General COVID-19 talk, NHL remains suspended MOD Warning post #1

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crassbonanza

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We will not know the exact number until after this pandemic when researches sift through data. Anyways, with some states manipulating data and this:



I would go with the conservative route and say 1% death rate and 4% hospitalization. This being the case I would advise everyone to be vigilant and protect themselves. I think people should be more conservative and not take on this extra gamble in their life.


OK, so you don't believe any actual numbers presented by the CDC and pretty much every other country, but are just going to make some up that suit your argument? People definitely should be cautious, but for most people under the age of 50 years old this is not a very dangerous disease.
 
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crassbonanza

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Sweden stayed open during the coronavirus pandemic: Is it a model for the future?

According to the European Center for Disease Prevention and Control, Sweden has an estimated 328.6 cases and 39.3 deaths per 100,000 of the population. Norway has 156.4 cases and just 4.4 deaths respectively. Denmark and Finland have similarly low figures. Those same statistics still indicate that Sweden has a lower number of deaths per capita than Italy, Spain and the U.K., all countries that have enacted stringent lockdowns.

This is a “stark difference” to the rest of Scandinavia, according to Stefan Hanson, a Swedish infectious disease expert and signatory to a letter from top scientists criticizing the health authorities' response.

"When we compare the other Nordic countries in terms of mortality, it is clear that we are having roughly 500 deaths per week, and in Norway they had seven deaths last week,” Hanson told ABC News. “If we see the mortality per million, we are five times higher than all the other Nordic countries, taken the number of inhabitants into consideration."

“There is no doubt that this strategy is causing a lot of unnecessary deaths,” he added.


Man, your linked article is a perfect example. They reference that 7.3% number without clarifying that the data is from Late April and represents the status from early April. It's misleading at best.
 
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yankeeking

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What’s funny is most people are doing now what they crucified the administration for doing ....nothing to see here, it’s going away, completely over blown , it’s getting better, . Honestly I hope they are right because I want to have that feeling from those two June nights one more time, but on the bright side I am in the age group that gets to shop before anyone else and now can have a side business of selling toilet paper and soft soap that are gone when the rest of you wake up and I am putting that money into rat trap makers stock
 

Jason Squirties

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Raccoon Jesus

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Well, that's misleading and inaccurate on at least a first glance.

The great majority of those are flyover country and the states that never had a breakout in the first place.

For those that aren't, for example, Ohio--Ohio had, from December until May 3rd, 1039 deaths. Since May 4th--25 days--they've had 1058 deaths. And retail there has only been open since May 12th and their stay at home orders end today, a critical bit of context completely ignored by that tweet. Same with Missouri, deaths have doubled over May. GA, almost doubled over May. And that was just the first three I glanced at. Come on.

The irony is that the US curve hasn't actually dropped because the virus is still growing in places that aren't NYC, I'm not sure what this rush to proclaim freedom and victory is when the publicly-available stats are showing otherwise and that's without even counting the issues in testing/data and ignoring the places that are having controversies over cooked-book testing data.

I'm all for positive news but that's just inaccurate freedom porn for the "help I'm repressed because local businesses are asking me to wear a mask" crowd. EXTREMELY generous interpretation of when states "eased restrictions" and data.
 
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crassbonanza

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Well, that's misleading and inaccurate on at least a first glance.

The quote is not misleading in any way though. Of the 22 states that eased restrictions prior to May 4th, none showed a significant spike in deaths, hospitalization or percent positive.

The great majority of those are flyover country and the states that never had a breakout in the first place.

Why would them being "flyover states" matter for this analysis? I'm not sure how that relates at all.

For those that aren't, for example, Ohio--Ohio had, from December until May 3rd, 1039 deaths. Since May 4th--25 days--they've had 1058 deaths. And retail there has only been open since May 12th and their stay at home orders end today, a critical bit of context completely ignored by that tweet. Same with Missouri, deaths have doubled over May. GA, almost doubled over May. And that was just the first three I glanced at. Come on.

Have you had a chance to look at their 7 day rolling average? For those states, the rolling average for those figures have been relatively flat.

The irony is that the US curve hasn't actually dropped because the virus is still growing in places that aren't NYC, I'm not sure what this rush to proclaim freedom and victory is when the publicly-available stats are showing otherwise and that's without even counting the issues in testing/data and ignoring the places that are having controversies over cooked-book testing data.

