Speculation: Gerard Gallant fired

[Oddbob]

He definitely has a system. @The Zetterberg Era reminds us (and is correct) that he runs a similar system to Cooper.

The problem is, and has been, there has been no successful adaptation to that system to make it work with the roster we ice. Cooper can run that system in Tampa, they have the talent for it. You can't ask Lashoff/Biega/Erne/whoever to pull off the same concepts with similar success. It's been awhile and we haven't seen it.

Good coaches adapt what they want to do with what they have and find a way to make it work. We have seen very little of that from Jeff Blashill.

This is basically my feelings on Blashill. He has a system he wants, but obviously not the talent or depth to make it work, at some point as a good coach you have to adjust and change your system to work with low end talent. I have also heard it said by numerous people on here, that he tells the players do this or do that, and they don't listen or can't do it. To me that is then on the coach, as if the players aren't listening to his instructions, then either they have tuned him out, or they simply can't do it. That puts it on him to make a change then.

 

[Winger98]

You know, I often thought Babcock was overrated as a coach. But I do give him credit for being able to take some teams that had a blueline with guys like Kindl, Colaicovo, Lashoff, Commordore, etc and make it work and keep that playoff streak going. He was able to adapt his system so inferior players could execute it, and I think he actually got some of those teams to overachieve towards the end of the playoff streak to keep that thing going.

I think those teams were actually more in Babcock's wheelhouse than the more talented clubs he's had at times in Detroit and Toronto. It's when Babcock had talent that he had to adjust. In Toronto, I don't think he could do it. In Detroit, I think the structure in place - and specifically Holland and Bowman early on - was able to nudge him in a different direction enough to be as successful as he was.

even with Detroit's media, there were the occasional report slipping out that Holland will have made his way down to practice, pulled Babcock aside, and let him know that the Wings sort of have their way of doing things. And for everyone who thought Holland was out to lunch, I think his allowing Babcock to pull that way of playing more in his direction the last few years he was here was indicative that Holland knew the skill wasn't there to play how they preferred to play.

 

[TheClap]

I love this implication that there's an NHL coach, who has Yzerman as the GM, in an organization like the Red Wings...

Who apparently has no system and is... What, telling his players to perform freestyle?

Like if I get out the whiteboard and start showing some Xs and Os, how will that persuade you if you're starting from a position so absurd it's bordering on conspiracy theory.

You dodge the question, likely because your understanding of the Xs and Os of the Blashill Process is as much (or as little) as the people you aim to mock.

But more importantly, you also misunderstood the point of my question. Am I literally insinuating that Jeff Blashill has no gameplan or scheme? No. That is of course silly.

"Good coaches adapt what they want to do with what they have and find a way to make it work. We have seen very little of that from Jeff Blashill."

You just admitted this was a fair argument.

When a system fails because the players you have are incapable of running the system, it looks like there is no structure, no gameplan. When we also say he isn't getting the most out of the roster this is precisely what we're talking about.

It's the same damn argument that you've already said was fair, just made in hyperbole.

A GOOD coach is capable of adapting to what he has and adjusting his system and gameplan to put his team in a position to succeed.

That is not what we have seen from Jeff Blashill, who is not a good coach at the NHL level.

 

[Winger98]

You dodge the question, but you also misunderstood the point.

"Good coaches adapt what they want to do with what they have and find a way to make it work. We have seen very little of that from Jeff Blashill."

You just said this was a fair argument.

When a system fails because the players you have are incapable of running the system, it looks like there is no system, no gameplan. When we say he isn't getting the most out of the roster this is precisely what we're talking about.

It's the same damn argument.

A GOOD coach is capable of adapting to what he has and adjusting his system and gameplan to put his team in a position to succeed.

That is not what we have seen from Jeff Blashill.

I'm not sure how much this is true, especially as the talent level on a team decreases. I remember Hitchcock when he came into the league with the Stars. I saw him in Columbus. I saw him in St. Louis. You know, his system always looked pretty similar. some years were stronger than others, but some teams were better than others. I remember Quenville when he first started at St. Louis, with these fast, exciting teams and I watch him in Chicago...yeah, they look pretty similar. The DNA there is the same.

