German teams in KHL?

[fedfed]

Reading Russian blogs (especially guys who follow Euro hockey closely), it seems like after Jokerit joining the KHL German clubs will be the next big target. Russia has close business ties with Germany (especially Gazprom, gas giant who owns KHL and is a sponsor of Schalke 04). After reading that Hartwall Arena "isn't the last deal" for the Arena Events Oy company created by Timchenko and Rotenbergs, many kinda assumed they talk about O2 Arena in Berlin is their next target. Many have also noted that KHL would probably welcome clubs from Munich (Red Bull company who likes to invest in sports would probably be interested) and Westfalia (there have been rumors about Dusseldorf in the KHL in the past).

Do you think it's possible in the near future?

Click to read more...

 

[vorky]

Can you give me a direct link to Russian blogs (PM)? I have one, lost it :/
This one in interesting

I am 100% sure that Arena Events Oy has such plans.. dont know if the arenas you named, but something is in the air Finland is just a beginning

 

[Joey Banana]

Why would any DEL team join the KHL?

 

[fedfed]

http://www.sports.ru/tribuna/blogs/stalk8r/
http://www.sports.ru/tribuna/blogs/1579sqr/
These two I read a lot. Their authors have a clue about European hockey and also are very active in comments to Sports.ru news, where a lot of fun discussions happen.

 

[fedfed]

Why would any DEL team join the KHL?

International exposure, money, ambition. Exact same reason why Jokerit did.

 

[Babula]

I'm so curious about the Red Bull project in future. I have no idea about next rumours regarding German cities, clubs, arenas, but It's of course not less interesting...

 

[Maverick41]

Why would any DEL team join the KHL?

I doubt a DEL team will join the KHL, except maybe Munich because Red Bull might like the idea and they could pull it off.

Unless Red Bull does it with Munich, I think it is more realistic they just put a new team in some location they like and try to sign the best German players out of the DEL.

I think it will eventually happen, but if they try to do it with a DEL-team like Mannheim or Berlin the fans will go ballistic because most of them don't want any piece of it.

 

[Joey Banana]

I doubt a DEL team will join the KHL, except maybe Munich because Red Bull might like the idea and they could pull it off.

Unless Red Bull does it with Munich, I think it is more realistic they just put a new team in some location they like and try to sign the best German players out of the DEL.

I think it will eventually happen, but if they try to do it with a DEL-team like Mannheim or Berlin the fans will go ballistic because most of them don't want any piece of it.

Munich seems unlikely. After so many failed attempts in that city to make hockey popular, RedBull has to be smart enough to patiently grow the fanbase instead of just forcing it again. If they do it right, they could be where Hamburg is now in 3-5 years.

Also, there is no import restriction on non-russian teams. I doubt they'd bother with the inflated prices of german players for more than 2-3 years (especially when they could get better players from NA for much less) and just sign the let's say 5 best german player's. It would most likely be a team very similar to what was very common in the late 90s/early 2000s in the DEL and fans weren't very happy about that.

I'm very skeptical about it.

 

[Maverick41]

Munich seems unlikely. After so many failed attempts in that city to make hockey popular, RedBull has to be smart enough to patiently grow the fanbase instead of just forcing it again. If they do it right, they could be where Hamburg is now in 3-5 years.

Also, there is no import restriction on non-russian teams. I doubt they'd bother with the inflated prices of german players for more than 2-3 years (especially when they could get better players from NA for much less) and just sign the let's say 5 best german player's. It would most likely be a team very similar to what was very common in the late 90s/early 2000s in the DEL and fans weren't very happy about that.

I'm very skeptical about it.

But if they are hoping to get any fans in Germany in the stands they would have to sign at least some high profile German players otherwise they will play in front of no more than 3,000 people.

 

[zecke26]

International exposure, money, ambition. Exact same reason why Jokerit did.

jokerit didn't yet. only the arena was bought. it may or may not happen.

and money? german teams hardly get a payroll of 4-5mill. and you think they can afford a KHL payroll? even with the help of gazprom i just don't see it yet.

german hockey has a lot of problems and they need to get solved before any team can even think about the KHL.

red bull though is another topic. but a possible KHL team would play in salzburg most likely, not in germany.

 

[vorky]

jokerit didn't yet. only the arena was bought. it may or may not happen.

and money? german teams hardly get a payroll of 4-5mill. and you think they can afford a KHL payroll? even with the help of gazprom i just don't see it yet.

german hockey has a lot of problems and they need to get solved before any team can even think about the KHL.

red bull though is another topic. but a possible KHL team would play in salzburg most likely, not in germany.

Jokerit is in KHL since 14/15 for 100000%

Money is not problem, believe me.

The problems of german hockey can be a backround for joining KHL.

 

[fedfed]

jokerit didn't yet. only the arena was bought. it may or may not happen.

and money? german teams hardly get a payroll of 4-5mill. and you think they can afford a KHL payroll? even with the help of gazprom i just don't see it yet.

german hockey has a lot of problems and they need to get solved before any team can even think about the KHL.

red bull though is another topic. but a possible KHL team would play in salzburg most likely, not in germany.