The US curve hasn't flattened because we are testing much more. Since you seem to not trust any of the data from the US, here is an article from Denmark discussing the lack of a spike after reopening schools: Reopening schools in Denmark did not worsen outbreak, data shows

I'm all for positive news but that's just inaccurate freedom porn for the "help I'm repressed because local businesses are asking me to wear a mask" crowd. EXTREMELY generous interpretation of when states "eased restrictions" and data.

It just isn't inaccurate fear mongering. Nate Silver has been fun to read throughout this whole thing, he had a tweet calling out NBC today for noting a spike in deaths today:
 
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Raccoon Jesus

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The quote is not misleading in any way though. Of the 22 states that eased restrictions prior to May 4th, none showed a significant spike in deaths, hospitalization or percent positive.

It's an 'accurate' quote but it's definitely misleading given "eased restrictions" meant damn near nothing in some cases. Using the Ohio example, they literally released the stay-at-home order today. Retail didn't open until May 12th. "eased restrictions" is an incredibly broad, meaningless spectrum that at best is meaningless and at worst is carefully crafted to have people read it as "we're open." and it calls into question all the data as they're all measuring different dates.



Why would them being "flyover states" matter for this analysis? I'm not sure how that relates at all.


Why did they look at those states in particular? There's a bias there.


Have you had a chance to look at their 7 day rolling average? For those states, the rolling average for those figures have been relatively flat.

See above re: measuring different things. Their 7 day rolling average means nothing if they're still doing the same things they were doing a month ago.



The US curve hasn't flattened because we are testing much more. Since you seem to not trust any of the data from the US, here is an article from Denmark discussing the lack of a spike after reopening schools: Reopening schools in Denmark did not worsen outbreak, data shows

The US curve hasn't flattened because while NYC goes down everyone else goes up. Re Denmark (and they also mention Finland), that's the European equivalent of next to no breakout because they handled it well. So I'm glad they're finding the same results as US states that hardly had anything happening, but I doubt it would be the same in say, the UK or Los Angeles County.

It just isn't inaccurate fear mongering. Nate Silver has been fun to read throughout this whole thing, he had a tweet calling out NBC today for noting a spike in deaths today:



I agree. That is equally irresponsible. And it works in reverse too, when people were going "see no deaths in X county this weekend."


I DO agree that some trend we're seeing in areas that aren't in heavy-outbreak mode aren't seeing the needle budge seemingly no matter what action is taken and that tracks well with what many of us seem to agree on--proceed with cautionary procedures and isolate the most at-risk. But I'm just as over the freedom porn "see this isn't dangerous at all" tweets as others are of the fearmongering because people use bullshit like the above as an excuse to not wear masks and whine about repression when entering a grocery store.

I'm more interested in areas that had major outbreaks and their journeys through these items than I am in fluff articles/tweets touting areas that didn't have breakouts as 'better' than everyone else and that their continued ability to ignore safety procedures is somehow confirmation that NYC and California et. al. have been doing something 'wrong' by restricting activity. It's apples to oranges being presented as apples to better apples. And it's getting really f***ing old hearing George Smith from Podunk Iowa anecdotally report that there's no Covid-19 in his town so NYC needs to stop being tyrannical.
 
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crassbonanza

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It's an 'accurate' quote but it's definitely misleading given "eased restrictions" meant damn near nothing in some cases. Using the Ohio example, they literally released the stay-at-home order today. Retail didn't open until May 12th. "eased restrictions" is an incredibly broad, meaningless spectrum that at best is meaningless and at worst is carefully crafted to have people read it as "we're open." and it calls into question all the data as they're all measuring different dates.

The assumption is that any sort of easing would lead to an increase in deaths, hospitalizations and % positive. That is why those restrictions were put forth in the first place. So, despite them being different levels of easing, you would assume they would all see an increase based on the concept behind the lockdown.

Why did they look at those states in particular? There's a bias there.

They looked at those states in particular because they were ones who began easing prior to May 4th. There was no bias, they did not exclude states as far as I know. Also, this is ABC, I don't think they have a bias in any way as far as I know.

See above re: measuring different things. Their 7 day rolling average means nothing if they're still doing the same things they were doing a month ago.

So, are you arguing that the states listed above have not did not perform an easing? Ohio was your example, but it looks like they opened construction, manufacturing, distribution and office work on May 4th: Florida, Ohio, Indiana among states lifting lockdown restrictions Monday

I DO agree that some trend we're seeing in areas that aren't in heavy-outbreak mode aren't seeing the needle budge seemingly no matter what action is taken and that tracks well with what many of us seem to agree on--proceed with cautionary procedures and isolate the most at-risk. But I'm just as over the freedom porn "see this isn't dangerous at all" tweets as others are of the fearmongering because people use bullshit like the above as an excuse to not wear masks and whine about repression when entering a grocery store.

