victoria,BC
That's because usually SOB has to cover for Butler. Sure, Butler appeared to have a better game, but did his partner? No, and that's no coincidence.

People need to realize that SOB is the heart and soul of our defense. Not just on the ice either, but in designing the system and growing the position on a league or pond-hockey evolutionary scale

Man your taking this SOB trolling to a new level.
 

TheHudlinator

Registered User
Nov 21, 2011
28,822
7,598
Victoria,BC
82 game season. Flames are already 4th last in our conference (albeit, the east has been awful) and we just lost our captain and a top 6 winger.

The Flames have been playing great, but expecting them to keep up this kind of pace is just foolish.

Where did I say I expect this to continue but writing them off is more foolish. At least we have proof that this play is possible and yet you act like we should be 0-11. I understand your love of the tank (as you are an Oiler fan) but this idea that we should some how accept that we suck over what the results have shown us thus far is an idea I can't get behind.
 

Calculon

unholy acting talent
Jan 20, 2006
16,578
4,035
Error 503
Not sure what you're arguing, but I thought I'd point out that the post that basically started the discussion was:



That's not just a statement that he thinks we're going to be bad. It's a statement that the team is going to inevitably be bad, and that we're not allowed to even consider any other possibilities. I'm perfectly ok with people saying they think the team will do poorly, but that just isn't what this was.

Matter of connotation I suppose. If the teams accepts they'll do poorly, they're far more likely to make the moves necessary in a rebuild, which is to say, trading away UFA's for picks/prospects/young players.

But if the team believes anything is truly possible, that they can actully be competitive no matter what the standings say, then they're more likely to hold on to their UFA's, and either re-sign them furthering the likelihood of stagnation or at best, slowing the decline, or watch them walk with nothing to show for it.

So if the Flames believe the playoffs are not only a legitimate possibility, but a goal that necessitates a fight to the bitter end, they'll hold on to Cammalleri and Stempniak and the other UFA's, regardless of whether they want to stay or not past the deadline. On the otherhand, if the know the playoffs are a longshot, and the cup an unrealistic vision, they'll look to sell off players to gain future assets, even if they're still playing competitively and maybe close to a playoff spot.

You're right that it doesn't have to be one or the other, but there does exist a need to recognize when to fold them. Personally, I think the team has the right mentality; from the beginning of the season to December, they're going to assess the players heading to free agency and then decide who should be offered a contract and who should be moved. Players who dont want to stay or have no future qith the team are traded for assets, as too I would suspect, signed players. They're not only keeping they're options open but they're not closing their eyes to the future.
 

MarkGio

Registered User
Nov 6, 2010
12,533
11
Where did I say I expect this to continue but writing them off is more foolish. At least we have proof that this play is possible and yet you act like we should be 0-11. I understand your love of the tank (as you are an Oiler fan) but this idea that we should some how accept that we suck over what the results have shown us thus far is an idea I can't get behind.

I understand what you're saying, but honestly, teams go through roller-coaster motions. The Flames had a hot streak in 11-12 just before the deadline and everyone here had a twinkle in their eye. Well, the results speak for themselves. Last year (if I recall) the Oilers went on an incredible tear around this time and Khabi put on unheard-of goalie numbers. Like 0.965% in the first 10 games! But look where they finished.

I'm optimistic, just in different ways. I know reality will kick in and I'm glad we got some good guys in the pipes, movable assets, a great coach and system, and a remodeled management structure. I'm just not overly optimistic about the playoffs or a cup.
 

TheHudlinator

Registered User
Nov 21, 2011
28,822
7,598
Victoria,BC
I understand what you're saying, but honestly, teams go through roller-coaster motions. The Flames had a hot streak in 11-12 just before the deadline and everyone here had a twinkle in their eye. Well, the results speak for themselves. Last year (if I recall) the Oilers went on an incredible tear around this time and Khabi put on unheard-of goalie numbers. Like 0.965% in the first 10 games! But look where they finished.

I'm optimistic, just in different ways. I know reality will kick in and I'm glad we got some good guys in the pipes, movable assets, a great coach and system, and a remodeled management structure. I'm just not overly optimistic about the playoffs or a cup.

I'm not saying that we shouldn't keep the big picture in mind in fact we totally should and that is that we are rebuilding but as of right now this team is playing great and no one should be thinking we should accept we suck. I think that there are several defensemen that could be brought in relatively cheap (i.e for Horak or Stempniak (obviously once he gets back)) that could fit in here past this year and help now such as (Muzzin, Fayne, Martinez, etc). I think there has to be a compromise between the rebuilding (gaining prospect and picks) and trying to win (trading away picks and prospects). For me we should keep important players players until the deadline and high picks (2nd and above) but should be open minded to bringing in relatively young players (<28 or so) who can help now but fill a role down the road as well.
 