The only coach I can think of who routinely did something close to what I think you're alluding to is Bowman, and he was doing it with some crazily talented Wings teams. But even he had a DNA imprint that folks who saw his early Canadian teams seemed to see reflected in those Wings teams.

Could Blashill get more out of this team playing a different system? Yes. Obviously. But he's not going to change systems, not in some large, whole sale way that radically moves from how he sees the game. It's just not something they do. The GM has a coach in place. If they want that coach to succeed, I think it's less about the coach radically changing himself to fit the players and more the GM getting players who are able to execute what the coach wants to do.

My guess is that Blashill has gotten a lot of support from the Wings brass is because they know what system he is going to run and they know they don't have the guys to run it. They know it's not going to work.

 

[Bench]

A GOOD coach is capable of adapting to what he has and adjusting his system and gameplan to put his team in a position to succeed.

Oh. So you want a guy to coach this disaster team into a ice clogging, chip-off-the-glass, allow 40 shots from the perimeter team. Because that's literally all you're going to be able to do to get better results. You'll steal a few 2-1 or 3-2 wins if your goalie can hold up - which is a dubious prospect for the Wings.

Honestly that kind of hockey would drive people insane here because the kids everyone is dying to see play would be stapled to the bench so Darren Helm can keep clogging up the neutral zone and trying to counterpunch an odd-man rush after a shot block.

As for your jab about explaining the Xs and Os, it's true I was mainly a goalie coach (oh shit now everyone knows why I'm hot for drafting goalies), but before that I did play on teams that mostly employed a variation of the strategy above due to our talent deficit. And yeah, if your goalie can hold up, you steal a few games. But it's absolutely not a winning strategy in the long-run. And it's some of the most boring hockey you'll watch. And your skill players basically go numb from having to take zero risks and praying for an opportunity to do anything. Minnesota and Arizona did this shit for years in the NHL with modest teams - it went absolutely nowhere (and I like Dave Tippett, but damn that was some brutal hockey in Arizona). I'm not sure why people would want Blashill to be "good" and "adapt" to that.

What you're seeing from the current Wings is the young players are given an opportunity to make mistakes to make plays. And guess what? Oh boy do they make mistakes trying to make plays.

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

Oh. So you want a guy to coach this disaster team into a ice clogging, chip-off-the-glass, allow 40 shots from the perimeter team. Because that's literally all you're going to be able to do to get better results. You'll steal a few 2-1 or 3-2 wins if your goalie can hold up - which is a dubious prospect for the Wings.

Honestly that kind of hockey would drive people insane here because the kids everyone is dying to see play would be stapled to the bench so Darren Helm can keep clogging up the neutral zone and trying to counterpunch an odd-man rush after a shot block.

As for your jab about explaining the Xs and Os, it's true I was mainly a goalie coach (oh **** now everyone knows why I'm hot for drafting goalies), but before that I did play on teams that mostly employed a variation of the strategy above due to our talent deficit. And yeah, if your goalie can hold up, you steal a few games. But it's absolutely not a winning strategy in the long-run. And it's some of the most boring hockey you'll watch. And your skill players basically go numb from having to take zero risks and praying for an opportunity to do anything. Minnesota and Arizona did this **** for years in the NHL with modest teams - it went absolutely nowhere (and I like Dave Tippett, but damn that was some brutal hockey in Arizona). I'm not sure why people would want Blashill to be "good" and "adapt" to that.

What you're seeing from the current Wings is the young players are given an opportunity to make mistakes to make plays. And guess what? Oh boy do they make mistakes trying to make plays.

Which is what he has been charged with by the organization and why they defend Blashill at every turn.

Listen I get why people don't like it and I will admit as a big believer in him coming up through the ranks it has been tough to watch the stage he got stuck with this team at. I am not sure there was a whole lot anybody could do about this, the system of the league is setup to make this happen eventually. The reality is this is harder than most everyone wants to admit or I guess thinks about from the outside. Lots of smart hockey people go through periods of failure, it happens.

 

[Bench]

My guess is that Blashill has gotten a lot of support from the Wings brass is because they know what system he is going to run and they know they don't have the guys to run it. They know it's not going to work.