I really do think we agree on most things regarding this, but I think it is important to look at the actual data. I don't care if it is used by people who want to complain about masks, I want to discuss the data. I think the over the top rhetoric and hiding of the facts to coax people into the lockdown was wrong, even if it came from a good place. You have situations like this: https://www.thelocal.dk/20200529/le...marks-pm-steam-rollered-her-own-health-agency where the head of the Danish Health Ministry was told to forgo his own numbers in order to adopt an "extreme precautionary principle".

They wanted the disease to look worse in order to get the public behind the measures, so they purposefully misled.
 
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Raccoon Jesus

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The assumption is that any sort of easing would lead to an increase in deaths, hospitalizations and % positive. That is why those restrictions were put forth in the first place. So, despite them being different levels of easing, you would assume they would all see an increase based on the concept behind the lockdown.

Then I would suggest thats a faulty assumption given some of those states were hardly reporting 100 cases and single digit deaths, so opening selective businesses--those that already require extreme sanitation procedures and protections, like construction--really SHOULDN'T see anything. Yet many of them still saw deaths double in the last month.


They looked at those states in particular because they were ones who began easing prior to May 4th. There was no bias, they did not exclude states as far as I know. Also, this is ABC, I don't think they have a bias in any way as far as I know.

Maybe 'bias' isn't the right word but there's certainly an agenda-driven selection at play. At best, it's just reporting with no context.

When each state's stay-at-home order lifts

It's a faulty premise because states that were ready to open even selectively that early didn't have the same COVID issues as others did.


So, are you arguing that the states listed above have not did not perform an easing? Ohio was your example, but it looks like they opened construction, manufacturing, distribution and office work on May 4th: Florida, Ohio, Indiana among states lifting lockdown restrictions Monday

I'm pointing out that 'easing' means different things to different states, but yes, at least a couple of those states (you can see in the link above) never had restrictions to begin with as well. And thus I think that lumping them all together doesn't tell us anything meaningful.


I really do think we agree on most things regarding this, but I think it is important to look at the actual data. I don't care if it is used by people who want to complain about masks, I want to discuss the data. I think the over the top rhetoric and hiding of the facts to coax people into the lockdown was wrong, even if it came from a good place. You have situations like this: https://www.thelocal.dk/20200529/le...marks-pm-steam-rollered-her-own-health-agency where the head of the Danish Health Minister was told to forgo his own numbers in order to adopt an "extreme precautionary principle".

They wanted the disease to look worse in order to get the public behind the measures, so they purposefully misled.

And this is basically an example of the opposite. It's not better. It's still shitty.
 
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crassbonanza

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Then I would suggest thats a faulty assumption given some of those states were hardly reporting 100 cases and single digit deaths, so opening selective businesses--those that already require extreme sanitation procedures and protections, like construction--really SHOULDN'T see anything. Yet many of them still saw deaths double in the last month.

Well, if they shouldn't see any increase, then why were they closed in the first place? This is a part of the discussion to be had. Also, rather than talking about doubling, it is easier to look at trends. The 7 day rolling average is a very useful tool because it accounts for delays in reporting. Here is a good example from Nate Silver regarding Wisconsin from that earlier tweet I showed you:

Maybe 'bias' isn't the right word but there's certainly an agenda-driven selection at play. At best, it's just reporting with no context.

When each state's stay-at-home order lifts

It's a faulty premise because states that were ready to open even selectively that early didn't have the same COVID issues as others did.

It is showing that easing lockdowns did not increase those 3 figures noticeably in the states that moved forward with easing. Again, the assumption this entire time has been that there will be a spike following lockdown easing and we did not see that. There could be other factors at play, but these 22 states all had the same result.

I'm pointing out that 'easing' means different things to different states, but yes, at least a couple of those states (you can see in the link above) never had restrictions to begin with as well. And I think that lumping them all together doesn't tell us anything meaningful.

Easing does mean different things, but it is still easing. Why does that not provide us anything meaningful? We see that different states with different levels of easing all did not show a significant spike. It is not a case of a certain percentage of them, where outliers were thrown in or excluded to prove a point. Every single one of the states followed the same trend.

