Geeze the NFL GMs still can be stupid with a cap

Discussion in 'Fugu's Business of Hockey Forum' started by rekrul, Mar 2, 2005.

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  1. rekrul

    rekrul Registered User

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    saw this article today showing how even WITH a Hard Cap teams GMs get just as silly throwing dough at Free Agents

    http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/columns/story?columnist=pasquarelli_len&id=2002431

    "Never mind that two-thirds of the players on the rosters of the teams that played in Super Bowl XXXIX were homegrown. Forget that the history of free agency is rife with bad deals. So what if the streets of free agency are lined with fool's gold. None of that seems to matter this year. There is money to be spent, by gosh, and teams are going to spend it."

    "The thing is," Carolina Panthers general manager Marty Hurney said, "that there's just one team that holds up the [Vince Lombardi] trophy at the end of the season. And if you aren't that team, there is tremendous implied pressure to improve, to do whatever is possible to get that trophy the next year. And so teams fall into the old 'grass is greener' mind-set in evaluating players. You start to see more of the warts on your own guys and less of the deficiencies in someone else's player. And, usually, that's a trap."





    yet one more example why the NHLPA is so crazy for playing bluff with a shrinking pot of cash. Even with a hard cap free agent money will still get overspent on production. Exactly what is Goodenow fighting this losing battle for anyway, its not like all the NFL players, who BTW can be CUT at anytime, are snivleing about workers rights like they are freaking norma ray. No they have a union boss who could be even argued to be a owner lackey, yet where is the outrage? nowhere they laugh all the way to the bank. Their agents get paid because the NFL GMs get just as money spending happy when a trophy is possible.

    Hey boys go back to work, you marty lapoints of the future will still get too much for being a desent 3rd liner!
     
  2. mr gib

    mr gib Registered User

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    despite your rant the nhlpa is still better off just waiting it out - see what happen's -
     
  3. Jester

    Jester Registered User

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    outside of the billion dollars worth of compensation they lost this year and whatever they have lost in decreased NHL revenue and any length of time off in the future... yeah, they much better off...

    NFL is a great example of some people get it (new england, philly) and some don't (my redskins, god i hate dan snyder).
     
  4. mr gib

    mr gib Registered User

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    getting back the the nhlpa - they don't start getting paid again till october - better to wait and see what the league has up it's sleave - the nhl just might have to negotiate a fair deal - after reading a bit more on the impasse - implementation might be difficult for the league - as said the nhlpa should just wait it out -
     
  5. Jag68Sid87

    Jag68Sid87 Nothing Else Maattas

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    mr gib, that's spoken like one of the 30-or-so members of the NHLPA who were raking in $6 million annually. I wonder how the rest (majority) of the PA's constituents feel?
     
  6. mr gib

    mr gib Registered User

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    they all said they were on board yesterday -
     
  7. Jaded-Fan

    Jaded-Fan Registered User

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    The theory has a glitch or two. Several improtant moments pass between now and october. Television contracts are negotiated, or fall by the wayside, this summer. Also season ticket renewals come up this summer. Likely a few similar things that I have forgotten. All of these seem like owner issues, but they will all degenerate the bottom line if the players wait until October, and how much there is for them to divide. So it is not as if they have no interest in doing anything until October. All but 288 are without contracts remember. And the negotiations based on these revenues will effect almost all players within a year.
     
  8. Kestrel

    Kestrel Registered User

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    And I don't buy it. Maybe the majority are there, but a union is almost NEVER completely behind the leadership down to a man. Up until the point the union is in jeopardy, they're always going to present a unified image.
     
  9. mr gib

    mr gib Registered User

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    well i guess that's bob's strategy - sit and see if the owner's blink - i think they have a month before all this goes down? -
     
  10. mr gib

    mr gib Registered User

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    i understand that - but - they're solid for now - probably until the owner's reveal their hand -
     
  11. Kestrel

    Kestrel Registered User

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    I DO agree with Mr Gib to some degree. There are times where folding gets you the best deal, and times where waiting gets you the best deal. If the players had folded in the crunch, under the circumstances this time around, I think that would have gotten them the best deal at the time. Now... a deal sooner than later is obviously advantageous, but there is negotiating room. The players and Goodenow just need to be much more aware of when the appropriate time to give is this time around - or the strike will go longer and revenues and contracts will be even smaller.
     
  12. Brodeur

    Brodeur Registered User

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    Keep in mind that the NFL hard cap works because there is non-guarenteed money in those contracts, so teams can release unproductive players.