@The Zetterberg Era told us before Yzerman was even hired that everyone in that small community really respected Blashill and he'd absolutely get more time if Yzerman came to Detroit.

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

@The Zetterberg Era told us before Yzerman was even hired that everyone in that small community really respected Blashill and he'd absolutely get more time if Yzerman came to Detroit.

I think that was in a PM not necessarily in the open forum. But yeah last August I think to a few of you before he publicly stepped down in Tampa, but that rumor circulated a lot last fall that he would like to keep him in place, I mean I think he was initially also going to let Holland see out his final year so some things did change. Blashill surviving the start last October and being extended actually has more to do with Yzerman than Holland from what I have heard...

A part of that was a preference on sticking with a coach that played systems he preferred for his evaluation. I don't think it was ever anticipated he would make it to when we are good again, but that he would remain for a bit because they like his details and how he deals with youth.

Holland's press conference in Edmonton kind of touched on that when he explained hiring Tippett and touched on some of what he thought went wrong with Blash but it was glossed over by most.

Blashill is still pretty universally respected in NHL circles from what I have heard. We will see, I don't think it is coming together here obviously, I really do hope his next stop is kinder to him. I think he is a bright guy, I think Holland is an incredibly bright guy. You cannot always win in this sport, it isn't easy and we are paying a price for all those years of glory. A part of the process, I look forward to us improving and ascending back up, I think Stevie will be successful but we have an uncertain timeline, hopefully we get a little luck and a few guys outkick their development curves. I don't get a lot out of the name calling and anger, these jobs are a lot harder than most seem to think is what I have come to the conclusion of over the years.

 

[Frk It]

Oh. So you want a guy to coach this disaster team into a ice clogging, chip-off-the-glass, allow 40 shots from the perimeter team. Because that's literally all you're going to be able to do to get better results. You'll steal a few 2-1 or 3-2 wins if your goalie can hold up - which is a dubious prospect for the Wings.

Honestly that kind of hockey would drive people insane here because the kids everyone is dying to see play would be stapled to the bench so Darren Helm can keep clogging up the neutral zone and trying to counterpunch an odd-man rush after a shot block.

As for your jab about explaining the Xs and Os, it's true I was mainly a goalie coach (oh **** now everyone knows why I'm hot for drafting goalies), but before that I did play on teams that mostly employed a variation of the strategy above due to our talent deficit. And yeah, if your goalie can hold up, you steal a few games. But it's absolutely not a winning strategy in the long-run. And it's some of the most boring hockey you'll watch. And your skill players basically go numb from having to take zero risks and praying for an opportunity to do anything. Minnesota and Arizona did this **** for years in the NHL with modest teams - it went absolutely nowhere (and I like Dave Tippett, but damn that was some brutal hockey in Arizona). I'm not sure why people would want Blashill to be "good" and "adapt" to that.

What you're seeing from the current Wings is the young players are given an opportunity to make mistakes to make plays. And guess what? Oh boy do they make mistakes trying to make plays.

A good Bench post with some expletives.

I’m so here for it.

(you’re still not talking me into Askarov top 5)

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

A good Bench post with some expletives.

I’m so here for it.

(you’re still not talking me into Askarov top 5)

Generational talent... I am not sure we are going to. But I am not going to be in the hot take part of that draft day thread that is embarrassing to read when the dude is winning Vezina trophies. That is for sure.

I am leaning more away from passing, we have so many needs. But I think he is a superstar, still not sure we can really sink that asset at this point, but I firmly believe in the Askarov is Carey Price stuff, dude is a stud.

 

[Frk It]

Generational talent... I am not sure we are going to. But I am not going to be in the hot take part of that draft day thread that is embarrassing to read when the dude is winning Vezina trophies. That is for sure.

I am leaning more away from passing, we have so many needs. But I think he is a superstar, still not sure we can really sink that asset at this point, but I firmly believe in the Askarov is Carey Price stuff, dude is a stud.

After dominating a historically good USA team last year I expected way more at the WJC.

I ain’t never trusted no goalie....

