Getzlaf vs Thornton - entire careers up to today

GreatGonzo

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My post was self explanatory, Getzlaf for playoffs and Thornton for the regular season. When a player is that consistently better in the playoffs (I've watched more than enough of both in the past decade there) I have a hard time saying they are not technically the better player. He has just about as much skill but also has a killer instinct and uses his size and strength to his advantage more when the games get tough. Thornton can always pile up the assists but he's nowhere close to my top 20 guys I would take for a playoff run, and Getzlaf would be very close to that I think, for me anyway. I think Thornton's peak was massively inflated by those two high scoring seasons, and he's not as much better offensively than Getzlaf as it would appear from those two seasons, but like I said he still is the better regular season player by quite a bit.
All I got from your post was excuse after excuse trying to downplay Thornton. You focus on the post season because it's the only thing Getzlaf has....you say Thorntons stats are inflated, yet he was a top center before the lockout....and you say he isn't THAT much better offensively than Thornton?

If Thorntons stats are inflated, then so are Getzlafs, you do understand that right? Getzlaf started right after the lockout, was put as a 2nd line center on a stacked Anaheim team with solid wingers...he has had the luxury of playing a majority of his career with Bobby Ryan and Corey Perry...

Thornton dragged SJ out of the gutter and won a Hart and Art Ross with Cheechoo and Ekman as his wingers.....he had a 103, 36 goal season in the heart of the dead puck era with 2nd team AS honors......he also recently just had a dominant regular AND post season in 2016....he has been consistently one of the best playmakers in the game, and was still a dominant force well after the lockout.

But ya "inflated" is the term your going to throw out :laugh:

Thornton will most likely end his career within the top 20 in overall points, top 10 in assists, and top 10 in points among centers, AND could end up top 5 among centers in assists....but ya...He isn't THAT much better offensively. He only has a higher peak, better point totals, and better overall numbers.
 

Pominville Knows

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All I got from your post was excuse after excuse trying to downplay Thornton. You focus on the post season because it's the only thing Getzlaf has....you say Thorntons stats are inflated, yet he was a top center before the lockout....and you say he isn't THAT much better offensively than Thornton?

If Thorntons stats are inflated, then so are Getzlafs, you do understand that right? Getzlaf started right after the lockout, was put as a 2nd line center on a stacked Anaheim team with solid wingers...he has had the luxury of playing a majority of his career with Bobby Ryan and Corey Perry...

Thornton dragged SJ out of the gutter and won a Hart and Art Ross with Cheechoo and Ekman as his wingers.....he had a 103, 36 goal season in the heart of the dead puck era with 2nd team AS honors......he also recently just had a dominant regular AND post season in 2016....he has been consistently one of the best playmakers in the game, and was still a dominant force well after the lockout.

But ya "inflated" is the term your going to throw out :laugh:

Thornton will most likely end his career within the top 20 in overall points, top 10 in assists, and top 10 in points among centers, AND could end up top 5 among centers in assists....but ya...He isn't THAT much better offensively. He only has a higher peak, better point totals, and better overall numbers.
If we criticize Getzlaf for not yet having reached his peak in those high scoring seasons of 2005/06 and 2006/07, then i think its only fair to see if Thornton had reached his at the same age, 1999/00 and 2000/01. Even if the latter of them seem pretty good it featured a Thornton having more goals than assists so he was not the Thornton we know of today that is for sure.
Hmm, hypothetical peak Getzlaf in 2005/06... Is 35+75 in 82 games fair? That would probably mean 30+70 the following season.
 
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GreatGonzo

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If we criticize Getzlaf for not yet having reached his peak in those high scoring seasons of 2005/06 and 2006/07, then i think its only fair to see if Thornton had reached his at the same age, 1999/00 and 2000/01. Even if the latter of them seem pretty good it featured a Thornton having more goals than assists so he was not the Thornton we know of today that is for sure.
Hmm, hypothetical peak Getzlaf in 2005/06... Is 35+75 in 82 games fair? That would probably mean 30+70 the following season.

Neither should be criticized, that's my point. To use it AGAINST Thornton that he happened to break out right after the lockout is absurd. Getzlaf came in right after the lockout so he benefited from the change in play as well. The difference is Thornton had some great seasons as a top center before the lockout, he didn't just suddenly become elite.