I think huge payrolls of KHL are somewhat a myth. Yes, for AHLers the money are huge. But European hockey powerhouses can afford it. If 16 highest-spending teams were making the playoffs in the KHL, a team with 9.5M euros payroll would make the postseason. Not a lot, let's face it.

European team can do well in the KHL with 20M euros budget - 10M salaries and 10M everything else.

 

[Coq Rouge]

I think huge payrolls of KHL are somewhat a myth. Yes, for AHLers the money are huge. But European hockey powerhouses can afford it. If 16 highest-spending teams were making the playoffs in the KHL, a team with 9.5M euros payroll would make the postseason. Not a lot, let's face it.

European team can do well in the KHL with 20M euros budget - 10M salaries and 10M everything else.

Though german teams don't have a budget of 20M. Here is a list of the budgets in the DEL 12/13: http://www.rp-online.de/sport/mehr/eishockey/del/del-12-13-die-etats-der-klubs-1.2992014

Berlin has the highest budget (7.5M) and payroll (4.4M) with Mannheim and Hamburg following at 7.4M and 7.0M resp. And you would think that the logistics will become much more expensive in the KHL.

So in order to be competitive you maybe need a 15M budget, because I doubt, that any german team would attract a large audience, if they aren't fighting for playoff spots at the least.

 

[fedfed]

Though german teams don't have a budget of 20M. Here is a list of the budgets in the DEL 12/13: http://www.rp-online.de/sport/mehr/eishockey/del/del-12-13-die-etats-der-klubs-1.2992014

Berlin has the highest budget (7.5M) and payroll (4.4M) with Mannheim and Hamburg following at 7.4M and 7.0M resp. And you would think that the logistics will become much more expensive in the KHL.

So in order to be competitive you maybe need a 15M budget, because I doubt, that any german team would attract a large audience, if they aren't fighting for playoff spots at the least.

I didn't say they do have a budget of 20M.

Jokerit will have a budget of 24M or so after having 8 last year. It all is very similar to Jokerit situation, actually. I'm sure a German team that competes for the playoffs would draw 12k at least on a nightly basis. I also think Germans are richer/more willing to buy than Finns and have less hockey traditions.

If they found a way to pull off a Jokerit deal, they'll sure make German teams work. Two or three of these - Berlin, Hamburg, Cologne/Dusseldorf, Munich.

 

[hage]

If this ever happens it has to be in Berlin, there's just no market for a KHL team anywhere else in Germany. They allready have a suitable arena and a large enough fanbase. But the majority of existing fans will not like the move.

Hockey, unlike football, is a local interest in Germany, people basically only follow hockey (if they follow it at all) if their hometown has a team in one of the upper leagues. If you put a KHL team in any German city you limit your audience to that city and except for Berlin there are no such cities in Germany. Why would anyone in Düsseldorf or Cologne trade the exictment of crowd pulling local derbys for matches against russian cities that noone in Germany has ever heard of?

Red Bull could pull it off on Munich aswell since they can afford to not give a **** about attendance and revenues and just sink as much money into it as they want, but I'm sure they're smarter then that.

 

[fedfed]

If this ever happens it has to be in Berlin, there's just no market for a KHL team anywhere else in Germany. They allready have a suitable arena and a large enough fanbase. But the majority of existing fans will not like the move.

Hockey, unlike football, is a local interest in Germany, people basically only follow hockey (if they follow it at all) if their hometown has a team in one of the upper leagues. If you put a KHL team in any German city you limit your audience to that city and except for Berlin there are no such cities in Germany. Why would anyone in Düsseldorf or Cologne trade the exictment of crowd pulling local derbys for matches against russian cities that noone in Germany has ever heard of?

Red Bull could pull it off on Munich aswell since they can afford to not give a **** about attendance and revenues and just sink as much money into it as they want, but I'm sure they're smarter then that.

What about Hamburg? 13k arena, city much bigger than many (vast majority of) KHL markets.
I think KHL could be better off bringing foreign clubs from hockey countries in 'pairs' to make an instant rivalry. Hamburg/Berlin I think would be a good pair.

Another pair from the central european region would be Vienna and Munich/Salzburg - wherever Mateschitz wants his team.

All these problems that 'no one will care' are temporary. Ask Medvescak fans who protested from their team joining EBEL. A couple years will pass, new rivalries will be created, especially if many Euro teams are brought in.

 

[vorky]

The construction of the stadium was funded by the Finnish entrepreneur Harry Harkimo and between the city of Hamburg, the Harkimo the land for a symbolic price of a Mark sold and run infrastructure improvements as a preparatory action for 12 million German marks (about 6.1 million euros). In October 2007, the Hall for estimated 75 million euros was sold Anschutz Entertainment Group to that.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/O2_World_(Hamburg)



AEG owns part of Swedish hockey team Djurgårdens IF; and the German ice hockey teams Hamburg Freezers and Eisbären Berlin.

 

[GermanNuck]

All these problems that 'no one will care' are temporary. Ask Medvescak fans who protested from their team joining EBEL. A couple years will pass, new rivalries will be created, especially if many Euro teams are brought in.

