Gilbert Brule vs Andrei Kastitsyn

Psycho Papa Joe

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See, that's exactly my point. Vanek is better than the other prospects on Buffalo so he played. Kostitsyn is not better than the other prospects on Montreal so he did not play. Bringing up the point that he did not play just because there were too many other prospects were with the Habs is not a valid point.

It's all about NHL readiness and development potential. Just because a prospect makes it first, doesn't mean he has better upside. For instance, as rookies, Samsonov was much more NHL ready than Thornton, but in the long run Thornton was still regarded as having much more upside potential.
 

Next Best Thing*

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***, how do I have double standards? You never moved onto another point, look at your post and you will see you were just basically bashing him saying he didn't know anything and he needs help. The only way you "moved on" was by asking how Kostitsyn's stock dropped. Kostitsyn may have improved in this past year but news flash, HE'S SUPPOSED TO GET BETTER FROM YEAR TO YEAR. He just hasn't improved to the level a 10th overall pick with a ton of potential should have improved.



This "us against the world" attitude many Canadiens fan's take is quite comical. Calling me a hater just because I think Brule is better than Kostitsyn...:biglaugh:

Yes I moved on from ridiculing his very lopsided opinion on Kostitsyn to pondering what makes him that much worst in peoples eyes, maybe you should learn how to read and interpret? Also notice I never ONCE mentioned Brule in my post, and I couldn't care less if it was the NHL vs Canadiens, I am trying to set some things right with Kost in some peoples eyes. You putting words in my mouth is comical. Add to the fact that you think he should playing on our first line racking up the points by now, but because the situation he's in doesn't allow him to do that yet, he's never going to crack the NHL. You have the right to think Brule is better, I think so too but not buy a lot, but again, I didn't even mention that. Learn to read?...
 

X0ssbar

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Brule = more skilled, less leadership version of Saku Koivu.

And even then Saku Koivu is arguably the best international center in the past decade.

Interesting comparison.

I've heard a young Roenick and Gilmour but this is the first I've ready of Koivu (well you and the poster right above your post)... I can certainly handle a Koivu clone as I'm a big fan of his game. I think Brule will be more physical though.
 

Buffalo87

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Yes I moved on from ridiculing his very lopsided opinion on Kostitsyn to pondering what makes him that much worst in peoples eyes, maybe you should learn how to read and interpret?

Ok either you HATE Kostitsyn or vastly overrate Brule. Yes, brule should be a 10A+ and Kostitsyn licking his boots, is that what you want hab fans to admit? Get the **** over it already, he's not even a Canucks prospect. And for the substance of my post, just HOW did Kostitsyn's stock drop considerably? You have no clue what you're talking about, he's a more complete player than he was drafted and I don't think he lost his offensive awareness.

You = :help: and :biglaugh:

I see two small parts of this post that is not bashing the other poster, I would hardly call that "moving on".

You putting words in my mouth is comical. Add to the fact that you think he should playing on our first line racking up the points by now, but because the situation he's in doesn't allow him to do that yet, he's never going to crack the NHL. You have the right to think Brule is better, I think so too but not buy a lot, but again, I didn't even mention that. Learn to read?...

The fact that you accuse me of putting words in your mouth (which I have no idea where I did and I would like you to show me where I did) and then go on to say I think he should be on the top line racking up points and you say I said he will never crack the NHL is very funny because I never said any of those things. In fact, if you look at my posts I DISAGREED with the guy who said he won't crack the NHL.

Please, if you respond use something to support your points instead of just making accusations and saying that I can't read because it's really quite annoying and immature.
 

Buffalo87

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It's all about NHL readiness and development potential. Just because a prospect makes it first, doesn't mean he has better upside. For instance, as rookies, Samsonov was much more NHL ready than Thornton, but in the long run Thornton was still regarded as having much more upside potential.

I know, I'm just using that to refute his point. I said that he may have improved but he's not improving at the level the 10th overall pick with a ton of potential should be improving.
 

trentmccleary

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I agree with most of what you're saying but I think it's way too early to say this.

If he can't be "elite" or "1st line" in other leagues by now, than I can't imagine him doing it in the NHL. HF for example has Sakic and Elias listed besides those two terms. Kostitsyn is so far away from either of them that I refused to put his name in the same sentence.

