General Coronavirus (COVID-19) Discussion (Non-Hockey Related) - Part 11

[Letsgobolts21]

I'm glad you think our strategy succeeded.

 

[bleedblue1223]

Stop this nonsense.
The main reason for shut downs was to stop the spread of the virus and save the lives of human beings. Nobody had to die.

Death was an inevitability.

 

[bleedblue1223]

Mid March - 15 days to slow the spread introduced on March 16th


March 16:
South Korea: 8,236 cases + 75 deaths
USA: 4,604 Cases + 95 deaths

Currently:
South Korea: 11,541 Cases + 272 deaths
USA: 1,881,205 cases + 108,059 deaths


IT WAS TOO LATE TO DO ANYTHING! THE ONLY THING WE COULD DO WAS TRY TO NOT OVERWHELM OUR HEALTHCARE SYSTEM AND WE SUCCEEDED!

There are many reasons why South Korea was more successfully, and many of them are simply out of our hands. They are essentially an island.

Stop Comparing U.S. To South Korea On Coronavirus
Guest column: Stop comparing US to South Korea

 

[Claypool]

On that note- it's important we distinguish between a protest against a deeply rooted issue that has plagued America throughout her history and a protest against governments trying to protect their people from an ongoing pandemic.

So as long as people are protesting (rioting) against racial inequality, and not first amendment rights, it's ok to spread the virus?

 

[izlez]

That was the main reason for the shutdowns because exponential growth unabated would overwhelm healthcare.

Stop this nonsense.
The main reason for shut downs was to stop the spread of the virus and save the lives of human beings.

In fact, slowing the spread--the main goal was to save lives.

Glad we can agree

 

[bleedblue1223]

While I understand the protests in the States, why has the rest of the world just ignored COVID to protest something that is happening in another country across the world? All that rhetoric about wanting to open the economy will kill someone's grandma can just be thrown out the window.

 

[Lt Dan]

While I understand the protests in the States, why has the rest of the world just ignored COVID to protest something that is happening in another country across the world? All that rhetoric about wanting to open the economy will kill someone's grandma can just be thrown out the window.

yep

 

[izlez]

There are many reasons why South Korea was more successfully, and many of them are simply out of our hands. They are essentially an island.

Stop Comparing U.S. To South Korea On Coronavirus
Guest column: Stop comparing US to South Korea

An article that repeatedly claims the population density of our most populated areas vs their entire country is a factor (their country is more densely populated)

An article about population density when NYC and Seoul have the same population density

An article that claims they had more masks, as our government refused to make masks

An article that claims their small country was easier to control with one clear message, as federal government refused to provide one clear message

 

[bleedblue1223]

An article that repeatedly claims the population density of our most populated areas vs their entire country is a factor (their country is more densely populated)

An article about population density when NYC and Seoul have the same population density

An article that claims they had more masks, as our government refused to make masks

An article that claims their small country was easier to control with one clear message, as federal government refused to provide one clear message

They have way more control over their population and can have a more wide spread surveillance state. They are essentially an island that can restrict travel with ease. Their culture, along with other Asian cultures already embrace wearing masks and taking more personal precautions. Yes, we could've done better, but there are many factors outside of government control that they had going for them.

 

[Dubi Doo]

So as long as people are protesting (rioting) against racial inequality, and not first amendment rights, it's ok to spread the virus?

First off- I don't support the rioting. There's a difference between the peaceful protests and the rioting, so let's make that distinction now. If I failed to make that distinction in my post, that's my bad.

Secondly- Any protest that densely packs people is risky, and if there are no masks involved then it's flat out dumb, which I stated. I just believe the protest toward racial inequality is more important to our future rather than one that seems to be grasping at straws, though both may spread the virus. What a time to be alive.

 

[Claypool]

I just believe the protest toward racial inequality is more important to our future rather than one that seems to be grasping at straws

To me this isn't an "either or" issue. Everyone has the right to protest peacefully, no matter the issue. You have no right to tell someone their cause isn't worth protesting but yours is. Also, none of the lockdown protests led to mass chaos and looting.