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

After dominating a historically good USA team last year I expected way more at the WJC.

I ain’t never trusted no goalie....

I have probably seen him play 25 or 30 times, the WJC doesn't change my opinion on what he is.

It wasn't a great tournament, but every goalie has those stretches. I think he is an exceptional talent, whatever team nets him has their answer in goal for a decade. He can be a foundation piece for you. I know you don't need a goalie like that to win, but I am not against having an elite prime goaltender. He can erase a lot of mistakes. I would say if he is our pick we are going to be going through a deeper rebuild.

In terms of this thread is that something Gallant really wants??? I mean if Yzerman is planning on this for a couple more years in terms of how bad we are right now to get high-end draft picks Askarov also then becomes a more reasonable gamble because he probably doesn't come over right away. Still what coach wants to have this team if we don't improve a little is a part of what I keep asking myself? Only so many jobs in the NHL, but yeah it is tough having everyone think you are an idiot you know kind of like how Blash is treated by many in our market when there isn't much you can do to change your teams circumstances.

 

[Frk It]

I have probably seen him play 25 or 30 times, the WJC doesn't change my opinion on what he is.

It wasn't a great tournament, but every goalie has those stretches. I think he is an exceptional talent, whatever team nets him has their answer in goal for a decade.

I don’t know man... I feel like without that dominant performance against USA we look at this different.

Is he better than Spencer Knight enough to the point where he should be drafted 10 slots higher? I sure as hell don’t think so

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

I don’t know man... I feel like without that dominant performance against USA we look at this different.

Is he better than Spencer Knight enough to the point where he should be drafted 10 slots higher? I sure as hell don’t think so

My bigger problem is I cannot really see passing on Lafreniere, Byfield, Raymond or Drysdale for him. I think Stutzle is in that picture too, but I don't know. If you really believe he is going to be the best guy in the league at some point at the goalie position and I tend to think yes that him and Knight are pretty safe bets to be the next Vasy and Gibson types that you might pull the trigger. A lot of it depends on what their internal time frame really is.

 

[MBH]

I'm not sure how much this is true, especially as the talent level on a team decreases. I remember Hitchcock when he came into the league with the Stars. I saw him in Columbus. I saw him in St. Louis. You know, his system always looked pretty similar. some years were stronger than others, but some teams were better than others. I remember Quenville when he first started at St. Louis, with these fast, exciting teams and I watch him in Chicago...yeah, they look pretty similar. The DNA there is the same.

The only coach I can think of who routinely did something close to what I think you're alluding to is Bowman, and he was doing it with some crazily talented Wings teams. But even he had a DNA imprint that folks who saw his early Canadian teams seemed to see reflected in those Wings teams.

Could Blashill get more out of this team playing a different system? Yes. Obviously. But he's not going to change systems, not in some large, whole sale way that radically moves from how he sees the game. It's just not something they do. The GM has a coach in place. If they want that coach to succeed, I think it's less about the coach radically changing himself to fit the players and more the GM getting players who are able to execute what the coach wants to do.

My guess is that Blashill has gotten a lot of support from the Wings brass is because they know what system he is going to run and they know they don't have the guys to run it. They know it's not going to work.

He's got a job because of Holland's hubris and because Yzerman just doesn't give a f*** about this season.

Look at the goaltending situation. Our only 1/2 decent goalie is out. We've got the worst goalies in the league in Howard and Pickard.
Does Yzerman care? Nope.
He's just sitting back and going defensive on this fire. He's gonna let it burn down.

 

[MBH]

Best goalies in the NHL today (ranked by save% with 20 games played) and where they were drafted.
Jarry. 44th.
Bishop. 85th.
Keumper. 160th.
Rask. 21st.
Hellebucyk. 130th.
Lehner. 46th
Halak. 271st.
Griess. 94th.
Ranta. Undrafted.
Varlamov. 23rd.

vs.

Top 10 forwards in points.
McDavid. 1st
Draisaitl. 4th
Pastrnak. 25th.
Mackinnon. 1st.
Panarin. Unsigned.
Marchand. 71st.
Eichel. 2nd.
Huberdeau. 3rd.
Kane. 1st.
Matthews. 1st.

