OT: General UFC/MMA/Boxing discussion IX

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Pompeius Magnus

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I've never been all that impressed with the way Tristar develops their guys tbh. OAM strikes me as a guy who's hit something of a plateau right now. He really needs to go back and build around his strengths. Even with that, 155 is a real hard division and there can only be so many top guys. Look at that top 10 and tell me who he can realistically beat right now.
 
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MD thaivuN

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I've never been all that impressed with the way Tristar develops their guys tbh. OAM strikes me as a guy who's hit something of a plateau right now. He really needs to go back and build around his strengths. Even with that, 155 is a real hard division and there can only be so many top guys. Look at that top 10 and tell me who he can realistically beat right now.

Tristar lives and dies by the Jack-of-all-trade mantra. It's massively difficult to produce a "great at everything" fighter and the path to it is just not reproduce-able. You're only going to find this kind of fighter once every generation.

To be an elite mma fighter, you need to be great at at least one or two things. By failing to become great at everything, you also end up becoming great at nothing.
 

LyricalLyricist

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I've never been all that impressed with the way Tristar develops their guys tbh. OAM strikes me as a guy who's hit something of a plateau right now. He really needs to go back and build around his strengths. Even with that, 155 is a real hard division and there can only be so many top guys. Look at that top 10 and tell me who he can realistically beat right now.

To be fair who is elite besides Conor from SBG?

Who is a big name in 10th polanet JJ besides Tony Ferguson?

etc...

It seems a lot of camps are mostly mediocre in terms of having a prized fighter except organizations built on country of origin or the big ones like Jackson Wink and AKA.
 

Mike Mike Caron

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Tristar lives and dies by the Jack-of-all-trade mantra. It's massively difficult to produce a "great at everything" fighter and the path to it is just not reproduce-able. You're only going to find this kind of fighter once every generation.

To be an elite mma fighter, you need to be great at at least one or two things. By failing to become great at everything, you also end up becoming great at nothing.

I could make a case for every camp to be guilty of this. Guys like GSP, Belfort and RMcD are so complete that they give this image of jack-of-all-trade. Plenty of fighters have come of tri-star with fighters who have clearly a predominant strenght, like Alex Garcia and Nordine Taleb.
 

MD thaivuN

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I could make a case for every camp to be guilty of this. Guys like GSP, Belfort and RMcD are so complete that they give this image of jack-of-all-trade. Plenty of fighters have come of tri-star with fighters who have clearly a predominant strenght, like Alex Garcia and Nordine Taleb.

every gym tends to have a "template" of what kind of fighters it wants to produce.

Kings wants to turn BJJ specialists into killer strikers
AKA produces pressure wrestlers
SBG wants turn everyone into McGregor (99% of the time, that stuff doesn't work)
Jackson-Wink wants to produce weird*ss rangy kickboxers.

Outside for the weird obssession to become leg lock specialists, Tristar lacks an identity that goes beyond be well-rounded. Taleb IMO has turned into a pretty decent jack-of-all-trade fighter (i'd even say he's a poor man Rory Mac. funny enough both their last loss came from ill-advised leg lock attempts) and Garcia doesn't seem to fit well with the camp and the results seem to show.

It's a question of what kinds of fighters fit in what kind of camp. I'm not sure Tristar is a good fit for many type of fighters.
 
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LyricalLyricist

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So UFC 233 gets cancelled, can't find a main event. They've dropped flyweight soon enough and they're acting like they don't need a 165? At this point they might even need a 195 and possibly a 225 ish division.
 

MD thaivuN

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So UFC 233 gets cancelled, can't find a main event. They've dropped flyweight soon enough and they're acting like they don't need a 165? At this point they might even need a 195 and possibly a 225 ish division.

With what talent? lol

205 is on life-support relying on mid-level middleweights to fill their top 10 at this point.
 

BehindTheTimes

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So UFC 233 gets cancelled, can't find a main event. They've dropped flyweight soon enough and they're acting like they don't need a 165? At this point they might even need a 195 and possibly a 225 ish division.
Not near enough talent to support 3 more divisions. The talent pool is not getting much better or bigger either imo. UFC is going to be dead in 5-10 years without a doubt. Too many bums and not enough elite skills.
 