I just don't see how government ordering citizens to stay home, forcibly closing businesses, and ultimately creating a global recession is not something worth protesting. It's like everyone forgot we were putting people in jail for giving haircuts. Seems pretty dumb given what has happened over the past week, don't you think?

 

[HoweHullOrr]

An article that repeatedly claims the population density of our most populated areas vs their entire country is a factor (their country is more densely populated)

An article about population density when NYC and Seoul have the same population density

An article that claims they had more masks, as our government refused to make masks

An article that claims their small country was easier to control with one clear message, as federal government refused to provide one clear message

Its (I & I) a news source that is worth researching (i.e., wiki). I see many references to their writers/editorial board working for, or appearing on Fox, Bill O'Reilly, Glen Beck, etc.

 

[izlez]

They have way more control over their population and can have a more wide spread surveillance state. They are essentially an island that can restrict travel with ease. Their culture, along with other Asian cultures already embrace wearing masks and taking more personal precautions. Yes, we could've done better, but there are many factors outside of government control that they had going for them.

These paragraphs are literally back to back:

Now let’s compare the size of these two countries. South Korea is a country of 38,000 square miles. America on the other hand occupies 4 million square miles. It must be less challenging for the government of South Korea to control its country than it is for America’s government to control a country over 100 times the size of South Korea. For the purpose of perspective, you could squeeze seven little South Koreas into one Big Texas.
Another important factor is population density, or how “crammed together” people are. This is of vital importance when trying to contain a pandemic. South Korea has 500 people per square kilometer. Dallas has 3,645; Houston has 3,662; Chicago has 11,943, and Manhattan has a whopping population density of 66,940.

South Korea is much denser than the US. That makes it easier for them.
South Korea is not as dense as the US. That makes it easier for them.
All while comparing America's biggest cities to South Korea as a whole. The plastic surgeon does not seem to be making arguments in good faith.

South Korea is not some totalitarian dictatorship. The vast majority of people I see have embraced wearing masks now that we have been told (I have a feeling that number would go up to near 100% if our President emphasized it). Plenty of people would have embraced contact tracking apps, we were not given the option (P.S. the government makes it well known they track us. People don't seem too upset People are moving more in Michigan. Here’s what that means for the spread of COVID-19.)




EDIT: Important to note, that the numbers in the article appear to be flat out made up:
New York City - Wikipedia
In 2017, the city had an estimated population density of 28,491 inhabitants per square mile (11,000/km2), rendering it the nation's most densely populated of all municipalities (of more than 100,000), with several small cities (of fewer than 100,000) in adjacent Hudson County, New Jersey having greater density, as per the 2010 census.[253] Geographically co-extensive with New York County, the borough of Manhattan's 2017 population density of 72,918 inhabitants per square mile (28,154/km2)[254] makes it the highest of any county in the United States



ANOTHER EDIT: Oh Jesus it gets worse. South Korea's numbers are presented in population per square kilometer (The "lower" number). The cities in the US are presented in population per square mile (the "higher" number) if not completely made up. The whole thing is just a facebook meme presented as an actual thought piece by a doctor.

 

[TheMoreYouKnow]

Mid March - 15 days to slow the spread introduced on March 16th


March 16:
South Korea: 8,236 cases + 75 deaths
USA: 4,604 Cases + 95 deaths

Currently:
South Korea: 11,541 Cases + 272 deaths
USA: 1,881,205 cases + 108,059 deaths


IT WAS TOO LATE TO DO ANYTHING! THE ONLY THING WE COULD DO WAS TRY TO NOT OVERWHELM OUR HEALTHCARE SYSTEM AND WE SUCCEEDED!