And this is basically an example of the opposite. It's not better. It's still shitty.

This is absolutely not the opposite. Did you read the link?

At the same time, emails leaked to the Ekstrabladet newspaper showed how on March 20, new calculations showing that the reproduction number in Denmark was 2.1, considerably lower than the 2.6 previously estimated, were held back because they were "not desired politically"."

"In the email chain about the suppressed briefing note, Kåre Molbæk, Denmark's top epidemiologist, and Søren Brostrøm, head of the Danish Health Authority, both said they wanted to release the new number.
But Brostrøm told Molbæk that this would not be possible until the next week, when Prime Minister Mette Frederiksen announced the lockdown extension.
"I'm completely in agreement..." he said. "But this is not desired politically, and my understanding is that it can be annnounced on Monday at the earliest."
Ekstra Bladet pointed out that Frederiksen had used, and exaggerated, the 2.6 figure in a speech the previous week.
"If one person infects three others and they each infect three, then nine people are infected. And if the nine again infect three, then we are at nearly 30 infected," she said.
Using the 2.1 figure, the real final number would have been just 9.2 infected, a dramatic difference.

They were actively suppressing information to manufacture consent.

I just don't see why this tweet is shitty, much less as bad as the link I provided.
 

Raccoon Jesus

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Well, if they shouldn't see any increase, then why were they closed in the first place? This is a part of the discussion to be had. Also, rather than talking about doubling, it is easier to look at trends. The 7 day rolling average is a very useful tool because it accounts for delays in reporting. Here is a good example from Nate Silver regarding Wisconsin from that earlier tweet I showed you:


That's going to depend on the state. Some didn't at all. Places like Utah, South Dakota, never had lockdown orders because they never even experienced 3 deaths a day--so there's nothing to be gleaned from status quo when they don't get worse. Places like Ohio are on the other end of the spectrum. But the 7-day rolling average for a lot of those places is flat and/or slightly trending up rather than going down and that's problematic because it hasn't been quite two weeks for a lot of them.



It is showing that easing lockdowns did not increase those 3 figures noticeably in the states that moved forward with easing. Again, the assumption this entire time has been that there will be a spike following lockdown easing and we did not see that. There could be other factors at play, but these 22 states all had the same result.


I don't agree that's been the assumption in all states and that's why I referenced flyover country. Social distancing is built in in a lot of those places. But that's why even Nate Silver points out that it's not great that they aren't seeing a decline. Also, you're much less likely to see a 'spike' when your state has minimal cases. Again, my beef with all this is what the tweet is either intentionally or unintentionally implying--that locking down was a waste of time based on what we're seeing in the above listed places when it's apples-to-oranges.


Easing does mean different things, but it is still easing. Why does that not provide us anything meaningful? We see that different states with different levels of easing all did not show a significant spike. It is not a case of a certain percentage of them, where outliers were thrown in or excluded to prove a point. Every single one of the states followed the same trend.

It's too broad, and it's a selection of states who 1. never had major issues in the first place, or 2. misrepresent their data, or 3. never had a lockdown or 4. had a lockdown and haven't 'released' hardly at all. What the heck is that sample supposed to tell us? And lumping together states that never had lockdown orders at all to states who have locked down and only released people back to work only in restrictive environments in the last little bit and saying the outcomes are the same is a massive correlation-doesn't-equal-causation issue. And I emphasize it's a 'selection,' didn't seem weird that they skipped over Alabama, who eased on April 30th, just as an example?

Alabama virus cases surge to new high as state reopens


This is absolutely not the opposite. Did you read the link?

At the same time, emails leaked to the Ekstrabladet newspaper showed how on March 20, new calculations showing that the reproduction number in Denmark was 2.1, considerably lower than the 2.6 previously estimated, were held back because they were "not desired politically"."

"In the email chain about the suppressed briefing note, Kåre Molbæk, Denmark's top epidemiologist, and Søren Brostrøm, head of the Danish Health Authority, both said they wanted to release the new number.
But Brostrøm told Molbæk that this would not be possible until the next week, when Prime Minister Mette Frederiksen announced the lockdown extension.
"I'm completely in agreement..." he said. "But this is not desired politically, and my understanding is that it can be annnounced on Monday at the earliest."
Ekstra Bladet pointed out that Frederiksen had used, and exaggerated, the 2.6 figure in a speech the previous week.
"If one person infects three others and they each infect three, then nine people are infected. And if the nine again infect three, then we are at nearly 30 infected," she said.
Using the 2.1 figure, the real final number would have been just 9.2 infected, a dramatic difference.

