GG pens fans(subban vs letang)

[TT1]

http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showthread.php?t=1443819&page=3

from post #57 onwards. it started off as a general subban vs letang argument but it then escalated into a statistical comparison.(we focused on each players point inflation due to certain players). we arrived at this conclusion:

IN SUMMARY:

Crosby to Letang % of involvement = 38%
Malkin to Letang % of involvement = 26.6%
Plekanec to Subban % of involvement = 13%

**NOTE: These stats have a 10 game discrepancy between Crosby-Letang and an 11 game discrepancy between Malkin-Letang, thus their % is slightly deflated aswell (less than it should really be). Plek played as many or more games than Subban every year, which basically means the odds of him being involved in a scoring play with him were higher.

oh yea and in 2010-2011 crosby was involved in 40% of letangs pts while playing half the amount of games LOL (40 vs 80). we didnt even add that in due to statistical discrepancies, just thought it was funny tho.

2010-11 Season: Letang had 8 goals where Crosby had a primary assist on 2 and a secondary assist on 1. Where Letang had a primary assist Crosby had 4 goals and 1 secondary assist. Where Letang had a secondary assist Crosby had 9 goals and 3 primary assists. This means that Crosby was involved on 20 points of Letangs 50 or 40%.

Click to read more...

 

[JesusBouillon]

It's pretty obvious that playing with the 2 best players in the world will massively inflate your scoring totals. He's still a pretty good one dimensionnal offensive dman though.

 

[TT1]

well not everyone shares that opinion, the guy i was arguing with was dead set on proving that letang wasnt leeching pts off of either of them(not anymore than subban was from plek at least). this post basically sparked the discussion

yuhuh.. he already touched on that point. and letang being offencively superior to subban is a myth, all you have to do is watch both of them play . anywho this is a pointless conversation right now, we'll just have to compare them in 5 years. it would be nice if subban had someone like crosby to leech 2nd assists off of tho :[

and if you really go in depth:
http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/pdisplay.php?pid=89716 pk
http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/pdisplay.php?pid=80459 letang

compared to letang, pk has a higher ppg avg in his first 3 seasons. and these aren't opinions, they're facts

i dont think he particularly liked that part , anywho im obviously not taking away anything away from letang.. hes an elite PMD. i just got fed up with every pens fan overselling letangs offencive abilities while underselling pk's

 

[Hockey Joe]

What's the % for Markov and Subban?

 

[TT1]

didnt calculate that but it would obviously be much higher, as would any other regular PP pairing be

 

[FireBurningBin]

Watch as Suter wins the Norris
Butthurt everywhere

 

[overlords]

Watch as Suter wins the Norris
Butthurt everywhere

Nah. Majority seemed to be pretty okay with the possibility of Suter winning it. Although the main argument for Suter is that his coach wasn't Pejorative Slured enough to keep his minutes low for no reason. Subban can't make the same claim.

Letang being in the top 3, on the other hand, is a joke and it was pretty much unanimous over here.

 

[FireBurningBin]

Nah. Majority seemed to be pretty okay with the possibility of Suter winning it. Although the main argument for Suter is that his coach wasn't Pejorative Slured enough to keep his minutes low for no reason. Subban can't make the same claim.

Letang being in the top 3, on the other hand, is a joke and it was pretty much unanimous over here.

Problem is, nobody else stood out aside from Letang this season.
If he won it, I'd be pissed though.

 

[TT1]

Nah. Majority seemed to be pretty okay with the possibility of Suter winning it. Although the main argument for Suter is that his coach wasn't Pejorative Slured enough to keep his minutes low for no reason. Subban can't make the same claim.

Letang being in the top 3, on the other hand, is a joke and it was pretty much unanimous over here.

well at the end of the day his stats did warrant his candidature, i would be shocked if he didnt win the norris tbh. they usually tend to go with the politically correct answer

 

[Price My Man Crush]

I can't believe some people want to argue on Subban vs Letang. Is this even real life?
I mean, really? Are Pens fans so mad that they need to prove now how Letang is supposed to be way better than PK?

God knows I've watched a lot of Penguins hockey during the last few years and these two guys aren't on the same level. The good news? PK is only 24 years old. Letang is NOT an elite defenceman.

