German Football 2018/2019

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TheMoreYouKnow

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May 3, 2007
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I remember when the DFB was a laughing stock back in the 90s. Provincial, corrupt, lazy. Of course it became that way because of arrogance and officials more interested in their fiefdom-building than anything else.

But over the last 10 years the DFB has been praised nearly universally, they saved German football, German football is the role model of the world now, we'll dominate forever etc.. People scoff and shook their head about the 'dark old days'. Of course all these officials - from Löw to the office manager - think that they're the reason for why German football is so great. They're high on their own supply. This World Cup is just a minor issue, an accident, one they'd rather sweep under the rug. And of course..their arrogance and complacency has basically taken us full circle.
 

samabam

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May 3, 2006
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Yup, I remember 2000 pretty well, they were bottomed out back then. Incidentally, 2002 was the last world cup where I really followed the national team and felt a bit of excitement about it. Sure the results (and also the way they played) got way better the following years, but the detachement started to take off, too. WIth Völler it got ok to react bitchy about criticism( the end of that development was Kroos after the Sweden game this year), in 2006 there was this horrawful Film about the "Sommermärchen" and starting then it became ever more evidentally that everything about the national team just was controlled by this machine in the background, that was not meant for the "normal" fans to grasp. Of course thats just the way soccer went in the last few years and nothing particularly exclusive to the german national team, but it aint for me.
 

Eisen

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Sep 30, 2009
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Yup, I remember 2000 pretty well, they were bottomed out back then. Incidentally, 2002 was the last world cup where I really followed the national team and felt a bit of excitement about it. Sure the results (and also the way they played) got way better the following years, but the detachement started to take off, too. WIth Völler it got ok to react *****y about criticism( the end of that development was Kroos after the Sweden game this year), in 2006 there was this horrawful Film about the "Sommermärchen" and starting then it became ever more evidentally that everything about the national team just was controlled by this machine in the background, that was not meant for the "normal" fans to grasp. Of course thats just the way soccer went in the last few years and nothing particularly exclusive to the german national team, but it aint for me.
That's when Die Mannschaft became a brand.
 

Eisen

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Sep 30, 2009
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Duesseldorf
I remember when the DFB was a laughing stock back in the 90s. Provincial, corrupt, lazy. Of course it became that way because of arrogance and officials more interested in their fiefdom-building than anything else.

But over the last 10 years the DFB has been praised nearly universally, they saved German football, German football is the role model of the world now, we'll dominate forever etc.. People scoff and shook their head about the 'dark old days'. Of course all these officials - from Löw to the office manager - think that they're the reason for why German football is so great. They're high on their own supply. This World Cup is just a minor issue, an accident, one they'd rather sweep under the rug. And of course..their arrogance and complacency has basically taken us full circle.
Youth academies was the key. Nothing much else.
 

samabam

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Youth academies was the key. Nothing much else.

yeah, the current coach of my favourite club talked about that on a member meeting a few years back, in his opinions the reason for the succes was that coaching got professionalized (of course as another coach he might be biased) especially on the youth development teams.
 
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JoemAvs

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Jul 2, 2011
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It's actually quite shameful. Özil was certainly not the reason. And while I do believe Erdogate was a mistake (by both parties) it's time to let it go. If I was Özil, I'd give them the middle finger and walk. Who blames the people for pouring oil on a delicate situation?

Yeah its shameful how Bierhoff and Grindel are now trying to shift away blame from them to save their own butts.

But it wasn't a mistake by both sides. It was horrible decisionmaking by Özil and Gündogan first and foremost. If they would have displayed even an ounce of good judgement, our dorks in chief wouldn't have been put in an admittedly tough spot when it comes to handling a situation like this. Of course they screwed that up but given who is in charge that was to be expected.

But Ilkay atleast stepped up and faced the music. That is why everyone is talking about Özil and not him now.

Mesut did what he always does when the going gets tough. He ducked away. I certainly believe this Erdogate garbage played a certain role in what happened. Not as big as Jogi & Friends completely screwing the pooch but it certainly had its role in this whole mess.