Other posts....
Bust- he's not a bust yet, but he's well on his way.

A player reputed to have that type of offensive ability should be producing, period. He should have more than 32 professional goals in 160+ games... he's a goalscorer, right? That's what he's supposed to be doing. He won't make the NHL for doing anything else.
 

417

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If he can't be "elite" or "1st line" in other leagues by now, than I can't imagine him doing it in the NHL. HF for example has Sakic and Elias listed besides those two terms. Kostitsyn is so far away from either of them that I refused to put his name in the same sentence.

Other posts....
Bust- he's not a bust yet, but he's well on his way.

A player reputed to have that type of offensive ability should be producing, period. He should have more than 32 professional goals in 160+ games... he's a goalscorer, right? That's what he's supposed to be doing. He won't make the NHL for doing anything else.

If only it was as simple as that...yes Kostitsyn is an offensive player, but offensive players sometimes have to be surrounded by players who can get them the puck, you're always focusing on what a 21yr old hasn't done professionally instead of acknowledging what he has done professionally...

Example: Since we're talking about him, Tomas Vanek...look at this past season for him, when he had icetime with offensive players, his production was good, when his play slipped in the second half (where he was even benched on some occasions and playing on the 4th line) his production stalled.

Same with Alexander Perezhogin, starts off the year great playing with Koivu and Kovalev was even at a PPG pace, he gets sick, misses a game, has a few off games then gets banished to the 4th line/AHL, the production stalls and even stops. Now conversely, Chris Higgins the first half of the season plays on the 3rd and even 4th line, there's barely any production, he gets promoted to the first line, bam! He finishes the second half as one of the top goal scorers

My point here is, Kostitsyn was never a finished product coming out of the draft, Habs fans mislead alot of people into thinking that the guy could step in right away and blow whatever league he played in, well, that wasn't the case.

He's improved every year since being drafted, how can you say he's on the verge of becoming a bust now? Doesn't make any sense and just shows you're looking at stats as your basis for argument...His AHL numbers don't standout, but he's also a developping 19-20-21 yr old playing on a offensively putrid AHL team, he managed to finish 4th in goal scoring his first year on the team (as a 19-20yr old) and finished 2nd in team scoring his second year, it's not a huge statistical increase, but it's an increase nonetheless, and when you factor in the talent surrounding him during that time, it's pretty good IMO.

I personally think he's going to reach the NHL no matter what ( I think that boom or bust label is one that fans who don't knowany better just regurgitate cause they don't know better) the real question is whether or not he can become that high octane winger (like Hossa or Elias for example) or whether he becomes some journeyman winger (like Dvorak or Czerkawski for example). And that, no one can answer yet, not even you.

Sorry Kostitsyn isn't shattering rookie records like Ovechkin or Crosby, but his progress is going at a slow but steady pace, and if you look at the Habs history with their prospects recently (Komisarek, Higgins, Plekanec, Perezhogin) it falls in line with what they've always done.

P.S.- btw, Kostitsyn did make the RSL as a 19 yr old, he only saw action in about 10 games or so, and in those only saw a few minutes, he was relegated to get more icetime.
 

Rise from the Ashes

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... and Milan Michalek and Robert Nilsson. So 4 out of the 5 Euro's from that draft have NHL jobs right now.
They adapted just fine and remember; he couldn't make it in the Russian Super League at 19 either. A league Samsonov tore up at 17 years old and most Russian 1st rounders are playing in full time at 17-18.

He fell behind the pace long ago and that's why his stock has dropped. I'm seeing names dropped in these threads like Hossa and Naslund... well, they were in the NHL by now. :teach: Actually, Hossa had already put up a better season in the NHL than Kostitsyn did in the AHL last season by this stage.

He hasn't proven to be an elite player or even a 1st line player in either the RSL or AHL and he's 21 now. He's not going to be an elite player or 1st liner in the NHL! If he truly had that potential, he'd have done something productive with it by now.

