Prospect Info: General Discussion of Prospects

[sabremike]

MOD NOTE: This is a general discussion thread for all prospects. Any prospect from any team, drafted or undrafted may be discussed here. Analysis of scouting, thoughts on drafting and rankings can be discussed here.

If you want to discuss or post information about a particular prospect, post it in the thread named for that prospect. They're easy to find using search or sorting by thread tag.

The goal is to try to keep the information in the prospect threads as much about the prospect as possible. If you want to make a case that a different player should have been drafted instead of of the player that was drafted, make your case here. It does not belong in that prospect information thread.
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Didn’t want to jump the Ryan Johnson thread for this and wasn’t sure where else to post it. A good amount of people like Nils (including me) with our late 1st this year.. and this is just plain nasty.

But we needed to draft a defensive prospect instead because it's not like we already have like 37 of them, and really who needs high end forwards?

Click to read more...

 

[Rasmus CacOlainen]

But we needed to draft a defensive prospect instead because it's not like we already have like 37 of them, and really who needs high end forwards?

You can also trade in the NHL, just an FYI.

 

[sabremike]

You can also trade in the NHL, just an FYI.

Please explain to me how this excuses the decision to take yet another defenseman when your organization is overloaded at that position, superior forward prospects (who are both far more valuable and our biggest organizational need) were available and defensive prospects right now appear to have the lowest value of just about any assett in the league (notice the endless complete trash offers for Risto, or how we got an excellent defenseman for a forward prospect who was considered all but a surefire bust who wasn't going to make it)?

 

[Zman5778]

Please explain to me how this excuses the decision to take yet another defenseman when your organization is overloaded at that position, superior forward prospects (who are both far more valuable and our biggest organizational need) were available and defensive prospects right now appear to have the lowest value of just about any assett in the league (notice the endless complete trash offers for Risto, or how we got an excellent defenseman for a forward prospect who was considered all but a surefire bust who wasn't going to make it)?

The explanation is simple: they valued Ryan Johnson over any forward still on the board at this point. People can criticize the decision all they want.......but that's what it boils down to.

 

[sabremike]

The explanation is simple: they valued Ryan Johnson over any forward still on the board at this point. People can criticize the decision all they want.......but that's what it boils down to.

And given both organizational need and relative value of prospects by position the fact that they did is the troubling thing.

 

[Sabresfansince1980]

And given both organizational need and relative value of prospects by position the fact that they did is the troubling thing.

I can't believe you think the Sabres did something wrong.

 

[Sabreality]

And given both organizational need and relative value of prospects by position the fact that they did is the troubling thing.

troubling? and if Johnson becomes the best of the bunch? and better than the other F picks? your crystal ball is no better than anybody elses and this just reeks of your anti-Botts agenda. Getting bent out of shape over what looks like a GOOD pick currently is more troubling.

 

[sabremike]

I can't believe you think the Sabres did something wrong.

Given that we have been the Cleveland Browns of hockey for the past decade that's unfortunately usually the correct thing to think.

 

[Der Jaeger]

And given both organizational need and relative value of prospects by position the fact that they did is the troubling thing.

Weird. This take isn't how organizations think.

Take any draft list you'd like. I'll take Hockey Prospect because I think Mark Edwards does a great job with his staff, and he's connected with NHL scouts. HP had Johnson rated as the 20th overall prospect with a B grade. The only player the Sabres passed on to take Johnson was Bobby Brink, who was rated 15th overall with an A grade. The closest non-defenseman rated to Johnson was Nils Hoglander, rated 23rd with a B grade. Both Brink and Hoglander graded the same or better than Johnson in hockey sense, compete level, and skill.

Ratings, out of 10
Brink: 8, 8, 8
Hoglander: 6, 7, 8
Johnson: 7, 7, 6

The only area Johnson was rated better than both forwards was skating, where Brink and Hoglander rated 5s each and NHL scouts mentioned that both were poor skaters for the NHL. Johnson rated an 8 in skating.

So it's fairly easy to see why Botterill went with Johnson. He values skating much higher, given that the Pens teams he was part of were some of the best skating teams of the past few years. I don't think passing on Brink or Hoglander was a big deal.

Besides, hockey prospects don't contribute immediately. A lot can change in the 2-3 years before Johnson makes it to the NHL.

 

[Zman5778]

Besides, hockey prospects don't contribute immediately. A lot can change in the 2-3 years before Johnson makes it to the NHL.