 

[BossBruin824]

Well, I'm a Boston fan so you know It's not easy saying anything nice about our #1 rival. Therefore, you can take this as fact. Letang can't hold Subbans jock. You can't just look at the stats, you have to look at the intangibles as well. PK can score, defend, pick up his bench, get the crowd wild and hit. If he could curb the diving a bit it would be difficult to find a chink in his amour.

 

[Habsawce]

Well, I'm a Boston fan so you know It's not easy saying anything nice about our #1 rival. Therefore, you can take this as fact. Letang can't hold Subbans jock. You can't just look at the stats, you have to look at the intangibles as well. PK can score, defend, pick up his bench, get the crowd wild and hit. If he could curb the diving a bit it would be difficult to find a chink in his amour.

Different players and completely different defensive hockey IQ. Letang is always thinking offense and takes unnecessary risks in games. While Subban does this, it's usually to make a big hit not to pinch at a bad time causing a 150 foot 2 on 1.

Subban's game is so much better in his own zone as well, it's not comparable. Letang really just chases the puck and plays D with his stick only, Subban can control the puck with his body. I just think besides putting up points the two players are nothing alike.

I look at Kris Letang as Mike Green, and there's nothing wrong with that, hell Erik Karlsson is a glorified Mike Green to me. But Norris caliber all around defensemen they are not even if Karlsson won a Norris.

 

[HuGo Sham]

Well, I'm a Boston fan so you know It's not easy saying anything nice about our #1 rival. Therefore, you can take this as fact. Letang can't hold Subbans jock. You can't just look at the stats, you have to look at the intangibles as well. PK can score, defend, pick up his bench, get the crowd wild and hit. If he could curb the diving a bit it would be difficult to find a chink in his amour.

thanks and i agree. i don't think letang is anywhere near as good as Subban. not in strength, skating, shot, d zone coverage etc...

 

[Wats]

Subban may not have a lot of ES points but he's on the ice for a lot of ES goals for and advanced stats show he helps create offense and prevent opposition scoring there too.

11/12 Norris Winner:
Karlsson is on for 3.36 ES GF/60 min and 2.54 ES GA/60 min

12/13 Norris Finalists:
Letang is on for 3.79 ES GF/60 min and 2.54 ES GA/60 min
Subban is on for 3.15 ES GF/60 min and 1.66 ES GA/60 min
Suter in on for 2.19 ES GF/60 min and 2.07 ES GA/60 min

Subban led his team in pts/game and 1 point away from leading it outright. A lot harder for him to pick up 2nd assists from forwards.

11/12 Norris Winner:
Karlsson gets 0.52 2nd ES Assists/60 min from his 1.72 ES PTS/60 min (30% of ES points = 2nd assists)

12/13 Norris Finalists:
Letang gets 0.95 2nd ES Assists/60 min from his 2.18 ES PTS/60 min (44% of ES points = 2nd assists)
Subban gets 0.18 2nd ES Assists/60 min from his 0.96 ES PTS/60 min (19% of ES points = 2nd assists)
Suter gets 0.55 2nd ES Assists/60 min from his 0.85 ES PTS/60 min (65% of ES points = 2nd assists)

Not trying to take anything away from any of the other D, just trying to show that Subban's ES production has been pretty unlucky.

In 11/12 Subban had 0.34 2nd ES Assists/60 min and in 10/11 Subban had 0.39 2nd ES Assists/60 min. The 0.18 2nd ES Assists/60 min he had this season is ridiculously low considering the number of goals he's on the ice for and his tendency to be in the opponent's zone (good fenwick/corsi). If anything, his ES bad luck cancels out any of his PP good luck - which seems to make people look at his numbers lowly.

link:
http://www.behindthenet.ca/nhl_stat...TL&c=0+1+3+5+17+18+19+20+23+24+26+27+13+15+29


If I had to take away from Letang, I notice he's gotten credit for 2nd assists in the past that aren't really deserved...at least once against the Habs this season: http://video.nhl.com/videocenter/console?hlg=20122013,2,640&event=PIT291&cmpid=embed-share-video

Even though Kennedy clearly tips his outlet pass he retained the assist.

 

[InglewoodJack]

Suter's gonna win, that's very likely. But Letang isn't in Subban's league.