The issue isn't whether the U.S. measures taken were optimal, they almost certainly weren't on many different levels, but that doesn't change the fact that by March 16th there was widespread community presence of the virus in many areas in the U.S. and as a result widespread illness and death was inevitable given the unfavorable demographics for this disease in the U.S. and the lack of stomach for hardship-inducing, China-style quarantine measures.

 

[TheOtherOne]

Seoul has 10,400 people per square km for the record.

 

[VictorLustig]

Problem with NY is not the population density. That place is just the most connected city in the world. Stopping a virus like this one is like trying to stop a waterfall with your hands.

 

[TheMoreYouKnow]

Problem with NY is not the population density. That place is just the most connected city in the world. Stopping a virus like this one is like trying to stop a waterfall with your hands.

It's a problem for the entire country and most other Western countries. Places harder to get to and places few people want to go to are the places who will fare best in any pandemic scenario. That's why a comparison with say NZ never makes any sense as it's one of the most remote nations on earth.

I think a comparison with Germany is much fairer, not just for personal reasons, but because it is a large Western nation that is extremely well-connected and has a ton of business and leisure travel. Germany did see a lot fewer deaths than most other countries like that, and Germany began opening up again a good few weeks ago now. So while Germany clearly had less impact than others, they also clearly decided that the goal isn't to prevent every single death. They're trying to manage the disease and so far have done a solid job at it. By the way, Germany also being a federal state where states can make their own rules is also quite comparable to the U.S. that way.

 

[Dubi Doo]

To me this isn't an "either or" issue. Everyone has the right to protest peacefully, no matter the issue. You have no right to tell someone their cause isn't worth protesting but yours is. Also, none of the lockdown protests led to mass chaos and looting.

I just don't see how government ordering citizens to stay home, forcibly closing businesses, and ultimately creating a global recession is not something worth protesting. It's like everyone forgot we were putting people in jail for giving haircuts. Seems pretty dumb given what has happened over the past week, don't you think?

I never said otherwise. Everyone has the right to protest any issue they want, and that needs to be protected. I just personally side with one more than the other, but as I've stated, i do understand why someone whose livelihood is in jeopardy would protest.

Pandemics are going to be something we deal with in the future, so it's a good idea to have a conversation about rights if one is ongoing. The timing of them just seemed...bad. The initial protests were less than a month into the outbreak. We were still learning about the virus. Lombardy and NYC were still getting creamed. It just didn't seem like the right time to open up.

So unless we make some revolutionary strides in predicting and preventing a pandemic quickly then locking-down seems to be the most effective strategy since every virus is going to be different, and we'll need some buffering time to understand what we're dealing with.

 

[Claypool]

I never said otherwise. Everyone has the right to protest any issue they want, and that needs to be protected. I just personally side with one more than the other, but as I've stated, i do understand why someone whose livelihood is in jeopardy would protest.

Pandemics are going to be something we deal with in the future, so it's a good idea to have a conversation about rights if one is ongoing. The timing of them just seemed...bad. The initial protests were less than a month into the outbreak. We were still learning about the virus. Lombardy and NYC were still getting creamed. It just didn't seem like the right time to open up.

So unless we make some revolutionary strides in predicting and preventing a pandemic quickly then locking-down seems to be the most effective strategy since every virus is going to be different, and we'll need some buffering time to understand what we're dealing with.

Either the virus is deadly and we should be locked inside no matter what or it’s not. If you’re going to allow millions of people to riot and loot your city then you need to open back up.

 

[Lazlo Hollyfeld]

Either the virus is deadly and we should be locked inside no matter what or it’s not. If you’re going to allow millions of people to riot and loot your city then you need to open back up.

What cities have people locked inside no matter what due to coronavirus?

Seems like you're trying to force a complicated situation into a false binary option.

 

[paulhiggins]

re: South Korea

Ranked: The 25 Smartest Countries In The World


In IQ Ranking, S. Korea is 4th. Canada 8th and USA 28th. Now if we could only rank their leaders!