Also, all this quoting "project" from his orignal scouting report... I get the feeling some fans are starting to read that as "he's really going to be a 40 goalscorer... disguised very well as a bust". But what is going to look like if he is a bust?


the way you are putting it is how it is. But he has a high ceiling. Brule is very good far better but.. he is a scary player to have.
 

Rise from the Ashes

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If only it was as simple as that...yes Kostitsyn is an offensive player, but offensive players sometimes have to be surrounded by players who can get them the puck, you're always focusing on what a 21yr old hasn't done professionally instead of acknowledging what he has done professionally...

Example: Since we're talking about him, Tomas Vanek...look at this past season for him, when he had icetime with offensive players, his production was good, when his play slipped in the second half (where he was even benched on some occasions and playing on the 4th line) his production stalled.

Same with Alexander Perezhogin, starts off the year great playing with Koivu and Kovalev was even at a PPG pace, he gets sick, misses a game, has a few off games then gets banished to the 4th line/AHL, the production stalls and even stops. Now conversely, Chris Higgins the first half of the season plays on the 3rd and even 4th line, there's barely any production, he gets promoted to the first line, bam! He finishes the second half as one of the top goal scorers

My point here is, Kostitsyn was never a finished product coming out of the draft, Habs fans mislead alot of people into thinking that the guy could step in right away and blow whatever league he played in, well, that wasn't the case.

He's improved every year since being drafted, how can you say he's on the verge of becoming a bust now? Doesn't make any sense and just shows you're looking at stats as your basis for argument...His AHL numbers don't standout, but he's also a developping 19-20-21 yr old playing on a offensively putrid AHL team, he managed to finish 4th in goal scoring his first year on the team (as a 19-20yr old) and finished 2nd in team scoring his second year, it's not a huge statistical increase, but it's an increase nonetheless, and when you factor in the talent surrounding him during that time, it's pretty good IMO.

I personally think he's going to reach the NHL no matter what ( I think that boom or bust label is one that fans who don't knowany better just regurgitate cause they don't know better) the real question is whether or not he can become that high octane winger (like Hossa or Elias for example) or whether he becomes some journeyman winger (like Dvorak or Czerkawski for example). And that, no one can answer yet, not even you.

Sorry Kostitsyn isn't shattering rookie records like Ovechkin or Crosby, but his progress is going at a slow but steady pace, and if you look at the Habs history with their prospects recently (Komisarek, Higgins, Plekanec, Perezhogin) it falls in line with what they've always done.

P.S.- btw, Kostitsyn did make the RSL as a 19 yr old, he only saw action in about 10 games or so, and in those only saw a few minutes, he was relegated to get more icetime.

This is also very true, some good arguements in this thread. But the comparison of players is not a good one, completely different players.
 

Greatguru

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See, that's exactly my point. Vanek is better than the other prospects on Buffalo so he played. Kostitsyn is not better than the other prospects on Montreal so he did not play. Bringing up the point that he did not play just because there were too many other prospects were with the Habs is not a valid point.


Vanek is a 5th overall pick who was competing with 2nd round pick and 5th round pick, it's very normal he's better then them. Kostytsyn was competing with 2 other 1st round pick (2001,2002) older then him. My point is prospect competiton was higher in Mtl then Buf thats it, you can't argue with that.
 

RUSqueelin*

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If Andrei had some of Sergei's grit, hitting ability, and charisma he'd be worthy of a 10 pick overall in one of the best drafts ever. Wait, I just described Brule - he's a combo of Sergei and Andrei. :handclap: The Kostitsyn's should have just had one kid we'd have a winner!
 

OhioGuy

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This thread has actually been useful. I know quite a bit more about this Koistinyn or however you spell it that the Habs fans are always talking about :)
 

Buffalo87

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Vanek is a 5th overall pick who was competing with 2nd round pick and 5th round pick, it's very normal he's better then them. Kostytsyn was competing with 2 other 1st round pick (2001,2002) older then him. My point is prospect competiton was higher in Mtl then Buf thats it, you can't argue with that.

I know, you're right that Kostitsyn was competing with higher draft picks (Paille was a first rounder though) but I'm not sure if they're necessarily the better players. I know Vanek also had the advantage and was expected to be on the Sabres this year being the 5th overall pick.
 