Getzlafs peak wasn't nearly as impressive, but that's just how it was.
 

authentic

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All I got from your post was excuse after excuse trying to downplay Thornton. You focus on the post season because it's the only thing Getzlaf has....you say Thorntons stats are inflated, yet he was a top center before the lockout....and you say he isn't THAT much better offensively than Thornton?

If Thorntons stats are inflated, then so are Getzlafs, you do understand that right? Getzlaf started right after the lockout, was put as a 2nd line center on a stacked Anaheim team with solid wingers...he has had the luxury of playing a majority of his career with Bobby Ryan and Corey Perry...

Thornton dragged SJ out of the gutter and won a Hart and Art Ross with Cheechoo and Ekman as his wingers.....he had a 103, 36 goal season in the heart of the dead puck era with 2nd team AS honors......he also recently just had a dominant regular AND post season in 2016....he has been consistently one of the best playmakers in the game, and was still a dominant force well after the lockout.

But ya "inflated" is the term your going to throw out :laugh:

Thornton will most likely end his career within the top 20 in overall points, top 10 in assists, and top 10 in points among centers, AND could end up top 5 among centers in assists....but ya...He isn't THAT much better offensively. He only has a higher peak, better point totals, and better overall numbers.

You are arguing a whole lot of stuff that is irrelevant to what I was saying. If someone is that consistently a better player when it counts for over a decade and each have a large sample size on great teams, then I find it hard to call the regular season player the better player. Yeah he will go down as a better all time player, but I personally have a hard time saying he's better than Getzlaf.
 

GreatGonzo

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You are arguing a whole lot of stuff that is irrelevant to what I was saying. If someone is that consistently a better player when it counts for over a decade and each have a large sample size on great teams, then I find it hard to call the regular season player the better player. Yeah he will go down as a better all time player, but I personally have a hard time saying he's better than Getzlaf.
One of your flawed reasonings was "inflated numbers" but your going to say what I have said is irrelevant?

When was Getzlaf a better player "when it counted" for over a decade?

How do you find it hard to call the regular season player better when that said players regular season resume is far superior? He has a Hart, Art Ross, and multiple all star honors. He has led the league in assists and has been consistently one of the best playmakers in the game. He leads ALL forwards in points and assists for the 2000s....as well as being one of the best playmakers, centers, and player of all time? His stats and production cannot be simply shoved aside and treated inferior just because Getzlaf has had better playoff runs, and at a smaller sample size.

Pretty sure the guy with the Hart and Art Ross is the better player. Getzlaf is a great playoff performer, but has very little to show for it. He was a huge contributor to the 07 Ducks, but not close to their best player, and IMO not their best forward. It's not like Getzlaf leads all forwards in playoff stats and has a few cups with a smythe.....all he has his the numbers, and his regular season resume sorely lacks anything Thornton has done. "When it counts" isn't the best way to prove anything. Justin Williams is a much better playoff performer as well, and has the cups and Smythe to back it up....but you wouldn't say he is a better player, right? Some players are better in the playoffs, others aren't..but just because Getzlaf had better playoff numbers and a cup doesn't mean he is the better player or has had the better career.

Thornton sits 9th in goals, 2nd in assists, and 2nd in points among active players. He also sits 5th in assists, and 6th in points among active playoff leaders. Sure his PPG isn't as good as Getzlafs, but he is hardly a playoff bust. He still sits among some of the best. So calling him a regular season player is a bit off.

It's also VERY confusing that you agree that Thornton will go down as an all time better player....but you still feel he isn't better than Getzlaf? I'll say again....the player that will go down as an ALL TIME better player won't be better than the player that won't....what?
 

Pominville Knows

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One of your flawed reasonings was "inflated numbers" but your going to say what I have said is irrelevant?

When was Getzlaf a better player "when it counted" for over a decade?

How do you find it hard to call the regular season player better when that said players regular season resume is far superior? He has a Hart, Art Ross, and multiple all star honors. He has led the league in assists and has been consistently one of the best playmakers in the game. He leads ALL forwards in points and assists for the 2000s....as well as being one of the best playmakers, centers, and player of all time? His stats and production cannot be simply shoved aside and treated inferior just because Getzlaf has had better playoff runs, and at a smaller sample size.

Pretty sure the guy with the Hart and Art Ross is the better player. Getzlaf is a great playoff performer, but has very little to show for it. He was a huge contributor to the 07 Ducks, but not close to their best player, and IMO not their best forward. It's not like Getzlaf leads all forwards in playoff stats and has a few cups with a smythe.....all he has his the numbers, and his regular season resume sorely lacks anything Thornton has done. "When it counts" isn't the best way to prove anything. Justin Williams is a much better playoff performer as well, and has the cups and Smythe to back it up....but you wouldn't say he is a better player, right? Some players are better in the playoffs, others aren't..but just because Getzlaf had better playoff numbers and a cup doesn't mean he is the better player or has had the better career.