This tells me that goalie scouting is very difficult.

No f***ing way do I draft a goalie at 4th overall and sit through this shithole season for such a risky pick.

 

[Winger98]

He's got a job because of Holland's hubris and because Yzerman just doesn't give a **** about this season.

Look at the goaltending situation. Our only 1/2 decent goalie is out. We've got the worst goalies in the league in Howard and Pickard.
Does Yzerman care? Nope.
He's just sitting back and going defensive on this fire. He's gonna let it burn down.

There has to be a line between wanting to fix something and not wanting to pay the price for fixing it. Yzerman could be looking to bring in another goalie, but getting Mike Comrie v.2 isn't going to help, and we don't know the price being asked for a guy like Georgiev.

It might be something where it's not worth the assets to try to tamp down the fire.

 

[Run the Jewels]

Blashill took a similar team to that to the playoffs his first year...

Lucked into it is more like it, a bad Ottawa team beat the Bs and knocked them out of a playoff spot on the final day of the regular season. That's the only reason Blash got his one playoff appearance. It's been all downhill since then.

2015: 93 points
2016: 79 points
2017: 73 points
2018: 74 points
2019: 47 points?

I get you like the guy and he has aspirations to play like Cooper but man...just look at that record. It's not even NHL quality at this point. It is historically bad. If you truly believe Holland and co did a good job drafting why on earth are we one of the worst teams in the history of the league?

 

[Hen Kolland]

Lucked into it is more like it, a bad Ottawa team beat the Bs and knocked them out of a playoff spot on the final day of the regular season. That's the only reason Blash got his one playoff appearance. It's been all downhill since then.

2015: 93 points
2016: 79 points
2017: 73 points
2018: 74 points
2019: 47 points?

I get you like the guy and he has aspirations to play like Cooper but man...just look at that record. It's not even NHL quality at this point. It is historically bad. If you truly believe Holland and co did a good job drafting why on earth are we one of the worst teams in the history of the league?

You’d be ignoring the fact that the relevant picks in that would be coming into prominent roles were either A) non-impact draft position, B) traded as prospects before making it, and C) were picked by other teams because management had traded the picks before using them.

The Red Wings between the Zetterberg/Kronwall era and the start of this new era, beginning around Mantha/Larkin, were one of, if not the worst drafting franchises in the sport.

His record reflects the decay of the organization. Period. Whether he’s a good or bad coach, the record of the team is still following the trend of the organization. From being at the highest of the highs > to the point with aging veterans and nobody to pass on the torch to > to the point of no high end talent and a bunch of kids > to this season with a GM change and a philosophical shift to stop trying to put bandaids and on the NHL team.

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

Lucked into it is more like it, a bad Ottawa team beat the Bs and knocked them out of a playoff spot on the final day of the regular season. That's the only reason Blash got his one playoff appearance. It's been all downhill since then.

2015: 93 points
2016: 79 points
2017: 73 points
2018: 74 points
2019: 47 points?

I get you like the guy and he has aspirations to play like Cooper but man...just look at that record. It's not even NHL quality at this point. It is historically bad. If you truly believe Holland and co did a good job drafting why on earth are we one of the worst teams in the history of the league?

Look at the decline of talent on the roster. It's not even NHL quality at this point. it is historically bad. And a big part is that even "good" draftees don't necessarily all hit the ground running at the same time.

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

He's got a job because of Holland's hubris and because Yzerman just doesn't give a **** about this season.

Look at the goaltending situation. Our only 1/2 decent goalie is out. We've got the worst goalies in the league in Howard and Pickard.
Does Yzerman care? Nope.
He's just sitting back and going defensive on this fire. He's gonna let it burn down.

What would you have Yzerman do? Like what would show you that he "gave a **** about this season" even after he stressed patience? Should Yzerman be hopping mad up and down that Bernier who was playing well got hurt and throw assets equivalent to some dinner napkins at a 50 meter wide hole on the Titanic?

 

[Squirrel in the Hole]

What would you have Yzerman do? Like what would show you that he "gave a **** about this season" even after he stressed patience? Should Yzerman be hopping mad up and down that Bernier who was playing well got hurt and throw assets equivalent to some dinner napkins at a 50 meter wide hole on the Titanic?