Shabutie

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Imo Grabovsky will have a better NHL career than Kostitsyn, but that's another topic. Brule hands down.
 

The Vengabus

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For what its worth, and its not worth much, I watched Gilbert play beach soccer here on the weekend. He was playing the rec league, and lacked ball skills but everyone was terrified of approaching him. Looked healthy, sweated far more than anyone on the field.

Looks a bit bigger than a "smallish" prospect in person and without a shirt.
 

trentmccleary

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If only it was as simple as that...yes Kostitsyn is an offensive player, but offensive players sometimes have to be surrounded by players who can get them the puck, you're always focusing on what a 21yr old hasn't done professionally instead of acknowledging what he has done professionally...

Example: Since we're talking about him, Tomas Vanek...look at this past season for him, when he had icetime with offensive players, his production was good, when his play slipped in the second half (where he was even benched on some occasions and playing on the 4th line) his production stalled.

Same with Alexander Perezhogin, starts off the year great playing with Koivu and Kovalev was even at a PPG pace, he gets sick, misses a game, has a few off games then gets banished to the 4th line/AHL, the production stalls and even stops. Now conversely, Chris Higgins the first half of the season plays on the 3rd and even 4th line, there's barely any production, he gets promoted to the first line, bam! He finishes the second half as one of the top goal scorers

My point here is, Kostitsyn was never a finished product coming out of the draft, Habs fans mislead alot of people into thinking that the guy could step in right away and blow whatever league he played in, well, that wasn't the case.

He's improved every year since being drafted, how can you say he's on the verge of becoming a bust now? Doesn't make any sense and just shows you're looking at stats as your basis for argument...His AHL numbers don't standout, but he's also a developping 19-20-21 yr old playing on a offensively putrid AHL team, he managed to finish 4th in goal scoring his first year on the team (as a 19-20yr old) and finished 2nd in team scoring his second year, it's not a huge statistical increase, but it's an increase nonetheless, and when you factor in the talent surrounding him during that time, it's pretty good IMO.

I personally think he's going to reach the NHL no matter what ( I think that boom or bust label is one that fans who don't knowany better just regurgitate cause they don't know better) the real question is whether or not he can become that high octane winger (like Hossa or Elias for example) or whether he becomes some journeyman winger (like Dvorak or Czerkawski for example). And that, no one can answer yet, not even you.

Sorry Kostitsyn isn't shattering rookie records like Ovechkin or Crosby, but his progress is going at a slow but steady pace, and if you look at the Habs history with their prospects recently (Komisarek, Higgins, Plekanec, Perezhogin) it falls in line with what they've always done.

P.S.- btw, Kostitsyn did make the RSL as a 19 yr old, he only saw action in about 10 games or so, and in those only saw a few minutes, he was relegated to get more icetime.

Vanek earned a spot in large part by scoring 42 goals in the AHL, not as was alluded to earlier because “Buffalo is a weaker or shallower teamâ€. Nobody is clearing a spot on their roster for a goalscoring prospect who offers little else and scores 18 goals in an AHL season.
Of course, Vanek and Perezhogin will have consistency issues. They are still young players after all. However, they have both proven themselves capable at the AHL and RSL levels.
I’m not just looking at stats, but the opinion that a purely offensive player should produce is hardly an uncommon one. I’ve seen him many times in AHL games, NHL games and I’m pretty sure I’ve seen him at the rookie tournie in Ottawa. My perception has been of a player who doesn’t embarrass himself at any level, but “greatness†isn’t a word I’d use to describe him. I still haven’t seen what exactly it is “he does†or anything that will keep him in the NHL for a long career. I think his work ethic is questionable and I’m not sure that he knows what is going on-on the ice.

I’m not comparing him to Crosby or Ovechkin. I’m comparing him to the young careers of “elite†and “1st line†players in the league and the other youngsters from his draft class. He’s just not producing and his career isn’t moving as fast as theirs’ did.
If my kid gets “Dâ€s in Grade 9 and improves to “C+â€s in Grade 10… of course I’m happy that he’s showing improvement, but I’m not filling out his pplication to Harvard. “Elite and 1st liner†are as unattainable as Harvard for Kostitsyn IMO.
 