Thornton sits 9th in goals, 2nd in assists, and 2nd in points among active players. He also sits 5th in assists, and 6th in points among active playoff leaders. Sure his PPG isn't as good as Getzlafs, but he is hardly a playoff bust. He still sits among some of the best. So calling him a regular season player is a bit off.

It's also VERY confusing that you agree that Thornton will go down as an all time better player....but you still feel he isn't better than Getzlaf? I'll say again....the player that will go down as an ALL TIME better player won't be better than the player that won't....what?
What is so hard to understand in that he think about it that way, but he think it wont be the concensus?
Futhermore, he feels Getzlaf's playoffs catapults him to Thornton's level OVERALL even though he admits that his regular season resumé is worse.
 

GreatGonzo

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What is so hard to understand in that he think about it that way, but he think it wont be the concensus?
Futhermore, he feels Getzlaf's playoffs catapults him to Thornton's level OVERALL even though he admits that his regular season resumé is worse.

It's very hard to understand how a player who is going down as an all time great player isn't better than a player who won't....

We aren't talking about two players that have similar regular season resumes. Thornton is superior in every way, while having good playoff stats, but Getzlaf obviously has the better playoff stats. I don't really see how that rivals, or is better than a Hart, Art Ross, and all time stats....
 

authentic

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One of your flawed reasonings was "inflated numbers" but your going to say what I have said is irrelevant?

When was Getzlaf a better player "when it counted" for over a decade?

How do you find it hard to call the regular season player better when that said players regular season resume is far superior? He has a Hart, Art Ross, and multiple all star honors. He has led the league in assists and has been consistently one of the best playmakers in the game. He leads ALL forwards in points and assists for the 2000s....as well as being one of the best playmakers, centers, and player of all time? His stats and production cannot be simply shoved aside and treated inferior just because Getzlaf has had better playoff runs, and at a smaller sample size.

Pretty sure the guy with the Hart and Art Ross is the better player. Getzlaf is a great playoff performer, but has very little to show for it. He was a huge contributor to the 07 Ducks, but not close to their best player, and IMO not their best forward. It's not like Getzlaf leads all forwards in playoff stats and has a few cups with a smythe.....all he has his the numbers, and his regular season resume sorely lacks anything Thornton has done. "When it counts" isn't the best way to prove anything. Justin Williams is a much better playoff performer as well, and has the cups and Smythe to back it up....but you wouldn't say he is a better player, right? Some players are better in the playoffs, others aren't..but just because Getzlaf had better playoff numbers and a cup doesn't mean he is the better player or has had the better career.

Thornton sits 9th in goals, 2nd in assists, and 2nd in points among active players. He also sits 5th in assists, and 6th in points among active playoff leaders. Sure his PPG isn't as good as Getzlafs, but he is hardly a playoff bust. He still sits among some of the best. So calling him a regular season player is a bit off.

It's also VERY confusing that you agree that Thornton will go down as an all time better player....but you still feel he isn't better than Getzlaf? I'll say again....the player that will go down as an ALL TIME better player won't be better than the player that won't....what?

From 2007-17.

I'm sorry but if you have not once been the same caliber of player in the playoffs as you were in the regular seasons for several years, then that is a huge deduction from him compared to someone who's consistently elite in the playoffs. This isn't just based on numbers either, it's based on his play. There are many players who are considered better than another on all time lists that are not actually better players, I don't understand what you don't get about that. That can be due to a lot of factors like health and longevity which are largely out of a players control in many cases, or in this case consistently being a worse player in the playoffs than you were in the regular season for your ENTIRE career, which actually is in Thornton's control. He's the only elite player I can think of who never reached his regular season prime level in the playoffs even once with that many opportunities to do so.
 

GreatGonzo

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From 2007-17.

I'm sorry but if you have not once been the same caliber of player in the playoffs as you were in the regular seasons for several years, then that is a huge deduction from him compared to someone who's consistently elite in the playoffs. This isn't just based on numbers either, it's based on his play. There are many players who are considered better than another on all time lists that are not actually better players, I don't understand what you don't get about that. That can be due to a lot of factors like health and longevity which are largely out of a players control in many cases, or in this case consistently being a worse player in the playoffs than you were in the regular season for your ENTIRE career, which actually is in Thornton's control. He's the only elite player I can think of who never reached his regular season prime level in the playoffs even once with that many opportunities to do so.