They were actively suppressing information to manufacture consent.

I just don't see why this tweet is shitty, much less as bad as the link I provided.


Wait, you're saying it's bad to suppress info and manipulate data to facilitate public policy?

Florida: Woman who designed Florida's COVID-19 dashboard has been removed from her position

"Rebekah Jones said in an email to CBS12 News that her removal was "not voluntary" and that she was removed from her position because she was ordered to censor some data, but refused to "manually change data to drum up support for the plan to reopen."

Nebraska: Nebraska health officials stop reporting COVID-19 confirmations at meatpacking plants as case counts continue to rise

"As of the first week of May, public health officials reported 96 infections at the Tyson plant in Madison, 237 at the JBS plant in Grand Island, and 123 arising from the Smithfield plant in Crete.
Then, as the numbers continued to rise, the state stopped releasing them.
Gov. Pete Ricketts announced at a news conference last week that state health officials would no longer share how many workers have been infected at each plant. The plants weren't releasing the numbers either, and employees and their families were left in the dark, The Post reported."

Virginia: How Virginia Juked Its COVID-19 Data

"The state is reporting viral tests and antibody tests in the same figure, even though the two types of test answer different questions about the pandemic and reveal different types of information. By combining these two types of test, the state is able to portray itself as having a more robust infrastructure for tracking and containing the coronavirus than it actually does. It can represent gains in testing that do not exist in reality, says Ashish Jha, the K. T. Li Professor of Global Health at Harvard."

Georgia:

So yes, there is a data reporting and misrepresentation war going on and it's defnitely happening on both ends. For all the complaints about California's partisan 'bad projections,' there's not nearly enough criticism of others states' bad reporting, and much of it appears to be unfortunate bullshit political tribalism. If you don't see that, I'm not going to be able to help you see it.
 

crassbonanza

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That's going to depend on the state. Some didn't at all. Places like Utah, South Dakota, never had lockdown orders because they never even experienced 3 deaths a day--so there's nothing to be gleaned from status quo when they don't get worse. Places like Ohio are on the other end of the spectrum. But the 7-day rolling average for a lot of those places is flat and/or slightly trending up rather than going down and that's problematic because it hasn't been quite two weeks for a lot of them.

The rolling average is flat. That is the key. We are talking about spikes after easing and them not appearing. Going down is a different story.

I don't agree that's been the assumption in all states and that's why I referenced flyover country. Social distancing is built in in a lot of those places. But that's why even Nate Silver points out that it's not great that they aren't seeing a decline. Also, you're much less likely to see a 'spike' when your state has minimal cases. Again, my beef with all this is what the tweet is either intentionally or unintentionally implying--that locking down was a waste of time based on what we're seeing in the above listed places when it's apples-to-oranges.

Why would you not see a relative spike if the cases are low? This is relative to what it was before, if it spreads as rapidlky as once thought, then we should assume a spike even if there are relatively low numbers.

Alabama virus cases surge to new high as state reopens

This is a great example of ignoring the percent positive, it is not accounting for the increase in testing. So, this factor would not change what is being reported in the tweet.

Florida: Woman who designed Florida's COVID-19 dashboard has been removed from her position

"Rebekah Jones said in an email to CBS12 News that her removal was "not voluntary" and that she was removed from her position because she was ordered to censor some data, but refused to "manually change data to drum up support for the plan to reopen."

Well, if you cared about accurate reporting you would be in favor of Rebekah Jones being fired. She was actively changing the results in a non scientific manner. She is not an epidemiologist and was hired to run the online dashboard only. That is not a great example to use.

Virginia: How Virginia Juked Its COVID-19 Data

"The state is reporting viral tests and antibody tests in the same figure, even though the two types of test answer different questions about the pandemic and reveal different types of information. By combining these two types of test, the state is able to portray itself as having a more robust infrastructure for tracking and containing the coronavirus than it actually does. It can represent gains in testing that do not exist in reality, says Ashish Jha, the K. T. Li Professor of Global Health at Harvard."

It's funny you mention this after mentioning Rebekah Jones being fired, she was fired for combining the antibody tests with the active viral ones to make the cases look worse.

So yes, there is a data reporting and misrepresentation war going on and it's defnitely happening on both ends. For all the complaints about California's partisan 'bad projections,' there's not nearly enough criticism of others states' bad reporting, and much of it appears to be unfortunate bullshit political tribalism.