417

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Vanek earned a spot in large part by scoring 42 goals in the AHL, not as was alluded to earlier because “Buffalo is a weaker or shallower teamâ€. Nobody is clearing a spot on their roster for a goalscoring prospect who offers little else and scores 18 goals in an AHL season.
Of course, Vanek and Perezhogin will have consistency issues. They are still young players after all. However, they have both proven themselves capable at the AHL and RSL levels.
I’m not just looking at stats, but the opinion that a purely offensive player should produce is hardly an uncommon one. I’ve seen him many times in AHL games, NHL games and I’m pretty sure I’ve seen him at the rookie tournie in Ottawa. My perception has been of a player who doesn’t embarrass himself at any level, but “greatness†isn’t a word I’d use to describe him. I still haven’t seen what exactly it is “he does†or anything that will keep him in the NHL for a long career. I think his work ethic is questionable and I’m not sure that he knows what is going on-on the ice.

I’m not comparing him to Crosby or Ovechkin. I’m comparing him to the young careers of “elite†and “1st line†players in the league and the other youngsters from his draft class. He’s just not producing and his career isn’t moving as fast as theirs’ did.
If my kid gets “Dâ€s in Grade 9 and improves to “C+â€s in Grade 10… of course I’m happy that he’s showing improvement, but I’m not filling out his application to Harvard. “Elite and 1st liner†are as unattainable as Harvard for Kostitsyn IMO.

Hey, I don't necessarily disagree with your arguments, Kostitsyn's offensive production has been disapointing considering his draft status, I don't think anyone can deny that. However, I think your writing him off way too early, certain circumstances (like the Habs poor handling of his development - should of came over to the CHL 2 years ago) haven't helped him either. I think with the Bulldogs improving their talent level this year will go a long way in improving his offensive numbers, personally I couldn't careless how much he produces in the AHL, he's got great offensive tools which lead me to believe that if he rounds out the rest of his game and plays with players capable of exploiting his skills, he'll produce. It's his work ethic that has me worried beyond anything, we need to see a more sustained effort from him IMO.

I've seen you allude to the fact that Montreal's management thinks so 'highly' of him, that they signed Samsonov and traded for Johnson...I think that's a weak argument because Kostitsyn is only 21 yrs old, and given the fact they're a playoff contending team, why depend on a still raw 21yr old to play in your top 6 when you're already a team struggling to score goals.

My point is, he's a extremely talented kid IMO, i've seen him play live a couple of times and he's got everything you look for in a scoring winger, he just needs to harness all that talent and potential, and that's going to be the coaching staff's challenge with him. Time will tell I guess, I think this season will be extremely key for him, he's got to show a dramatic increase in production.
 

montreal

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Vanek earned a spot in large part by scoring 42 goals in the AHL, not as was alluded to earlier because “Buffalo is a weaker or shallower teamâ€. Nobody is clearing a spot on their roster for a goalscoring prospect who offers little else and scores 18 goals in an AHL season.
Of course, Vanek and Perezhogin will have consistency issues. They are still young players after all. However, they have both proven themselves capable at the AHL and RSL levels.
I’m not just looking at stats, but the opinion that a purely offensive player should produce is hardly an uncommon one. I’ve seen him many times in AHL games, NHL games and I’m pretty sure I’ve seen him at the rookie tournie in Ottawa. My perception has been of a player who doesn’t embarrass himself at any level, but “greatness†isn’t a word I’d use to describe him. I still haven’t seen what exactly it is “he does†or anything that will keep him in the NHL for a long career. I think his work ethic is questionable and I’m not sure that he knows what is going on-on the ice.

I’m not comparing him to Crosby or Ovechkin. I’m comparing him to the young careers of “elite†and “1st line†players in the league and the other youngsters from his draft class. He’s just not producing and his career isn’t moving as fast as theirs’ did.
If my kid gets “Dâ€s in Grade 9 and improves to “C+â€s in Grade 10… of course I’m happy that he’s showing improvement, but I’m not filling out his application to Harvard. “Elite and 1st liner†are as unattainable as Harvard for Kostitsyn IMO.