It's the "when it counts" part that doesn't make sense. Your saying Getzlafs playoff resume from 07-17 is superior to Thorntons in that same time frame. I don't buy it. Between that time, Getzlaf is 5th in points and 4th in assists, Thornton is 9th in points and 3rd in assists. What's this difference that makes Getzlaf have the edge? Thornton has a better regular season resume within that time....

Again, your opinion shouldn't be. I understand the post season being more valuable, but again....you can't just completely undersell Thorntons resume to Getzlafs. If that's the case then guys like Hossa and Williams are better players than both Getzlaf and Thornton.

I just can't wrap my head around why a Hart and Art Ross is being passed over as non factors to Getzlafs better stats....
 

Sensinitis

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It's the "when it counts" part that doesn't make sense. Your saying Getzlafs playoff resume from 07-17 is superior to Thorntons in that same time frame. I don't buy it. Between that time, Getzlaf is 5th in points and 4th in assists, Thornton is 9th in points and 3rd in assists. What's this difference that makes Getzlaf have the edge? Thornton has a better regular season resume within that time....

Again, your opinion shouldn't be. I understand the post season being more valuable, but again....you can't just completely undersell Thorntons resume to Getzlafs. If that's the case then guys like Hossa and Williams are better players than both Getzlaf and Thornton.

I just can't wrap my head around why a Hart and Art Ross is being passed over as non factors to Getzlafs better stats....

Man. Willams and Hossa? Those guys were complimentary players on their teams at the times you are referring to. The guys Getzlaf should be compared to is the Brindamours, Kopitars, Kanes and Toewses.
Its not just performance but the context in which one is performing. Cheechoo beat Jagr for the Art Ross, yet he wasnt really a better goal scorer than Jagr that year was he?

As for Thornton and Getzlaf's playoff points, why use overall points/assists when Getzlaf's played much fewer games?
Never mind the fact that its not only about points in the game of hockey...
 

GreatGonzo

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Man. Willams and Hossa? Those guys were complimentary players on their teams at the times you are referring to. The guys Getzlaf should be compared to is the Brindamours, Kopitars, Kanes and Toewses.
Its not just performance but the context in which one is performing. Cheechoo beat Jagr for the Art Ross, yet he wasnt really a better goal scorer than Jagr that year was he?

As for Thornton and Getzlaf's playoff points, why use overall points/assists when Getzlaf's played much fewer games?
Never mind the fact that its not only about points in the game of hockey...

It's not about that though, it's about being better "when it counts" and those guys were better than Thornton in the playoffs. By his standards they are also better than Getzlaf as well. That's the twist to his POV.

Well given the context you just provided, Getzlafs 07 run should be treated the same way. Same with his playoffs. The context obviously being that just because he has a cup and better PO numbers doesn't make him a better player.....

Well I'm using his overall body of work since 06/07, the time Getzlaf came into the league. His playoff totals aren't bad, just not as impressive as his regular season totals. All while his regular season totals are much better than Getzlaf, then it becomes a playoffs>regular season debate.

It isn't about point totals? Because that's the only thing Getzlaf has over Thornton...bettter playoff stats. No one is saying Getzlaf is better or has had a better a career because of anything else.
 

Paul4587

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Thornton absolutely has had a better career but are people actually trying to say he's been better in the playoffs?

They both have roughly the same amount of points but one has played 40 more games. One produces at roughly an 80 point pace while the other produces at about a 60 point pace. Getzlaf also dominated Thornton head to head in the playoffs. How on Earth has Thornton been a better playoff performer?
 

GreatGonzo

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Thornton absolutely has had a better career but are people actually trying to say he's been better in the playoffs?

They both have roughly the same amount of points but one has played 40 more games. One produces at roughly an 80 point pace while the other produces at about a 60 point pace. Getzlaf also dominated Thornton head to head in the playoffs. How on Earth has Thornton been a better playoff performer?

No one has said that Thornton has been better in the playoffs. It's the idea that Getzlafs post season resume is superior to Thorntons regular season resume, which is ridiculous IMO.

Getzlaf has gotten nothing but full credit for being better in the playoffs. His 07 run is the only one for me that I feel is being overrated and overvalued, but that doesn't mean he wasn't great.
 

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