German Players in North America

Discussion in 'Germany' started by Maverick41, Sep 13, 2014.

  1. Maverick41 Registered User Sponsor

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    I don't think Draisaitl is a good example. He would have developed into a great player pretty much anywhere.
    But there are others who appear to have done well or are doing well. I'm thinking about Markus Eisenschmid, Marc Michaelis, Nico Sturm, Manuel Wiederer, Leon Gawanke, etc.
    However, there are also many for whom it hasn't worked out.

    There have only been very few kids who have gone to Sweden as junior players. And they were mostly low key prospects playing at the lower levels in Sweden.
    Lean Bergmann went to Sweden and did not really break through there and then went to North America. We'll see how that turns out.
    I think somebody like Dominik Kahun could have benefitted from development in the Swedish junior system, but just like the North American path it's not going to work for everyone, and it's hard to tell which way would work best for a particular prospect.
     
  2. jnk96 Registered User

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    The problem with players going abroad and not working out isn't that it's a bad development option. It's that teams don't have scouts on different continents (not even different countries), so they completely rely on agents. And all agents want is to get players to where they want them.

    I could've told you that Bappert, Eckl, Alexandrov, and Köhler wouldn't be impact players in the CHL this year. Yet they all got drafted because they have good agents who can get them there.
     
  3. S E P H @SEPH_WHL

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    Not just Bokk, look how good the Sweden development system has been for not only their country, but for players outside of Sweden such as Kopitar, Fiala, Pastrnak, etc. (probably missing many more). If I am a player with talent, I go to Sweden to develop. This doesn't mean Stutzle will bust or anything by going to the NCAA instead, everyone is different in the path they want to develop. I just wish more German prospects saw Sweden as a legitimate junior/development option instead of coming to the USHL and CHL just because it is the "most scouted" leagues.
     
  4. kabidjan18 Registered User

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    Or there's the route of you know, Jakub Voracek, Vladislav Namestnikov, Nikolaj Ehlers, Gabriel Landeskog. Just a thought.

    They don't come to the USHL or the CHL because it is the most scouted league. They come because it is a legitimate junior development option. The Swedish SuperElit is about the same level as the NAHL, perhaps slightly better. If you don't have a legitimate shot at playing senior level hockey then there's not that much incentive to go. Not every player is Bokk, not every player can do that.
     
  5. Albatros Registered User

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    How many players have been drafted and made it to the NHL over the NAHL since the USNTDP left the league in 2009? Connor Hellebuyck is the only one? I think that's a bit harsh on J20 SuperElit. For Bokk going there instead of some North American bush league was definitely the right choice.
     
  6. kabidjan18 Registered User

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    Oh no please, let's play this game. How many people have gotten drafted from the J20 SuperElit and made the NHL since 2009 (2010 draft and on), outside of the ones I prefaced prior, the ones who played senior level hockey. Oskar Sundqvist. Oscar Dansk. Johan Larsson. Marcus Sorenson. John Klingberg. Anton Blidh. Gustav Forsling. Perhaps I missed one, but of the ones I got. One good player. The rest you've not heard of, or only have a vague recollection of. How mighty it is indeed that I would even bring up the comparison. Neither is the argument valid that the league which produces the most NHL players is the best. More players go from the CHL to the NHL than the NCAA. That doesn't make the CHL more competitive.

    You know what's harsh on the SuperElit? The stats I drew my conclusion from. Expats from Sweden's SuperElit to the NAHL. Organized by the season they joined. Increase means they saw in increase in their scoring, because of course who wouldn't just score like crazy in a bush league right? Push is for an increase less than a quarter point per game, which is a very standard increase for a junior. Decrease means they actually scored more in the SuperElit as a younger player than they did in the NAHL one year older. Sorted by year, but some players who played multiple seasons will not be listed twice.
    2017
    Increase: Palmqvist, Garcia, Jigemark
    Push: Bjorkman
    Decrease: Frisell, Moberg, Karlsson, Sandberg, Johansson
    2016
    Increase: Eriksson, Stenlund
    Push: Loof, Esjbors, Nylander
    Decrease: Warman, Maier, Liljekvist
    2015
    Increase: Gabor, Strisberg, Andren, Sjodahl, Celec
    Push: Lundgren, Karlstrom, Sundberg
    Decrease: Winborg, Rygaard, Mellberg, Ostling
    2014
    Increase: Emanuelsson, Pettersson, Ohrvall, Larsson,
    Push: Synnelius, Kullberg, Ingman, Erb Ekholm, Ehlers, Santesson
    Decrease: Lindell, Odd, Brun, Karlsson, Berglund, Vidmar, Bjorklund, Athley, Sorgardt, Soje, Nilsson

    Not to mention SuperElit alumni like Klingberg, Stromberg, Wellen, Hansson, Frolander and others who couldn't be evaluated because they got cut from NAHL teams so fast.