Larkin and Bertuzzi to the Habs for Price.

That fixes your hole

 

[Run the Jewels]

You’d be ignoring the fact that the relevant picks in that would be coming into prominent roles were either A) non-impact draft position, B) traded as prospects before making it, and C) were picked by other teams because management had traded the picks before using them.

The Red Wings between the Zetterberg/Kronwall era and the start of this new era, beginning around Mantha/Larkin, were one of, if not the worst drafting franchises in the sport.

His record reflects the decay of the organization. Period. Whether he’s a good or bad coach, the record of the team is still following the trend of the organization. From being at the highest of the highs > to the point with aging veterans and nobody to pass on the torch to > to the point of no high end talent and a bunch of kids > to this season with a GM change and a philosophical shift to stop trying to put bandaids and on the NHL team.

Holland had not traded draft picks or roster players. He was fully committed to building through the draft. His approach clearly didn't work, if it was successful we would look more like Boston than a first year expansion team loaded with over the hill players. I get that you want to have it both ways: Holland is an amazing GM and Blashill is doing the very best under conditions that are beyond both of their control. The fact is we looked very much like a poorly run organization over the past 5+ years.

I understand you don't view it this way at all. I'm just happy Chris Ilitch and Steve Yzerman understand how poorly the franchise was run and have taken steps to move beyond being the worst first year expansion franchise in NHL history.

 

[Ricelund]

This isn't a good look for Jeff:

Cizikas sat Tuesday too, but there was enough stern talk in the morning meetings to get the entire group back on track. Having the 12-win Wings across the ice sure helped.

“Honestly, I don’t think I’ve played an NHL game like that before,” one Islander said. “There was no emotion at all from them.”

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

Holland had not traded draft picks or roster players. He was fully committed to building through the draft. His approach clearly didn't work, if it was successful we would look more like Boston than a first year expansion team loaded with over the hill players. I get that you want to have it both ways: Holland is an amazing GM and Blashill is doing the very best under conditions that are beyond both of their control. The fact is we looked very much like a poorly run organization over the past 5+ years.

I understand you don't view it this way at all. I'm just happy Chris Ilitch and Steve Yzerman understand how poorly the franchise was run and have taken steps to move beyond being the worst first year expansion franchise in NHL history.

I understand that it is much easier to argue with these broad proclamations and hard stances... but anyone with eyes will tell you that Holland was not an AMAZING GM for the past five years. He's also not an abject failure. They made wrong calls on players and were too patient/forgiving to mediocrity. But for the Wings to have bucked the trend and been back like the Bruins or whatever... that would have required Ken Holland to be a literal genius. They lost some of the best players in the league and were largely restricted based on certain existing contracts from making WILD moves to address issues.

With Blash? I do think he's doing the best under conditions outside of his control. He's literally been given a **** expansion roster level team. For the Wings now to not be this abysmal train wreck would require him to be the greatest coach in history. They have approximately two viable NHL defensemen right now. about 60% of their forwards are a good line or two higher than they should be. Their goalies aren't stopping the puck with any regularity. But somehow you expect Jeff Blashill to give you good results?

The org has been run poorly as noticed by the vast amount of injuries piled up with Yzerman's jump to bringing in Barwis to fix up the 20 year old strength and conditioning.

Holland was merely okay and not a plus GM in his last five years. Blashill is a good coach with good players and a bad coach with bad players. Again, not abject failures, just reflective of the assets they have.

What the Wings needed to do that would have helped out greatly was look at the trade market and instead of hoping and praying that you get Jay Bouwmeester for a weak package, deal a couple 2nds and get Nick Leddy or Jonny Boychuk who are both viable top 4D over drafting a couple guys who you don't even tender. That you can trade future picks for slightly above average NHL talent and you're not screwing your rebuild into the ground. It is fine to build through the draft, but you can't willfully ignore mid-range improvements at mid-range costs. If the Wings did something like that and they get a D that isn't the worst in the history of the league... you see better results from the young forwards because the D isn't so overmatched.