 

[Estimated_Prophet]

You can throw most of these stats out the window as advanced stats are there for the people who don't understand the game and need stats to form an opinion for them.

I am a big fan of Letang but Subban was definitely better this season and I would take Subban going forward.

It is laughable that posters refer to Letang as a one dimensional offensive d-man. He is a very good hitter and is also a very strong skater with tremendous balance. Subban is simply bigger and stronger than Letang and he possesses a superior shot. It is very much an Apples to Apples comparison in which Subban comes out ahead. If they switch teams, Subban blows away Letang in the scoring race and runs away with the Norris, Karlsson style.

 

[hockeyfan2k11]

You can throw most of these stats out the window as advanced stats are there for the people who don't understand the game and need stats to form an opinion for them.

I am a big fan of Letang but Subban was definitely better this season and I would take Subban going forward.

It is laughable that posters refer to Letang as a one dimensional offensive d-man. He is a very good hitter and is also a very strong skater with tremendous balance. Subban is simply bigger and stronger than Letang and he possesses a superior shot. It is very much an Apples to Apples comparison in which Subban comes out ahead. If they switch teams, Subban blows away Letang in the scoring race and runs away with the Norris, Karlsson style.

He is one dimensional, though. Excellent offensively, but in his own zone he's a mess. I too like Letang and would take him on the Habs any day of the week. The problem is he has never really been in a good defensive system and has never really had a good defensive vet to learn from. Orpick doesn't count. PK had a lot of guys to learn from. Markov, Hamr, Gill, etc.

 

[TT1]

Subban may not have a lot of ES points but he's on the ice for a lot of ES goals for and advanced stats show he helps create offense and prevent opposition scoring there too.



Subban led his team in pts/game and 1 point away from leading it outright. A lot harder for him to pick up 2nd assists from forwards.



Not trying to take anything away from any of the other D, just trying to show that Subban's ES production has been pretty unlucky.

In 11/12 Subban had 0.34 2nd ES Assists/60 min and in 10/11 Subban had 0.39 2nd ES Assists/60 min. The 0.18 2nd ES Assists/60 min he had this season is ridiculously low considering the number of goals he's on the ice for and his tendency to be in the opponent's zone (good fenwick/corsi). If anything, his ES bad luck cancels out any of his PP good luck - which seems to make people look at his numbers lowly.

link:
http://www.behindthenet.ca/nhl_stat...TL&c=0+1+3+5+17+18+19+20+23+24+26+27+13+15+29


If I had to take away from Letang, I notice he's gotten credit for 2nd assists in the past that aren't really deserved...at least once against the Habs this season: http://video.nhl.com/videocenter/console?hlg=20122013,2,640&event=PIT291&cmpid=embed-share-video

Even though Kennedy clearly tips his outlet pass he retained the assist.

wow those numbers are really insane

 

[hockeyfan2k11]

Well, I'm a Boston fan so you know It's not easy saying anything nice about our #1 rival. Therefore, you can take this as fact. Letang can't hold Subbans jock. You can't just look at the stats, you have to look at the intangibles as well. PK can score, defend, pick up his bench, get the crowd wild and hit. If he could curb the diving a bit it would be difficult to find a chink in his amour.

Everyone dives. Hell, your team does a lot of it, especially Chara. So I think the diving crap is way overblown.

 

[Harry22]

Subban with Crosby and Malkin would be better than Letang is right now imo.

 

[TT1]

well subban is already putting up similar numbers on a weaker roster, so yea id say so

 

[Mathradio]

Suter's gonna win, that's very likely. But Letang isn't in Subban's league.

Subban can still win if Norris voters were biased towards late-season play...

 

[Haburger]

letang got completely destroyed by the bruins in every way possible.it was ugly.theres no doubt letang is great at offense but when it comes to defense he's nowhere near pk .subban has nevere been killed like that,and he never will be.

 

[dmanfish90]

Everyone dives. Hell, your team does a lot of it, especially Chara. So I think the diving crap is way overblown.

You mean especially Marchand (cue the video where he says to the Bruins' Athletic Trainer after lying on the ice faking some injury, "I was trying to draw a 5".)




Subban >>> Letang.

If Letang played with Crosby & Malkin, he easily gets 60+ points EACH SEASON.

 

[TT1]

and the norris goes to..