    For example, the Cowboys gave Marcellus Wiley a 4 year, 16 mil deal with a 4 mil signing bonus. Bonuses get prorated over the life of a contract, so salary cap wise, it looked something like:

    2004: 1 mil bonus + 1 mil base
    2005: 1 mil bonus + 3 mil base
    2006: 1 mil bonus + 4 mil base
    2007: 1 mil bonus + 4 mil base

    So Wiley got 4 mil up front in guarenteed money. But after the Cowboys released him, the remaining bonus (3 mil) gets prorated into the 2005 cap. But now they don't owe Wiley his base deals for 2005-07.

    If you had guarenteed deals......things would be a lot different. The NHLPA will agree on a cap.........but probably not non-guarenteed contracts.
     
  13. Jester

    Jester Registered User

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    if the NHLPA sits on the sidelines and watches espn drop the NHL telecast agreement i will simply laugh at them. ultimately if they want to make money out of this industry they have to take some responsibility for some aspects of the business.

    if ESPN drops the NHL, how many advertisers do you really think are going to be dropping cash to get their name in NHL rinks? people showing up at the game itself isn't nearly enough for them, they want television audiences. if that happens, it is going to simply murder the small market teams that don't have good tv-markets to begin with... lack of national exposure will simply make it worse.

    NHLPA has been completely irresponsible in this whole process from the start, choosing to blame the financial straights on the owners and offer nothing constructive to build the league up financially. their bosses have offered them a % of revenue, which is a GREAT deal if they had any confidence in the NHL, which they turned down if it involved any risk for themselves.

    that's big of them.

    they need to sit down and look at the wasteland of a business that will exist if TV goes by the wayside, advertisers don't pick up contracts, and the owners can't sell tickets. even if they aren't directly linked to the % of revenue, at some level their salaries are controlled by what these teams are making and if they burn the grain they live off of, how smart are they?

    so no. sitting and waiting is an absolutely awful strategy at this point because they are playing a war of attrition with billionaires. they've lost, the owners didn't crack. the owners have no reason to come back again until the playoffs next year from a financial perspective short term... bridges are burning, both sides need to start pouring some water, but the players ultimately require the industry to be as strong as possible MORE than the owners. so it matters a lot more to them in the short term (since their careers are miniscule) that they can get paid as much as possible as soon as possible.

    sure from bob's perspective the long battle is the way to go and hope for the best... if you are an actual member of the NHLPA, not just representing them, this is an idiotic path to take.
     
  14. mr gib

    mr gib Registered User

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    the deal was there - the player's caved - the owner's didn't want to play this year - as holik said - the owner's won't take yes for an answer - the nhlpa should sit and see what the owner's next move is - i still say get to the table and negotiate -
     
  15. Hunter74

    Hunter74 Registered User

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    Yes the players did cave and said that they would accept a cap. BUT the Owners also caved and said they would take a cap and No Linkage but for some idiotic reason a deal wasn't done. Bettman said the NHL couldn't afford a cap higher than $42.5mil and the players said they wouldn't accept a cap any lower than $49.5 or the $53.9 or whatever. Obviously now wiht all the damage done to the game and Owners not knowing what kind of incomes is gonna be comeing in I can undersand why they woudln't want to agree to a cap height and maybe even more important a floor they teams might not even afford to pay out.

    Funny thing is that rumours where flying that the NHL woudl of accepted a cap at $45mil but the players where to busy crying about arbitration and qualifieing offers and werent smart to agree on the $45mil which in turn woudl of put all pressure on Bettman and the Owners to cave in on the arbitration and qualitfieing offers which they would of in order to end the lockout and start making money again. But Goodenow is more worried about his resume and legacy as a negotiator to accept a cap or linkage even if it does cause his clients the arena in whcih they make there living. No price is to high to ensure Goodenows legacy right.

    I think that it would be very stupid for the NHLPA to just sit and wait. The more money the NHL loses and the more damage done to the NHL the less money thats gonna be there in the end for players and there contracts.


    Players shoudl just grow up and realise that growing the game and makeing it more prosperous is the job of the OWNERS and not them. Yes it must be hard not having that kinda control over a business that pays you. Right now the players have no control over owners business decisions that affect there particular finances. If thats what really bothers them then accept a cap with a condition that there be a marketing committee that would include representatives from the PA to ensure that there vioce is heard. That way they can sleep easy at night knowing that there money maker is in good hands and will always increase the $$$$$ in there bank accounts. I dont beleive this crap about Batterman saying NHL players are just like Auto workers and have no say. I am sure that that is not the final stance on the matter and that there is room there to negotiate. After all Batterman is not Bettman. The Shananhan summit is a good idea and if that players could incorporate something like that with the NHL to make the PA members feel better I am sure the NHL would buy into it if it meant that they could have linkage.