I agree he's not produced as had hoped. Still he was 2nd on his team in scoring despite being one of the youngest players on the team, and it was a bad Hamilton team that stuggled with so many callups, injuries and a very young inexperienced team. He looked like crap early in the year, don't know if not making the Habs was a problem but he turned things around after his 2nd call up. He was running the PP in the 2nd half and showed some good things imo. I also feel he was the Habs top AHL player.

I also agree his work ethic is questionable and I have to wonder how hockey smart he is. That said I know during his rookie year that Doug Jarvis worked closely with him to help him learn how to play more of a defensive game, which is evident since I saw him play in the RSL with CSKA, it was clear he had no clue how to play in his own end, or what to do when he doesn't have the puck. He's come a long way and made good improvements imo but he's still got a ways to go and may never put it all together. I expect him to play some games for the Habs but I really don't think he will win a roster spot full time although a good camp could change that.
 

neopreneur

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I agree he's not produced as had hoped. Still he was 2nd on his team in scoring despite being one of the youngest players on the team, and it was a bad Hamilton team that stuggled with so many callups, injuries and a very young inexperienced team. He looked like crap early in the year, don't know if not making the Habs was a problem but he turned things around after his 2nd call up. He was running the PP in the 2nd half and showed some good things imo. I also feel he was the Habs top AHL player.

I also agree his work ethic is questionable and I have to wonder how hockey smart he is. That said I know during his rookie year that Doug Jarvis worked closely with him to help him learn how to play more of a defensive game, which is evident since I saw him play in the RSL with CSKA, it was clear he had no clue how to play in his own end, or what to do when he doesn't have the puck. He's come a long way and made good improvements imo but he's still got a ways to go and may never put it all together. I expect him to play some games for the Habs but I really don't think he will win a roster spot full time although a good camp could change that.

I feel the same way.

I fully expect to see Kostitsyn playing alongside Grabovski in Hamilton at the start of the year... which is a good thing for both Kosty and Grabovski IMO.

As for the Brule vs Kostitsyn debate... I think it would be a safer bet to say that Brule will become the better NHL player. However it is not wise to count out Kostitsyn... I've seen him dominate/control a game all by himself and it's a thing of beauty (see WJC Belarus vs USA 2004).


edit: does anyone have that WJC game on video?? I've looked around the net for it but I can't find it :(
 

montreal

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I feel the same way.

I fully expect to see Kostitsyn playing alongside Grabovski in Hamilton at the start of the year... which is a good thing for both Kosty and Grabovski IMO.

As for the Brule vs Kostitsyn debate... I think it would be a safer bet to say that Brule will become the better NHL player. However it is not wise to count out Kostitsyn... I've seen him dominate/control a game all by himself and it's a thing of beauty (see WJC Belarus vs USA 2004).


edit: does anyone have that WJC game on video?? I've looked around the net for it but I can't find it :(

I have it on vhs.
 

HankyZetts

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P.S.- btw, Kostitsyn did make the RSL as a 19 yr old, he only saw action in about 10 games or so, and in those only saw a few minutes, he was relegated to get more icetime.

I remember reading somewhere that his coach for cska never played rookies or really didn't like playing his rookies... and kosty was scoring all kinds for cska2
 

HankyZetts

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and i also could be wrong (don't feel like checking) but didn't kosty outscore higgins in his first two years in the ahl or am i completely off the charts here?
 

Squeaky

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VHS? What's that ;)

Is it possible to convert that to digital? It's probably a pain in the a$s

My grandparents had that done to a bunch of home movies. I don't know how much it cost or anything, but it's certainly possible, and not really a hassle, provided you're willing to pay.
 

Freaky Habs Fan

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This year will be important for Kostitsyn. Last season, Hamilton was a pretty bad team...one of the worst of the AHL. It wasn't easy for Kost to rack up the points. Sometimes, it was a lack of effort, but other times, it was because his teamates were not good enough to finish the plays.

This year, he will have one of Chipchura and Grabovski on his side...if not the two of them. They are both skilled so we will see more of what Kostitsyn can do.

Also, I really believe that he will be a better player in the NHL. He was working pretty hard in the NHL, which make be believe that he just don,t want to be in the AHL. Not the best attitude to have, but in the end, if he become a real good scoring foward, everything will be just fine!
 

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