Projections are different than data. This is data. This is not misrepresentation.

If you don't see that, I'm not going to be able to help you see it.

You are participating in that by providing what you think are "gotcha" moments to show that what Denmark did was not bad and that we should not trust that tweet. I hate that this became political because people are refusing to evolve their positions because their team already picked a side.
 

Raccoon Jesus

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The rolling average is flat. That is the key. We are talking about spikes after easing and them not appearing. Going down is a different story.

There can't be a spike after easing if you never restricted anything in the first place. And a flattened curve in a place like Ohio that just ended stay at home literally today only tells me that selectively opening with large restrictions doesn't result in a surge.



Why would you not see a relative spike if the cases are low? This is relative to what it was before, if it spreads as rapidlky as once thought, then we should assume a spike even if there are relatively low numbers.

Depends. Would you call going from 3 deaths a day to 3.6 deaths a day a 'spike?' that's what happened in Nebraska, who never restricted, never eased. Again, to me, this isn't useful information, that's all.



This is a great example of ignoring the percent positive, it is not accounting for the increase in testing. So, this factor would not change what is being reported in the tweet.

Well, if you cared about accurate reporting you would be in favor of Rebekah Jones being fired. She was actively changing the results in a non scientific manner. She is not an epidemiologist and was hired to run the online dashboard only. That is not a great example to use.

It's funny you mention this after mentioning Rebekah Jones being fired, she was fired for combining the antibody tests with the active viral ones to make the cases look worse.

Projections are different than data. This is data. This is not misrepresentation.

You are participating in that by providing what you think are "gotcha" moments to show that what Denmark did was not bad and that we should not trust that tweet. I hate that this became political because people are refusing to evolve their positions because their team already picked a side.


No, they're not 'gotcha' moments, they're illustrative of people who are so dug into their views that they refuse to question data that doesn't align with their viewpoints, even when the data itself is questionable. They're examples of states internal issues and power seesaws. Unfortunately, by assuming I'm trying to show Denmark's actions as 'bad,' you're doing exactly that yourself. Edit: I see, you were also assuming I was cheering Jones on instead of using her as an example of borked data.

Skipping over Alabama--who fits their shitty data set criteria but not their outcomes--is dishonest.

Florida's and Virginia's internal issues /seesaw reporting partisan power battles are resulting in inaccurate data.

Nebraska just all-out refusing to release data is appalling.

Georgia intentionally misrepresenting their trajectory in dishonest.

I think Denmark is exactly the kind of example that SHOULD open and that the manipulation of info is a dirty trick. It doesn't appear you're willing to question the premises of a random tweet in a similar manner.

And again my beef isn't even with you directly, it's with that garbage selective tweet and the havoc it can cause. You're at least willing to discuss the merit of that data. Most are just going to run with the inference and post it on their facebook to own their family and tell them why they're stupid for being cautious.
 
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Raccoon Jesus

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3 deaths in OC today and 1 was SNF

Optimistically--Riverside, San Bernardino, San Diego counties showing 2% growth rates on cases and deaths when just two weeks ago all were at 3-5%. Even LA County is showing 3% growth rate on cases and 2% on deaths.

OC is in a little bit of a different pickle, though it may be a reporting thing since they're now doing recoveries--3% growth on cases, 5% on deaths.

Global COVID-19 Tracker & Interactive Charts | Real Time Updates & Digestable Information for Everyone | 1Point3Acres

As whole, it's not a trend yet, but California is starting to tick down!
 

crassbonanza

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There can't be a spike after easing if you never restricted anything in the first place. And a flattened curve in a place like Ohio that just ended stay at home literally today only tells me that selectively opening with large restrictions doesn't result in a surge.

OK, let's go back to the beginning of the tweet. There were 22 states who eased restrictions prior to May 4th, when ABC analyzed them they found that none of them showed no spikes in hospitalization rates, deaths or percent positive. There is nothing wrong with that statement unless you have proof to counter it. If that statement is false then I will be right behind you.

Depends. Would you call going from 3 deaths a day to 3.6 deaths a day a 'spike?' that's what happened in Nebraska, who never restricted, never eased. Again, to me, this isn't useful information, that's all.

If they saw a 15% increase in 7 day averaged deaths following a change in policy it might be worth looking into, but it doesn't seem like there was a policy change according to you.