They honestly should have kicked him out beforehand if he as they are now saying did not want to help defuse the situation at all and if it was as bad as they are making it out to be. Now in hindsight putting all of the blame on him for this mess is just silly.

In a perfect world all of Jogi, Bierhoff and Özil get kicked out. We really need a fresh start.
 

Albatros

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Aug 19, 2017
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There seem to be too many fractions and Özil is not really even a big part of it, I would let him do his decision on his own and retire all those older players now that are unlikely to play a major role in four years anyway. But if all of Löw, Bierhoff, Grindel stay, I doubt a fresh start is even theoretically possible no matter what changes to the team they do.
 

cgf

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Oct 15, 2010
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I really hope Mesut retires after this Bullshit, he’s never deserved the abuse he gets from casual fans and as we can see the casuals are buying into Bierhoff’s BS hook, line n sinker.

He’s been way too great a player for us for far too long to have put up with the constant scapegoating. Easily the most under-appreciated NTer of this century so far.
 

JoemAvs

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Jul 2, 2011
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I really hope Mesut retires after this Bull****, he’s never deserved the abuse he gets from casual fans and as we can see the casuals are buying into Bierhoff’s BS hook, line n sinker.

He’s been way too great a player for us for far too long to have put up with the constant scapegoating. Easily the most under-appreciated NTer of this century so far.
I am certainly not a casual but yeah. I don't think many are falling for Bierhoff. Most agree that both should just gtfo.

You are dead wrong.
Özil is probably the most overrated NTer of the last century by quite a bit (although you could make an argument for Poldi. But atleast Lukas delivered early on in his career so I am not complaining all too much. Mesut on the other hand...
His performances in the big games never warranted the status he had under Jogi..

But yeah. We all can agree that he should retire asap.
 

cgf

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Are you real? If you're just f***ing with me then kudos, I probably deserve it, but if you're real then I just...can't even...
 

JoemAvs

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Jul 2, 2011
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Are you real? If you're just f***ing with me then fine, I probably deserve it, but if you're real then I just...can't even...

Yeah I am real. Of course I enjoy needling you a bit ;) but I really do believe that Özil is crazy overrated. Atleast on here and by you. 10 years from now, no one will talk about Özil looking back at the success we had. Neuer, Lahm, Schweinsteiger, Klose, Boateng, Kroos. These will be the names that will be remembered. Özil might or might sneak into the conversation together with Müller and maybe Hummels but I somewhat doubt it.

He certainly is not an all-time great that will go down in history the way you seem to believe. He had the talent to do it but he clearly failed in that regard.
 

cgf

FireBednarsSuccessor
Oct 15, 2010
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Yeah I am real. Of course I enjoy needling you a bit ;) but I really do believe that Özil is crazy overrated. Atleast on here and by you. 10 years from now, no one will talk about Özil looking back at the success we had. Neuer, Lahm, Schweinsteiger, Klose, Boateng, Kroos. These will be the names that will be remembered. Özil might or might sneak into the conversation together with Müller and maybe Hummels but I somewhat doubt it.

He certainly is not an all-time great that will go down in history the way you seem to believe. He had the talent to do it but he clearly failed in that regard.

I have more faith in our countrymen than that. In time more will start to give Mesut the credit he deserves.
 

JoemAvs

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Jul 2, 2011
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I have more faith in our countrymen than that. In time more will start to give Mesut the credit he deserves.
I really doubt it. He already was one of the least liked World Champions and this Erdogate will certainly make it worse. I think especially after this exit, history will not be kind to him at all here in Germany.


Also Arsenal probably won't make it back to the big stage in the rest of his prime so he won't even really have a great chance to finally quiet people like me who believe that he is basically the German Jay Cutler (sorry I found that comparison a few minutes ago and I couldn't help myself.)

Özil is a mesmerizing talent who should have accomplished way more than he did given his talents. He is a luxury player who never managed to impose his will when it really counted.
Legends get remembered by their individual performances when it really counted. Just remember what Zidane did when titles were on the line. Or Messi. Ronaldo (fat one and real one). Schweinis final performance. Robbens goal in the CL. Bale this season. Kroos and Modric bossing the midfield for 3 straight Cl titles. Ramos being an utter .... that always lead his team to the win fairly or not.