Nah, don't see it happen.

I mean I would be into a real european league. With teams from London to Moscow, but I don't see that russia+ some european cities working.
No offense, you guys are talking as if it was a deal already, but in Germany, no one cares even a bit for KHL. It's not a temporary thing. There's hardly any room for other sports besides football in Germany, and the DEL needed almost 20 years to gain some popularity, and it had its ups and downs. It lives from rivalries, naturally grown, not just two german teams taken from scratch put into the KHL.

 

[ficohok*]

What about Hamburg? 13k arena, city much bigger than many (vast majority of) KHL markets.
I think KHL could be better off bringing foreign clubs from hockey countries in 'pairs' to make an instant rivalry. Hamburg/Berlin I think would be a good pair.

Another pair from the central european region would be Vienna and Munich/Salzburg - wherever Mateschitz wants his team.

All these problems that 'no one will care' are temporary. Ask Medvescak fans who protested from their team joining EBEL. A couple years will pass, new rivalries will be created, especially if many Euro teams are brought in.

Hmmm....no fans ever protested from joining EBEL. Actually there were few hardliners that were against our joining to KHL, as they said that EBEL is our "natural territory" where we are playing against "natural" rivals like Jesenice, Olimpija, Sapa Fehervar and new ones like KAC.

 

[Sucro]

The point is that nobody is going to ask fans about their rivalries and position towards European league, notwithstanding joining the KHL. Arena Events is going to buy club and arena in Germany and there is nothing for you to do with it.

 

[fedfed]

Hmmm....no fans ever protested from joining EBEL. Actually there were few hardliners that were against our joining to KHL, as they said that EBEL is our "natural territory" where we are playing against "natural" rivals like Jesenice, Olimpija, Sapa Fehervar and new ones like KAC.

Croatian poster on the KHL board said this. I didn't make this up.
Here you go. http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showpost.php?p=68156973&postcount=101

 

[fedfed]

Nah, don't see it happen.

I mean I would be into a real european league. With teams from London to Moscow, but I don't see that russia+ some european cities working.
No offense, you guys are talking as if it was a deal already, but in Germany, no one cares even a bit for KHL. It's not a temporary thing. There's hardly any room for other sports besides football in Germany, and the DEL needed almost 20 years to gain some popularity, and it had its ups and downs. It lives from rivalries, naturally grown, not just two german teams taken from scratch put into the KHL.

They said the same about Prague... Bratislava... and now Helsinki.

In a few years there will be a European conference in the KHL. At least 16 or 18 Euro cities, I'm sure.

There are already 7:
Helsinki
Riga
Minsk
Donetsk
Prague
Bratislava
Zagreb

Milano is close. And that's not counting Moscow and St. Petersburg as European cities.

As Sucrologist pointed out, nobody will ever ask fans. Just like no one asks consumers when businessmen sell other companies. They'll just make the deal.

And in Germany, there's climate, and attendance #s back it up, to basically let fans know that if they won't be filling the arena, someone else will.

As one Russian blogger pointed out, the Jokerit move to KHL didn't look good for an outside observer. "Two or three more years and they would beg KHL to let them in".

 

[vorky]

The point is that nobody is going to ask fans about their rivalries and position towards European league, notwithstanding joining the KHL. Arena Events is going to buy club and arena in Germany and there is nothing for you to do with it.

Thank God at least one poster understands what going on. The Q is, what is plan of Arena Events/KHL and if they do their job perfectly like with Jokerit. Matter of time, nothing more. I bet on Hamburg, Munchen now, we will see whats happen.

Hamburg

-Harkimo built arena here
-Arena and club own by AEG (still selling arenas?), btw, Russians and Americans like to do bussiness
-Attendance is 60% in Hamburg, in 04/05 it was 92,8%. The same numbers, regres, is in Helsinki/Jokerit/Hartwall. Arena Events looks for arenas which has potential to be profitable and which hockey tenants has poor attendance (Jokerit, Freezers) .. as Rotenberg said, we will try to sold out arena all the time. It seems DEL does not work in Hamburg, what about KHL? Hamburg has great location (Sweden, Denmark), maybe there is a potential.

Munchen

-Red Bull joining MHL, is it "test" before KHL?
-new arena is going to be built, right? Btw, will Harkimo build it?

Berlin
-would be great to have Berlin, but attendance is great here. So no reason to search something like (opposite of Hamburg). Or I am wrong and Eisbären will promote KHL? Who knows, but I prefer Hamburg/Munchen now. We will see.

If the info is still correct (from 2011), KHL is in talks with 4 DEL clubs.

 

[ficohok*]

Croatian poster on the KHL board said this. I didn't make this up.
Here you go. http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showpost.php?p=68156973&postcount=101

Ah...billy piton was talking about one or two jealous fathers who's sons didn't make it in hockey

 

[Dfire]

This all reminds me of the discussions about whether intelligent extraterrestrial life exists or not.

Some people want to believe that there is someone out there somewhere who is willing to pay the bills. But if there is this someone, why isn't Torpedo Leipzig shooting for the Gagarin cup yet? I guess I'm a sceptic (but I do believe in aliens).