 

[izlez]

Either the virus is deadly and we should be locked inside no matter what or it’s not. If you’re going to allow millions of people to riot and loot your city then you need to open back up.

-Are you saying you do not know if the virus is deadly or not?

-Are you saying millions of people are rioting and looting, let alone millions in "your city"?

-Are you saying people are being "allowed" to riot and loot?

Because it sounds like you don't have a single clue as to what is going on in the world.

 

[bleedblue1223]

-Are you saying you do not know if the virus is deadly or not?

-Are you saying millions of people are rioting and looting, let alone millions in "your city"?

-Are you saying people are being "allowed" to riot and loot?

Because it sounds like you don't have a single clue as to what is going on in the world.

People are absolutely being allowed to riot and loot. A certain level of inaction allows it to continue, and many were encouraging it. The point is, the rhetoric around COVID and the accepted responses have completely flipped based on other political beliefs. Opening the economy will kill someone's grandma, but there is 0 chance the media will say that now in the same way they did before.

If COVID was as bad as some of the rhetoric said it was, then we are going to need to open up grave sites over the next few weeks. Or is it just going to spread quite a bit, but as long as the vulnerable population doesn't get hit with the spike, then the death tolls won't significantly rise. Deep down, we all know it's the 2nd scenario, people just didn't want to admit it when it was for a cause they didn't agree with.

 

[TheMoreYouKnow]

People are absolutely being allowed to riot and loot. A certain level of inaction allows it to continue, and many were encouraging it. The point is, the rhetoric around COVID and the accepted responses have completely flipped based on other political beliefs. Opening the economy will kill someone's grandma, but there is 0 chance the media will say that now in the same way they did before.

If COVID was as bad as some of the rhetoric said it was, then we are going to need to open up grave sites over the next few weeks. Or is it just going to spread quite a bit, but as long as the vulnerable population doesn't get hit with the spike, then the death tolls won't significantly rise. Deep down, we all know it's the 2nd scenario, people just didn't want to admit it when it was for a cause they didn't agree with.

I think it's almost guaranteed someone will die as a result of Covid spread at the protests/riots. I think it just goes to show that it's a matter of priorities..in these circles the protests are seen as more important than social distancing because of all the political goals attached to them. In other circles, the fate of small and medium sized businesses was more important than social distancing to save grandma.

 

[izlez]

People are absolutely being allowed to riot and loot. A certain level of inaction allows it to continue, and many were encouraging it. The point is, the rhetoric around COVID and the accepted responses have completely flipped based on other political beliefs. Opening the economy will kill someone's grandma, but there is 0 chance the media will say that now in the same way they did before.

If COVID was as bad as some of the rhetoric said it was, then we are going to need to open up grave sites over the next few weeks. Or is it just going to spread quite a bit, but as long as the vulnerable population doesn't get hit with the spike, then the death tolls won't significantly rise. Deep down, we all know it's the 2nd scenario, people just didn't want to admit it when it was for a cause they didn't agree with.

699 Arrested Sunday in Looting, Unrest Across Chicago, Police Say
Arrests during George Floyd protests swell to near 3,000 in L.A. County; many are locals
WHY ARE PEOPLE JUST FREELY ALLOWED TO LOOT????


US coronavirus: Cases surge in south and west as crowded protests spark worries - CNN
Protests Draw Shoulder-to-Shoulder Crowds After Months of Virus Isolation
Protesters against COVID-19 closures greet return of Iowa Legislature
Blaming protesters for COVID-19 spread ignores the bigger threats to health
The Protests Will Spread the Coronavirus
Protests Draw Shoulder-to-Shoulder Crowds After Months of Virus Isolation
'Really scary': experts fear protests and police risk accelerating Covid-19 spread
Why aren't people talking about the impact of coronavirus with these protests???????


And my favorite: Tons of people are protesting against police brutality and government overreach of big government by militarizing the police and literally deploying the military, and you are acting like you know the political affiliation of all those protesters? And your assumption is that they are NOT conservatives?? Weird.