Thats the kind of stuff that will be remembered. Özil simply does not have the feats. At all. Yes he won the WC but given that most people in Germany were desperate to bench him in 2014 (myself included), I wouldn't exactly call that his defining moments (hopefully for him).

I have faith that Özil will always be acknowledged for the massive talent he had and that he was part of the 2014 WC champion. But I have also faith that no one will ever mention him in the same conversation as a Beckenbauer, Matthäus, Klinsmann, Lahm, Schweinsteiger or Klose.
 

cgf

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Not having him anymore should kill the "he's a luxury player" myth. Especially if Kroos sticks around so all of Mesut's good actions can't be attributed to Toni.

And time should help people see how dumb "erdogate" was and how pathetic Bierhoff's attempts to shift the blame were.
 

JoemAvs

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Jul 2, 2011
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Not having him anymore should kill the "he's a luxury player" myth. Especially if Kroos sticks around so all of Mesut's good actions can't be attributed to Toni.

And time should help people see how dumb "erdogate" was and how pathetic Bierhoff's attempts to shift the blame were.

What?
Are you serious? Erdogate was ridiculously dumb. There is nothing time will do about that. If anything it will be remembered as worse. Sure Bierhoff and Grindel deflecting the blame they deserve away from them towards Özil is ridiculous and pathetic. But there are no two valid opinions about what Özil and Gündogan did there. It was beyond stupid and certainly did harm the team to some extent.

That was a huge mistake by Ilkay and Mesut and Mesut ducking away and not even trying to clear the air was very pathetic by him and made it 10x worse. There really are no two valid sides to this story. They screwed up big time with that Erdogan bs.
I get that footballers are not known for their political knowledge and their intelligence but even that can't justify what they did there only a couple of months ahead of a WC. That this would blow up in their faces was blatantly obvious.
 

TheMoreYouKnow

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May 3, 2007
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To illustrate the current situation. The DFB board have said that Löw can continue if he wants to and he has confirmed he wants to do so. Of course, they all said things need to change, just with the same personnel.

They will only talk about changes after they have been given the analysis of the tournament by Löw. The DFB leadership has already said that they don't feel they are competent to analyze what want wrong themselves. In other words, Löw who has already been guaranteed his job security can now tell them what went wrong in Russia i.e. he is given the rare luxury of narrating and evaluating his own failure without any potential consequences for himself.

I saw a clip of Christoph Daum talk on Doppelpass yesterday. Regardless of his personal issues, the man has forgotten more about football than most people will ever know, so I tend to pay some attention when he talks. I think he was right on point on most stuff. He talked about the arrogance of Löw and Bierhoff, the complacency and ignorance of warning signs.

He mentioned how after Euro 2016 there was a conference where most national team coaches in UEFA discussed and analyzed the tournament. And one of the specific points discussed was the problem of possession football without generating danger (which had already reared its head at Euro 16), and how to adjust to the way teams now play vs possession teams. Löw had skipped the conference. Daum rightfully pointed out that everyone - no matter how distinguished and successful - needs someone who they trust and who can point out that things are going wrong, that they are getting complacent. He - same as all of us probably - doesnt feel like Löw and Bierhoff still had that. They have become the last authority on themselves and their own performance. Now where I differ from him is that he feels Löw can still correct that problem. He may just have said that because Löw is going to stay anyway, but a figure of authority who grows to be out of touch and then manages to change course and fix things is exceedingly rare. I have some serious doubts especially given how things have gone since the World Cup exit.
 
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cgf

FireBednarsSuccessor
Oct 15, 2010
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Daum had some good points in that clip before spiraling into Erdogate...including that bit about the 2016 summit & the panoply of yes men that Jogi has surrounded himself with...but I don't think many will agree with the way Jogi & the DFB have handled this debacle. So railing against their pathetic response shouldn't lead us to put too much stock in any particular firebrand railing against them.