Pompeius Magnus

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I guess one option could be to drop everything bellow 155 and have that be the floor division. Most of the elite below 155 fighters are actually way closer to that weight and it would push some of the guys that are struggling to make lightweight up to 170 . That in turn would push some of the borderline 185 guys up to their actual weight and so forth, kinda like a trickle-down effect, except up in this case. Any solution that could keep fighters from cutting 20+ pounds and fighting way lighter than their real size would help the competition level in my book. The 205 division they could downright eliminate too honestly, almost none of the top guys that are close to that natural weight actually fight there anyway. Go back to the Pride days and have way fewer divisions, everything over 205 be heavyweights, etc.
 
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Kriss E

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I guess one option could be to drop everything bellow 155 and have that be the floor division. Most of the elite below 155 fighters are actually way closer to that weight and it would push some of the guys that are struggling to make lightweight up to 170 . That in turn would push some of the borderline 185 guys up to their actual weight and so forth, kinda like a trickle-down effect, except up in this case. Any solution that could keep fighters from cutting 20+ pounds and fighting way lighter than their real size would help the competition level in my book. The 205 division they could downright eliminate too honestly, almost none of the top guys that are close to that natural weight actually fight there anyway. Go back to the Pride days and have way fewer divisions, everything over 205 be heavyweights, etc.

UFC has been about quantity over quality for a very long time. Not sure they'll be able to go back.
What they would need to do is replace Dana White. The man has done enough. He made UFC and MMA into a legit commercial sport. One of the most practiced sport world wide.
Hate or Love him...the man will go down as arguably the most important and influencing person in this sport.
That said, it's time to move on. They need someone different, with a fresh and different view, new ideas, to help further the sport even more.
 

LyricalLyricist

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With what talent? lol

205 is on life-support relying on mid-level middleweights to fill their top 10 at this point.

Not near enough talent to support 3 more divisions. The talent pool is not getting much better or bigger either imo. UFC is going to be dead in 5-10 years without a doubt. Too many bums and not enough elite skills.

Perhaps I should've said eventually. I think 165-175 would be fine but later on more should be considered. I don't see HW division being easily divided given most are unathletic and a guy like Stipe, Cormier and others would easily meet the lower end of the division(like a 220) if need be and they're top of 265. So it would do more harm than good. Eventually though, consideration has to be made in adding other divisions. Losing 125 and gaining 165 puts it back at square one, except 165 would garner more audience.

I guess one option could be to drop everything bellow 155 and have that be the floor division. Most of the elite below 155 fighters are actually way closer to that weight and it would push some of the guys that are struggling to make lightweight up to 170 . That in turn would push some of the borderline 185 guys up to their actual weight and so forth, kinda like a trickle-down effect, except up in this case. Any solution that could keep fighters from cutting 20+ pounds and fighting way lighter than their real size would help the competition level in my book. The 205 division they could downright eliminate too honestly, almost none of the top guys that are close to that natural weight actually fight there anyway. Go back to the Pride days and have way fewer divisions, everything over 205 be heavyweights, etc.

I think 135 can sell. I like Dillshaw. 145 has good talent too. There is little need to cut them.

UFC has been about quantity over quality for a very long time. Not sure they'll be able to go back.
What they would need to do is replace Dana White. The man has done enough. He made UFC and MMA into a legit commercial sport. One of the most practiced sport world wide.
Hate or Love him...the man will go down as arguably the most important and influencing person in this sport.
That said, it's time to move on. They need someone different, with a fresh and different view, new ideas, to help further the sport even more.

You act like DW is the only guy in the UFC office. He's the top guy and a figurehead and a brand but he's not alone. If they want fresh ideas they don't need to let go of Dana white. He's part of the brand IMO.
 

Pompeius Magnus

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I think 135 can sell. I like Dillshaw. 145 has good talent too. There is little need to cut them.
I didn't mean cut the guys themselves, just the weight classes. Guys like Dillashaw, Garbrandt and Holloway could all fight at 155 if it became the floor weight. It's actually probably a good deal under their walk around weights.
(For the record, I like the lower weight classes quite a bit personally)
 
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Kriss E

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You act like DW is the only guy in the UFC office. He's the top guy and a figurehead and a brand but he's not alone. If they want fresh ideas they don't need to let go of Dana white. He's part of the brand IMO.
DW has been a major player, I don't see how they get someone in with fresh and new ideas, with a vision of how to move this sport forward, with Dana still around.
Not sure how that works.
 