    I cant beleive that the players just want one way linkage.....What a load of crap that is. We want the big percentage if the league does well.. But if the league goes down hill we want the owners to dip into there personal bank accounts or other business in order to pay us the money that the league obvioulsy cant afford. What a load of junk that is...My God I ever met such a bunch of idiots as NHL players..Dumbess group of players on the earth.
     
  16. mr gib

    mr gib Registered User

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    this whole thing is going to court - sit and wait - i'm sure a poster will put a link up but on the fan 590 a sports illustrated lawyer claims the player's have a case against the league - should anyone get carried away with this impasse stuff
     
  17. iagreewithidiots

    iagreewithidiots Registered User

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    - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
     
  18. mr gib

    mr gib Registered User

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    sorry you think that is unworthy of a response but i will find you the link -
     
  19. mr gib

    mr gib Registered User

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    sportsnet pacific at 5:30 pst - bob mccown and kelley from thn interviewed him
     
  20. iagreewithidiots

    iagreewithidiots Registered User

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    -t-h-a-n-k-y-o-u-v-e-r-y-m-u-c-h-
    - - - - - - - - -- - - - - - - - - --
     
  21. mr gib

    mr gib Registered User

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  22. Jester

    Jester Registered User

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    16 owners weren't willing to go to 49 with no downward linkage...

    the lesser owners want a deal that works for them being competitive with the big boys, if the players would have agreed to a deal that would accomplish that, then they would have played this year. while i agree that from the owners side they aren't necessarily attacking this in the correct manner, the fact that they didn't cave can tell you one of two things at the most simplistic level:

    1) the owners, as you suggest using Holik as backup (that's laughable), didn't want to play this year.

    2) the smaller owners truly believe the situation from a business and competitive balance point of view is dire enough that they were willing to kill the season to force the issue.

    i choose the 2nd, simply because the owners aren't morons. they've proven to be very adept businessmen, otherwise they wouldn't have been able to purchase teams. these guys understand the bridges they are burning. they've adopted a scorched earth policy for a reason (there really are some great napoleon metaphors one could use about the legion of players taking on the vast financial wealth of the owners) and they are going to see it through.

    part of your belief system to some extent assumes that the owners are absolutely moronic. the fact that they didn't cave says so much about the situation it isn't even funny, and the NHLPA should wake up and figure a few things out. the owners aren't lying. if there was money to be made for 16 of the owners out there, 45 million... 49 million would have been an acceptable offer to them. the fact that they said no should tell the players so much about the reality of the situation it isn't funny.

    the owners want to be in a situation where they can be competitive without bankrupting themselves. they WANT to play hockey in that environment and are no longer willing to play it when they can't have those situations. they are willing to kill this league and bring it to its knees because they think they have to. they think that no matter how far they sink this ship, they are smart enough businessmen that they can bring it back up. they think there are fans out there that will come back when it is said and done. they think they can make it more television friendly (HDTV helping considerably).

    the NHLPA doesn't win by not being proactive in negotiations. they don't win by continuing to be obstinate, it has proven ineffective. it's time they seek to work with the owners. if they really want to spout about the ills of linkage i'll truly be done with them. they've had a year to educate themselves. they've had a year to make a lot less money. they've had a year to maybe come on to places like this and hear what fans have to say about what OUR lives are like and how much better a deal they really have. cuz i'll tell you one thing, just about anyone who has half a brain would jump at the offer if their boss gave them a % of company revenue. if it's a raw deal, then you should be looking for a new company to work for anyway.
     
  23. mr gib

    mr gib Registered User

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    thats all very nice - off to court
     
  24. Jester

    Jester Registered User

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    excellent strategic move for them... i have read smewhere , that even if the NHLPA does have a case -- and given current politics in america they better have a STRONG case -- that the process could take forever from their end. years. in the meantime the NHL could operate as it wants.

    i could be wrong about this, but that is what has been said by some. if that is the case... they're flushing down half their careers in order to make an extra few hundred thousand per year.

    wise choice.
     
  25. thinkwild

    thinkwild Veni Vidi Toga

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    I dunno, I got from that article, that like hockey, buying UFA's in football is more often than not a fools gambit that costs money and doesnt help you win. In other words, its not the advantage its made about to be, nor worth shutting down the game to prevent.
     
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