This is still an antiquated coach who hasn't done anything himself in eons, regardless of his fondness for blow. I've seen folks call for him to be given the job off of that clip & that is just as silly as Jogi getting to decide if he should be fired or not.
 

Bure80

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Jun 27, 2011
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How would you rank the first part of Dortmunds transfer window from 1-6. 1 is the best.
The first 11 would be something like this till now.

-----------------------Bürki

Hakimi-------Akanji-------Diallo-------Guerreiro

---------------Delaney-------Dahoud

-----Pulisic-------------Reus------------Sancho

--------------------------Phillip
 

Pavel Buchnevich

Drury and Laviolette Must Go
Dec 8, 2013
57,228
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How would you rank the first part of Dortmunds transfer window from 1-6. 1 is the best.
The first 11 would be something like this till now.

-----------------------Bürki

Hakimi-------Akanji-------Diallo-------Guerreiro

---------------Delaney-------Dahoud

-----Pulisic-------------Reus------------Sancho

--------------------------Phillip

3. About average, maybe just above that, but if they get a good deal on a striker, it could be a 2.

I suspect that 3 of the back 4 will not be the backline to start the season. I think Piszczek and Schmelzer will start at full-back, and I think Toprak starts at CB. Schmelzer isn't any good, but Guerreiro cannot play LB, and it seems like Favre will prefer him in midfield, anyway. Hakimi and Diallo could earn starting places throughout the season, but I think the "veterans" will retain places early on.

Delaney probably starts, if Weigl isn't fit to start the season. But if he is, I think Delaney will be a bench player at the start. I don't think Favre will use Reus in that CAM spot like Stoeger did, but I guess we'll have to see. I think that Reus will play on the left, Goetze in the center, and Sancho starts the season on the bench.
 

Bure80

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Jun 27, 2011
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Sancho on the bench? He was the best Player in the end of the season .
 

Pavel Buchnevich

Drury and Laviolette Must Go
Dec 8, 2013
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Sancho on the bench? He was the best Player in the end of the season .

I agree, but I don't think Reus will be playing as a CAM, and Sancho isn't taking his position, so in that case its either Pulisic or Sancho. Could Reus be used as a CF? I'd like to see it tried out at some point this season, if we don't add a CF.

I think ideally if everyone's on form later this season, the lineup is Buerki, Hakimi, Akanji, Toprak, Diallo, Weigl, Dahoud, Goetze, Pulisic, Sancho, Reus, but we'll see what happens. I think some of the younger kids might struggle to get into the lineup early on.
 

Deficient Mode

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Mar 25, 2011
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Grading depends a lot on your standard. For the most part they let the right older players go for high fees and brought in very good players. I like Hakimi more after digging into him more. We can quibble about overpaying for Delaney or not getting a buy option on Hakimi but it has basically been very good.
 

cgf

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Oct 15, 2010
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3. About average, maybe just above that, but if they get a good deal on a striker, it could be a 2.

I suspect that 3 of the back 4 will not be the backline to start the season. I think Piszczek and Schmelzer will start at full-back, and I think Toprak starts at CB. Schmelzer isn't any good, but Guerreiro cannot play LB, and it seems like Favre will prefer him in midfield, anyway. Hakimi and Diallo could earn starting places throughout the season, but I think the "veterans" will retain places early on.

Delaney probably starts, if Weigl isn't fit to start the season. But if he is, I think Delaney will be a bench player at the start. I don't think Favre will use Reus in that CAM spot like Stoeger did, but I guess we'll have to see. I think that Reus will play on the left, Goetze in the center, and Sancho starts the season on the bench.

Marco did have the best season of his career playing in a free role as Favre’s shadow striker...
 

cgf

FireBednarsSuccessor
Oct 15, 2010
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Grading depends a lot on your standard. For the most part they let the right older players go for high fees and brought in very good players. I like Hakimi more after digging into him more. We can quibble about overpaying for Delaney or not getting a buy option on Hakimi but it has basically been very good.

You guys will love Hakimi before long. Dunno why the Barca fan shat on him in the transfer thread when the move was discussed
 
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