Kriss E

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Probably wouldn't work when you consider DFW's massive ego
Yes, that was essentially my point.
The guy made TV reality show out of him fighting Tito Ortiz...this guy isn't going to quietly step aside and let someone else run this business.
 

BehindTheTimes

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UFC has been about quantity over quality for a very long time. Not sure they'll be able to go back.
What they would need to do is replace Dana White. The man has done enough. He made UFC and MMA into a legit commercial sport. One of the most practiced sport world wide.
Hate or Love him...the man will go down as arguably the most important and influencing person in this sport.
That said, it's time to move on. They need someone different, with a fresh and different view, new ideas, to help further the sport even more.
Can't stand Dana, but I dont think this does anything to take the UFC to the next level. Athletes are choosing different sports where they can make infinitely more money. MMA will never truly be mainstream IMO.
 

Kriss E

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Can't stand Dana, but I dont think this does anything to take the UFC to the next level. Athletes are choosing different sports where they can make infinitely more money. MMA will never truly be mainstream IMO.
Dude, MMA is mainstream. It's everywhere. MMA training has exponentially grown over the years.
The UFC could give massive salaries to their guys, they just don't do it.
Something else that's crazy? The CEO can decide who fights who....how f***ing insane is this?? lol
 

BehindTheTimes

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Dude, MMA is mainstream. It's everywhere. MMA training has exponentially grown over the years.
The UFC could give massive salaries to their guys, they just don't do it.
Something else that's crazy? The CEO can decide who fights who....how ****ing insane is this?? lol
Still very much a niche sport. Not drawing nearly the same level of athletes as other major sports. Its not even close IMO. The sport has a better chance of disappearing entirely IMO.
 

Kriss E

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Still very much a niche sport. Not drawing nearly the same level of athletes as other major sports. Its not even close IMO. The sport has a better chance of disappearing entirely IMO.
Possibly, it's a fairly new sport so that's only normal. I think they need to cut back on events, there are too many and it's diluting each one. I argued about this years ago. It's why I lost some interest. When UFC purchased pretty much all its competitors and owned all the talent, they had a chance to make insanely stacked cards. Instead they spread the talent out, created new events, and it became a bit dull.
In March 2019, they have 5 events planned! Insane. There really is no need for that much UFC.
 
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LyricalLyricist

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Yes, that was essentially my point.
The guy made TV reality show out of him fighting Tito Ortiz...this guy isn't going to quietly step aside and let someone else run this business.

You know, Vince McMahon used to fight in the WWE. Yes, it's scripted and he put himself in there, in the spotlight and in the end his rivalry with Stone Cold is one of the most iconic in wrestling.

At times DW can play a great heel as well, intentionally or otherwise. The way he critiques Woodley only gave Woodley more support and fan fare.

Dana White has influence and that influence cannot be replaced as easily as you think.
 

LyricalLyricist

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Dude, MMA is mainstream. It's everywhere. MMA training has exponentially grown over the years.
The UFC could give massive salaries to their guys, they just don't do it.
Something else that's crazy? The CEO can decide who fights who....how ****ing insane is this?? lol

But why would the UFC give that right up? They fix their own matches and as a result have full authority to build matches and hype.

Would a new CEO give that right up?
 

Kriss E

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You know, Vince McMahon used to fight in the WWE. Yes, it's scripted and he put himself in there, in the spotlight and in the end his rivalry with Stone Cold is one of the most iconic in wrestling.

At times DW can play a great heel as well, intentionally or otherwise. The way he critiques Woodley only gave Woodley more support and fan fare.

Dana White has influence and that influence cannot be replaced as easily as you think.
You know WWE has nothing to do with UFC. It's a TV show. They can do whatever they want, it's all fake and scripted.

I never said DW would be easily replaced. I said in order for the UFC to move on to next level, they need to change DW. Never said that would be easy.
 

Kriss E

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But why would the UFC give that right up? They fix their own matches and as a result have full authority to build matches and hype.

Would a new CEO give that right up?
Because it's a massive conflict of interest. But I dont think they'll want to give that up.
 
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