This is the biggest point to me. People can kvetch and moan all they want, but no one will truly know what we have in Johnson versus what others got in forwards taken around Johnson for 3-4 years.

 

[Chainshot]

I still like RJ a lot. Smooth, defense-first with a lot of time to unpack the offensive side of his game? Sign me up.

The lack of scoring talent in the stable at forward is a separate issue.

 

[jc17]

Wasnt the fan of the pick, but this is another example of people using a highlight to define a player. Its meaningless

 

[sabremike]

Wasnt the fan of the pick, but this is another example of people using a highlight to define a player. Its meaningless

But I would like to note he wasn't the guy I wanted, the guy I wanted is currently playing about 50 miles north up the QEW.

 

[Reddawg]

he certainly looked good in the summer, but right now, I see another Pysyk. Good skating, calm with the puck, good transition, but just another guy. 5-6-7 dman.

Not what you spend your 31st pick on, especially with a collection of forward talent with size and scoring ability right there. Hoglander, Kaliyev, Lavoie (my pick there), the list goes on.

I can't disagree...Kaliyev really should have been the pick unless he made the DND list for some unknown reason. A big high-scoring RW prospect...yeah, we definitely couldn't make use of one of those.

 

[joshjull]

The only branch of our scouting department I have any faith in at all is the one that covers the Serengeti.

We’ll played sir

 

[Chainshot]

he certainly looked good in the summer, but right now, I see another Pysyk. Good skating, calm with the puck, good transition, but just another guy. 5-6-7 dman.

Not what you spend your 31st pick on, especially with a collection of forward talent with size and scoring ability right there. Hoglander, Kaliyev, Lavoie (my pick there), the list goes on.

I can understand your point of view. They've made their second pick in all three of the Botterill drafts relatively "safe" with Davidsson, Samuelsson, and Johnson (thankfully, only one "s") when there remains organizational need for scoring. But I see more than Pysyk - like, Pysyk ultra, the guy who he could have been if he'd hit the higher end of his potential, instead of the reliable-ish depth RHD Pysyk has become.

 

[Der Jaeger]

But I would like to note he wasn't the guy I wanted, the guy I wanted is currently playing about 50 miles north up the QEW.

Kaliyev?

 

[sabremike]

Kaliyev?

Yes.

 

[jc17]

who is currently on a 1 goal per game pace

 

[sabremike]

who is currently on a 1 goal per game pace

Just remember: the reason teams passed on him is because he came off as "weird" in interviews, which was clearly way more important than the whole "he's really good at playing hockey" thing.

 

[Jim Bob]

Just remember: the reason teams passed on him is because he came off as "weird" in interviews, which was clearly way more important than the whole "he's really good at playing hockey" thing.

I hope he doesn't like going to art museums...

Seriously though, the biggest knock on him was that a lack of production last year had people questioning his ceiling at the NHL level when it comes to putting up points.

Basically, a lot of people wondered if he was worth a late 1st because of that perceived limited offensive upside to his game.

 

[Chainshot]

I can't disagree...Kaliyev really should have been the pick unless he made the DND list for some unknown reason. A big high-scoring RW prospect...yeah, we definitely couldn't make use of one of those.

There was a lot of swirl that Kaliyev was on the do-not-draft list for many.

 

[sabremike]

I hope he doesn't like going to art museums...

Seriously though, the biggest knock on him was that a lack of production last year had people questioning his ceiling at the NHL level when it comes to putting up points.

Basically, a lot of people wondered if he was worth a late 1st because of that perceived limited offensive upside to his game.

How is 51 goals and 102 points in 68 games for a not so good team considered a lack of production?

 

[jc17]

Part of the reason Kaliyev would have been nice is because we already got cozens. If it was our only 1st rounder, I'd be more keen to play it safe, but wouldnt mind going with a boom or bust guy when you have some security

 

[Sabresfansince1980]

We just traded a winger who had "Bust" written all over him for a defensive prospect who had already proven he was an NHL level player and who is actually really good. Also look at the pitiful offers we are getting for Risto and the very low cost to pick up Montour.

To justify your point that Botterill is clueless and drafted the wrong guy/position and that wingers have more trade value than D-men, you use as an example a trade in which Botterill got rid of a semi-bust winger for a solid D-man with top-four potential, one for one...

...great argument...