    How come athletes from the SuperElit aren't dominating our little bush league over here when they get here? How come most either see standard growth increases or worse, see decreases in their point totals? It's the racist American coaches that's it, or having to adjust to living in another western country. What about non-swedes? What about Americans going to Sweden?

    It's hard to document non-swedes, but for example Ondrej Zehnal, Czech, went from the SuperElit to the NAHL. His ppg dropped too. Interesting. And he had played and lived in the US as a child. His brother Richard made the same move, and saw an increase of .03 PPG, despite again being a year older.

    It's also kinda funny that it seems all the traffic is to come to the little bush league over here. Very little traffic the other way, if any. Ok ok, perhaps it's because the little bush league is overflowing with scouts. Not true, but we'll pretend it is. There just isn't that much data on native americans, or even other non-Swedish Europeans going from the NAHL to the SuperElit.

    Bokk chose correctly because he got senior level playing time. Not because the SuperElit is so amazing a league. Neither was he considering the NAHL, because the USHL and CHL are options. When athletes (generally with not shot at SHL playing time) ask me about the Swedish route or the NAHL, based on what other athletes with experience have told me and having watched both leagues, I usually say something to the effect of "the SuperElit is slightly more competitive, the NAHL is much more physical but the SuperElit is faster and more skilled." From that they can choose what fits them best.

    I've noticed the German hockey community has a very strong distaste for North American leagues, particularly lower tier leagues, NAHL players would never get even consideration from them. Austria too, to be fair. But France is more open minded and that's how they've gotten Gabin Ville, Bastian Maia, Louis Boudon...or Filips Buncis with Latvia.
     
    Last edited: Jan 8, 2018
  7. Albatros Registered User

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    The SuperElit is a decent junior league while the NAHL is nowadays not on the path of any player with serious NHL hopes (an undrafted late bloomer or two might make it accidentally). If Bokk wants to try his luck in North America then the address has to be a step higher or it's better to stay in Sweden. It's not the best junior league in the world, but at least it is top tier and enables playing with men when you're ready.

    Guys like Zehnal were never going to make the NHL or even the SHL, so good for them if they found their luck in the lower leagues across the pond. No shame in that, just another talent level and different aspirations.
     
  8. kabidjan18 Registered User

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    I never said anyone should go to the NAHL. I said the USHL or the CHL (USHL in this case) is a good option for Stutzle. I said Bokk went to Sweden because he had a shot at SHL games, and he has played SHL games, I never questioned his decision either. This is what I said.
    Someone said the only reason someone comes to the USHL or CHL is because they have the illusion scouts will be there. I was saying if they can't play at a level like the SHL or Allsvenskan, then USHL is higher level than the SuperElit because the SuperElit is only so much better than the NAHL. Then in that case it makes sense for them to choose the USHL and not the SuperElit.
     
  9. Albatros Registered User

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    Sure, USHL and CHL are legit paths. But there's not much point for a German talent to go to NAHL because it's essentially a dead end - can just as well stay in Germany. That's why SuperElit is decidedly different.
     
  10. jnk96 Registered User

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    I think you are all trying to simplify this decision too much – it's not all about which league is superior or where the most scouts are. Bokk, for example, didn't go to Sweden because of the outlook to get pro games. He actually wanted to play junior in Canada. But here's why he didn't go:

    The club that drafted him (Prince Albert)...
    • ...was not in his preferred league (OHL).
    • ...was not expected to be and currently is not competitive (last in WHL East Division).
    • ...is based in a town of 35,000 people (which is even less than his hometown Schweinfurt, which is considered small in Germany), with literally nothing around. This is not the most attractive place to go for a German player.
    • ...is 7,163 kilometres away from home.
    Don't get me wrong, Vaxjo isn't huge either. It's also in a different country. But, it's bigger, closer to home, and the club is more competitive than PA. Now that along with the prospect of playing pro is what can make this decision.

    These were just some example points that might've played a role; what I'm trying to say is: This is not an easy decision for a young player and there is an endless number of things to consider.

    Two more examples:
    • The SHL has a higher quality than the CHL. But, the CHL may be a better development league because teams are focused on developing young players and give them the ice time they need.
    • The CHL has higher quality than the USHL. But, the USHL allows kids to go to college later on.
    As to the major advantage of North American leagues over European ones: It's not that it's the only (or even easier) way to get scouted. NHL clubs have their scouts everywhere, and even independent scouting services have scouts all over Europe, most importantly Sweden, Finland, and Russia.
    However, most NHL picks come out of North American junior leagues. Hence, playing in one of those leagues is a better way to be measured against the best players in your age group. It's incredibly difficult to evaluate players like Dominik Bokk in the DNL. It's also incredibly difficult to evaluate him in the SHL. Because in the DNL, he's far above average, but in the SHL, he's below, and playing against men much older and experienced than him.
    In North America, you get a chance to play with and against the top prospect from your age group, along with drafted NHL prospects, while getting the best possible development and great scouting exposure.