Zirakzigil

Global Moderator
Jul 5, 2010
29,004
22,081
Canada
:shakehead

He's always underrated but he's been playing fantastically and consistently for this club all season long.

I never said he wasnt, But he wasnt one of our core blueliners. Stemps offense can be replaced in the short term. It remains to be seen if Giordano can even be remotely replaced in the short term. Wideman cant play 30min a game forever, Brodie is still growing and will have bad games here and there.
 

MarkGio

Registered User
Nov 6, 2010
12,533
11
I'm not saying that we shouldn't keep the big picture in mind in fact we totally should and that is that we are rebuilding but as of right now this team is playing great and no one should be thinking we should accept we suck. I think that there are several defensemen that could be brought in relatively cheap (i.e for Horak or Stempniak (obviously once he gets back)) that could fit in here past this year and help now such as (Muzzin, Fayne, Martinez, etc). I think there has to be a compromise between the rebuilding (gaining prospect and picks) and trying to win (trading away picks and prospects). For me we should keep important players players until the deadline and high picks (2nd and above) but should be open minded to bringing in relatively young players (<28 or so) who can help now but fill a role down the road as well.

Ah yes, such fantastic moves like Sarich for O'Brien :sarcasm:
 

herashak

Registered User
Mar 24, 2013
5,374
559
Was never in doubt we would pick top 5. This makes it look like we are bound for bottom five. i do hope we stay near .500 till we are at least 50 games in.
 

MarkGio

Registered User
Nov 6, 2010
12,533
11
I'm not saying that we shouldn't keep the big picture in mind in fact we totally should and that is that we are rebuilding but as of right now this team is playing great and no one should be thinking we should accept we suck. I think that there are several defensemen that could be brought in relatively cheap (i.e for Horak or Stempniak (obviously once he gets back)) that could fit in here past this year and help now such as (Muzzin, Fayne, Martinez, etc). I think there has to be a compromise between the rebuilding (gaining prospect and picks) and trying to win (trading away picks and prospects). For me we should keep important players players until the deadline and high picks (2nd and above) but should be open minded to bringing in relatively young players (<28 or so) who can help now but fill a role down the road as well.

I think there is a compromise... eventually. We're in year 1. All we really did was draft some guys in round 1, then sign Colby, Galiardi and Knight, as well as the Tangs/Sarich trade. That compromise needs to happen when we've built, not when we're building. All we know is that Baertschi, Monahan and Brodie, and maybe a few other guys, will be our new core.
 

TheHudlinator

Registered User
Nov 21, 2011
28,822
7,598
Victoria,BC
I think there is a compromise... eventually. We're in year 1. All we really did was draft some guys in round 1, then sign Colby, Galiardi and Knight, as well as the Tangs/Sarich trade. That compromise needs to happen when we've built, not when we're building. All we know is that Baertschi, Monahan and Brodie, and maybe a few other guys, will be our new core.

I disagree the cost for some of the defense really won't be that high especially Fayne when he is a UFA and they are looking to move a defenseman to bring Gelina back up.

We moved mid picks for Colborne, TJ, Russell to fill need I don't see how moving either Horak or a couple of mid picks that can be regained later is a bad move to help the team. Simply allowing our poor defense to remain this way is the same as tanking to me. We know that there is a problem and the cost should be relatively cheap to fix it, by simply doing nothing is terrible management.

We want to help Ramo and Berra (if he gets called up) adjust to NA and be #1 goalies then they are going to need some defenseman to play in front of them. The amount of love for later picks and a easily replaceable prospect (Horak) amazes me.
 

MuffinMerc

Come watch TV
Jan 23, 2013
4,065
0
We want to help Ramo and Berra (if he gets called up) adjust to NA and be #1 goalies then they are going to need some defenseman to play in front of them. The amount of love for later picks and a easily replaceable prospect (Horak) amazes me.

nfNeT7YvTozx0cv7ze3mplZpo1_500.gif
 

FLAMES666

Registered User
Jan 30, 2009
4,572
6
Calgary
Welcome to the rebuild, when injuries happen your lack of depth is going to show. Just gonna have to ride it out. If any trade were to happen though it should be for a young D man with good potential. One that currently plays bottom pairing but has top 4 potential. Not a lot of teams are really deep on D though. Ian Cole is one guy thats pops into mind.
 

YMCMBYOLO

WEDABEST
Mar 30, 2009
11,229
919
Yeah, Horak is your average fringe NHLer / careerman AHLer. I'm not being sarcastic either.
 

Devilspuppet666

Registered User
Dec 25, 2010
1,824
0
Calgary
we need to calm down... i think we should figure something else out from within and at least give our guys the chance to step up... signing/trading a vet into the line up and bumping down our young guys down

white should be a worst case scenario signing, and a trade should only occur if its for a younger dman that will play a role in the future

IM NOT SAYING TANK, cause i hate that mentality
 

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