No, they're not 'gotcha' moments, they're illustrative of people who are so dug into their views that they refuse to question data that doesn't align with their viewpoints, even when the data itself is questionable. They're examples of states Unfortunately, by assuming I'm trying to show Denmark's actions as 'bad,' you're doing exactly that yourself.

There was an email leak showing that Denmark purposefully held back information and lied when extending the lockdown. None of your links are anywhere near that. There is discussions about combining antibodies with active virals in two of your examples, another where a governor stopped giving reports on how many covid patients are at different plants(not stopping counting, just not reporting specific plant numbers) and a misplaced date. I wish neither of those 3 things happened(Rebekah Jones should have been fired) and you throwing that out to prove that this tweet is wrong is basically partisanship. You picked a side and now you are going to throw out these instances to show that this tweet should be discounted.

Skipping over Alabama--who fits their shitty data set criteria but not their outcomes--is dishonest.

Alabama total cases wouldn't even play into this data set, there is no discussion of total cases, because that information without the number tested is essentially meaningless. If you think it is a shitty data set, what would you rather they look at?

I think Denmark is exactly the kind of example that SHOULD open and that the manipulation of info is a dirty trick. It doesn't appear you're willing to question the premises of a random tweet in a similar manner.

Why would I want to question the premise of this data? It lines up fairly well with what we are seeing around the world. The predicted spikes are not being seen in places that opened up. I don't know why you are so unwilling to believe that tweet. Do you think there are states/countries seeing massive spikes in those metrics after reopening recently?

This could just because it is an upper respiratory illness and it goes away in summer, but this tweet is not out of line with what we are seeing elsewhere.
 
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Raccoon Jesus

Todd McLellan is an inside agent
Oct 30, 2008
61,725
61,555
I.E.
OK, let's go back to the beginning of the tweet. There were 22 states who eased restrictions prior to May 4th, when ABC analyzed them they found that none of them showed no spikes in hospitalization rates, deaths or percent positive. There is nothing wrong with that statement unless you have proof to counter it. If that statement is false then I will be right behind you.

Alabama conspicuously isn't on that list despite altogether removing stay at home order April 30th. Why not? Also not on the list--Alaska, West Virginia, New Hampshire.

There are more than 22 states that should be on that list and about 25% of them never had restrictions to ease in the first place. In short, there's nothing cohesive about that data set, other than an arbitrary May 4th date before which some states did things and some states didn't.


If they saw a 15% increase in 7 day averaged deaths following a change in policy it might be worth looking into, but it doesn't seem like there was a policy change according to you.

So you're agreeing it's not useful information.


There was an email leak showing that Denmark purposefully held back information and lied when extending the lockdown. None of your links are anywhere near that. There is discussions about combining antibodies with active virals in two of your examples, another where a governor stopped giving reports on how many covid patients are at different plants(not stopping counting, just not reporting specific plant numbers) and a misplaced date. I wish neither of those 3 things happened(Rebekah Jones should have been fired) and you throwing that out to prove that this tweet is wrong is basically partisanship. You picked a side and now you are going to throw out these instances to show that this tweet should be discounted.

Alabama total cases wouldn't even play into this data set, there is no discussion of total cases, because that information without the number tested is essentially meaningless. If you think it is a shitty data set, what would you rather they look at?

I can't show you the other side without showing you the other side. Call me partisan if it makes you feel better, I guess, but you're the one running circles to justify bad info. If you really don't see Nebraska intentionally withholding data as problematic, I guess we're done here, no? "we're no longer reporting these because reasons" is okay?


Why would I want to question the premise of this data? It lines up fairly well with what we are seeing around the world. The predicted spikes are not being seen in places that opened up. I don't know why you are so unwilling to believe that tweet. Do you think there are states/countries seeing massive spikes in those metrics after reopening recently?

This could just because it is an upper respiratory illness and it goes away in summer, but this tweet is not out of line with what we are seeing elsewhere.


I literally said I'm on board with the idea that worldwide, in places that are ready to open up safely, this seems to be a thing. It's not actively getting worse.

But yes, there HAVE been spikes in places reopening, like South Korea, China (for whatever truth value anyone wants to assign there), and Germany. And now, also, NorCal. California county first to roll back reopening orders

I'm not unwilling to believe it, I just see conflicting info, and I have to question a source when they deliberate leave some states out of an already questionable data set. I'm not dug in on either side of this other than the side that wants responsible reporting and I see a general lack fo that.

Like you point out though one of the positives appears to be heat and fresh air, lucky for us here.
 