    There's a lot to consider.
     
  11. kabidjan18 Registered User

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    Of course it's different, it has a parent club, that's different. I never claimed they were the same thing or people should go there.
     
  12. kabidjan18 Registered User

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    Of course there is. But the prior conversation surrounding stutzle hasn't been very nuanced in nature...
     
  13. Maverick41 Registered User Sponsor

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    While the NAHL is certainly not the greatest option and many players who went there returned rather quickly, there are a couple of players who have done quite well going that route. Marc Michaelis, Parker Tuomie and Nico Sturm all played in the NAHL, had success there, moved up to the USHL and had success again, and they are all playing pretty well in the NCAA right now. Will any of them make it to the NHL? Maybe not, but I doubt they would have developed as well if they had stayed in Germany.
    Obviously absolute top prospects from Germany should not and would not play in the NAHL, but others might give it a shot and some of them could make it work for them, especially if they are intersted in the NCAA-route.
     
  14. Albatros Registered User

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    For these guys access to the NCAA is good because it gives them a higher education playing hockey, something that is of course possible in Germany too but not the same way with full concentration. Tuomie's American father played college hockey as well and never made it to the DEL in Germany (except as a coach), the son could have the same fate but at least has other future perspectives then. Many of Tuomie's and Michaelis' teammates from the juniors in Mannheim, Lennart Palausch, Alex Lambacher, Dominik Tiffels, and Tobias Kircher, also spent a year in the NAHL but without going to college and have all been in the elevator between the DEL and the DEL2 or the Oberliga since.
     
  15. kabidjan18 Registered User

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    This right here is literally like the biggest problem in German hockey in my opinion. Not at all restricted to former NAHL players. Your import rules make our points system look amazing.
     
  16. S E P H @SEPH_WHL

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    LOL at calling SuperElit the same level as NAHL. Just LOL at that.
     
  17. kabidjan18 Registered User

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    Well if this response isn't the definition of pure and unadulterated ignorance then I don't know what is.

    Ignore the statistics. Ignore anecdotes. Ignore the outcome metrics. Rely on stereotypes. Mock others who don't agree with your opinion.

    If you've got numbers to counter, be my guest. If not. Feel free to keep laughing, after all, ignorance is bliss.

    PS. Note to Albatros. The official alumni list seems incomplete. This is semantical and by now irrelevant but at least Stolarz is missing.
     
    Last edited: Jan 8, 2018
  18. Munchkin10 Registered User

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    Schiemenz going back to the OHL, this time Windsor...
     
  19. jnk96 Registered User

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  20. Maverick41 Registered User Sponsor

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    I had completely missed that Magnus Eisenmenger had left Djurgardens and joined the Eisbären Juniors DNL team.
    Damn, work. I barely have time to follow hockey anymore.

    EDIT: I had first thought it was Maximilian Eisenmenger who had joined Eisbären. That's why I posted in this thread.
     
    Last edited: Jan 14, 2018
  21. Maverick41 Registered User Sponsor

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    USHL Phase I Draft:
    Sioux City Musketeers selected Tim Stützle in the 4th round (pick #52).

    USHL Phase II Draft:
    Tim Fleischer was selected by Cedar Rapids RoughRiders - Round 2 / Pick 21
    Nicolas Appendino was selected by Fargo Force - Round 4 / Pick 56
    Joshua Samanski was selected by Fargo Force - Round 13 / Pick 210
    Edwin Schitz was selected by Omaha Lancers - Round 16 / Pick 259
    Justin Schütz was selected by Sioux City Musketeers - Round 22 / Pick 344
     
    Last edited: May 8, 2018
  22. herbst20 Registered User

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    What can you tell me about Tim Fleischer? Normally we don't see Germans go this high in the USHL draft.
     
  23. Maverick41 Registered User Sponsor

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    While I have watched some games of Fleischer, I was usually focussing on his teammates so this is still based on very limited viewings. From what I remember he is a pretty good playmaker who has very few weaknesses in his game. I like his movement with and without the puck. And from what I remember he has a decent hockey IQ.

    Over the weekend I will check if some of his team's games are still available online and if they are I'll watch a couple just focussing on Fleischer, and give you some more feedback.
     
  24. KahunWOW Registered User

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    Do the rankings have any meanings here? If yes, shouldn't Stützle have been drafted much higher?
     
  25. Maverick41 Registered User Sponsor

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    Maximilian Kammerer has signed with the Washington Capitals.

    I can't believe I didn't notice this yesterday.
     

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