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crassbonanza

Fire Luc
Sep 28, 2017
3,260
3,134
Call me partisan if it makes you feel better, I guess, but you're the one running circles to justify bad info.

Come on dude. I don't even want to argue anymore about this, but that is a ridiculous accusation. You are the one running around trying to find some way to prove a statistic wrong. It mentioned the states used. It mentioned the metrics they looked at. You are the one attempting to prove it wrong by throwing out completely unrelated articles. You are the one showing unrelated information from unrelated states to try to prove the tweet wrong. You are the one accusing everyone else of being partisan, I simply threw that back at you.

If you really don't see Nebraska intentionally withholding data as problematic

What value do you gain from knowing how many total covid cases are at each individual meat packing plant? How is that pertinent information? They are still being tallied in the state totals, but specific information is not begin given out.


You did find a spike, but that spike was 4 cases. Just to be clear, they had 4 cases. Not 4 hospitalizations, not 4 deaths, but 4 cases. However, there is a county that did see a spike, still the vast majority of countries and states are not seeing significant spikes in deaths or hospitalizations after opening up.

This all started because I thought your attack on the tweet was completely unfounded and I still believe that. It is from ABC, so it is not some partisan organization. They did not lie about any data. They are not presenting any information that goes against what most other places are finding. A report isn't shitty because you dislike the information.
 

Raccoon Jesus

Todd McLellan is an inside agent
Oct 30, 2008
61,725
61,555
I.E.
Come on dude. I don't even want to argue anymore about this, but that is a ridiculous accusation. You are the one running around trying to find some way to prove a statistic wrong. It mentioned the states used. It mentioned the metrics they looked at. You are the one attempting to prove it wrong by throwing out completely unrelated articles. You are the one showing unrelated information from unrelated states to try to prove the tweet wrong. You are the one accusing everyone else of being partisan, I simply threw that back at you.


You literally said me trying to prove that tweet wrong is partisanship.

I'm simply saying it's a sloppy as shit tweet. Their data sample includes states that never locked down, the date chosen is arbitrary, and a million reasons I've listed above. And the funny thing is I've already said I agree with you re: the conclusion that areas that haven't had a mess of things going wrong seem to be able to open up safely. But that tweet does a terrible job of communicating it and opens itself up to criticism for myriad reasons and is stuff like that is why people are having a hard time with a cohesive response.


What value do you gain from knowing how many total covid cases are at each individual meat packing plant? How is that pertinent information? They are still being tallied in the state totals, but specific information is not begin given out.


I mean this started about transparency and data accuracy but again you keep finding ways to defend the obfuscation of data. I'm not okay with it. Maybe you are. No judgment here.



You did find a spike, but that spike was 4 cases. Just to be clear, they had 4 cases. Not 4 hospitalizations, not 4 deaths, but 4 cases. However, there is a county that did see a spike, still the vast majority of countries and states are not seeing significant spikes in deaths or hospitalizations after opening up.

This all started because I thought your attack on the tweet was completely unfounded and I still believe that. It is from ABC, so it is not some partisan organization. They did not lie about any data. They are not presenting any information that goes against what most other places are finding. A report isn't shitty because you dislike the information.


And that's because most of the places that had significant coronavirus issues have not yet fully opened up. Washington, California, New York have yet to come. Remember that one of my criticisms of this is the thesis is "see all these places that never had issues still don't have issues, open er up." But the places that DID have significant issues, mostly urban centers, even those that are handling it well, are seeing flare ups.

No, a report is shitty because it's hastily put together with no meaningful correlation between the responses of the states selected. I don't learn anything from "places that never shut down because they didn't have coronavirus still don't have coronavirus." I don't get anything new from "places who shut down but opened manufacturing/construction jobs three weeks ago aren't seeing cases go up." I DO get SOMETHING new from "this place opened some public spaces at 25% capacity three weeks ago and isn't seeing a spike," but how is that at all related to the above places? Sloppy. And you see how much digging I had to do to get some legitimate positive news in there?

It doesn't have to be a partisan source to be poorly written. It's not news to me that places with minimal coronavirus impact continue to have minimal coronavirus impact and it certainly isn't responsible to present it as if their lack of responses were impactful on that result.

Edit: and again, this isn't personal/@ you. You're responsible and you're going to use that data responsibly. Look at the responses to that tweet to see why my criticism exists, and my criticism of 'freedom porn' is just the opposite of the criticism of the 'fear porn' (misusing the huge scary numbers to force quarantine).
 
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