GDT: GAME VI: Avalanche @ Rangers - Blueshirt Velvet

BleedWell

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Jan 6, 2018
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Well Josts defensive ability should make him a good center for him then lol. Or Kakko can move to center and Jost or Kaut can play the Landeskog role for him with Stone on the other side.
If we somehow could get Kakko here he would play as a winger next season. Maybe put him down with the Eagles if we want him to become a center for us. Jost-Kakko would perhaps be a nice pair. Jost would get help offensively and that's what he needs desperately.
 

Foppa2118

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As a left handed center that's still improving his speed, Jost needs someone with more skill, speed, and offensive IQ to work with on his right than Colin Wilson. They get clogged up in transition if Kerfoot doesn't have the puck, and that's not gonna work with a Jost line.

They've got to do quick give and go plays, and those aren't always there if they've got to force passes to Kerfoot on the left every time. They need more outlets than that.

Same thing inside the zone. Wilson isn't separating himself from the opposition enough, and a lot of Jost's game is based on drawing the opposition toward him, or playing with them on his back. Then moving the puck to someone who's been left open.

It's not an arrogant belief that he's more skilled than he is like was implied earlier, that's causing the problem. He's incredibly skilled. It's the passing options he's got. Most of the time, he's only got one in Kerfoot because Wilson isn't finding the soft spots on the ice.

If the top line ever hits a bump in the road (which may never happen at this rate) and they put Landy on that line in place of Wilson, I think it will be MUCH more effective, and probably generate a lot more offense playing the same down low cycle game they are now.

Landy's puck movement is probably the most underrated aspect of his game. MacKinnon benefits from it greatly, especially in transition where he regularly hits Nate on the tape in stride on the breakouts.
 
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GirardSpinorama

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Rants, like any good scoring line winger, uses the whole ice. Sometimes he comes in on the left, sometimes the right, as others have said, one side serves for better shooting angles, the other for passing plays. Honestly it doesn't matter a ton where he or the other guy lines up for faceoffs, if that trio worked then so be it, but I'm fine with the top line as is.

I still think for how awesome that line is, however, that they play atrociously in the defensive zone, and that needs to be addressed somehow. I'm not expecting them to be like the Bruins' top line but FFS they shouldn't be spending extended shifts in their own end.

Agreed and a lot of that is on Mack. He must play more like a two way centre in the defensive zone.
 

Pokecheque

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Well...I mean, yeah you'd like him to be more defensively responsible but I just don't see it happening. As I've said he has improved his effort in the defensive zone this season, which ain't sayin' much, but it's still not great. And to be fair there are more reasons than just him that are causing that line to get stalled in their own end, but it's still concerning.

Kind of a tricky thing, Ken Hitchcock basically browbeat Mike Modano until the latter became the player Hitch wanted him to be. Scotty Bowman and Steve Yzerman had a very contentious relationship (reportedly) to start until Yzerman finally changed his game after spending a lot of his prime years putting up incredible numbers. Bednar has talked about his defensive game a little and actually tried to compliment him a little, but so far his approach has been to try and surround him with more responsible players, which for some weird reason isn't working. I don't know if Landeskog's own-zone play has regressed or he just wasn't as good at it as we thought, but he should be the guy able to free the puck up and get it to someone who can move it out. Same with Rants, who isn't a real "two way" player per se, but he's supposed to have a pretty solid defensive acumen.
 

UncleRisto

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I think Mikko can still be successful in spurts on the left side. There's situations that might have them try that down the road depending on how Kaut turns out, who they draft in 2019, and if they add a RW like Stone or someone else for secondary scoring.

RW is definitely his preferred position, but they might form a more balanced lineup at some point in the future with him on the left.

Mikko - MacK - Kakko

Just sayin...
Mikko - MacKo - Kakko
 
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Foppa2118

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Well...I mean, yeah you'd like him to be more defensively responsible but I just don't see it happening. As I've said he has improved his effort in the defensive zone this season, which ain't sayin' much, but it's still not great. And to be fair there are more reasons than just him that are causing that line to get stalled in their own end, but it's still concerning.

Kind of a tricky thing, Ken Hitchcock basically browbeat Mike Modano until the latter became the player Hitch wanted him to be. Scotty Bowman and Steve Yzerman had a very contentious relationship (reportedly) to start until Yzerman finally changed his game after spending a lot of his prime years putting up incredible numbers. Bednar has talked about his defensive game a little and actually tried to compliment him a little, but so far his approach has been to try and surround him with more responsible players, which for some weird reason isn't working. I don't know if Landeskog's own-zone play has regressed or he just wasn't as good at it as we thought, but he should be the guy able to free the puck up and get it to someone who can move it out. Same with Rants, who isn't a real "two way" player per se, but he's supposed to have a pretty solid defensive acumen.

Jost hasn't really been surrounded by more responsible players though. Kerfoot and Wilson are average defensively at best. Same goes for last year when Compher and Andrighetto were on his line.

Yzerman and Modano were almost 30 by the time they put their offensive and defensive games together. Players do it much sooner now, but at 20 years old Jost needs more help than he's getting. He's spending way too much energy on defense because he doesn't have a lot of help there.

A lot of what will make a Jost line successful will be the old adage of good defense leads to offense. They're not getting that right now with the lines as they are.
 

Foppa2118

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Just acquire stone and plunk him on Jost’s wing. Simple. :sarcasm:

Mikko - Mack - Kakko
Landy - Jost - Stone

giphy.gif
 

Avsavsavsavsavs

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Another thing to look forward to this offseason beyond the 2 picks is the huge FA pool, hopefully we nab someone at Stones level.
 

Bender

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I know I've been beating this drum over and over again... Jost's skating as his size just isn't there for him to be a two way force at center. I believe he can play on both sides of the ice effectively at center, just not at the same time. Right now we are seeing him be real effective defensively and putrid offensively. I believe that if you want the best out of him on both sides of the ice, you'll have to move him to wing. That will shorten up the ice for him and focus in his game while letting him be a force on both sides.

A part of his game that just flat out bothers me is his thought that he has more hands talent than he actually has. There are times he can pull off some great things, but he is not good at picking his battles and ends up killing a number of plays by not making the smart move and/or holding on to the puck too long.

You can keep beating it if you want but it won't really make it true. There are a ton of examples in the NHL of players that are about Jost's size that have had a ton of success. I think his skating has improved and I certainly woudn't say it's bad. He's at least on par with guys like Soderberg and Paul Stastny.

5'11" centers in the NHL
Giroux, Duchene, Crosby, Point, Trochek (5'10")

6'0" centers in the NHL (pretty much GIANTS, really)
Nathan MacKinnon, Krejci, Backstrom, Barzal, Schmaltz, Horvat, Backlund, Stastny

So I think we need to give this whole, "he's too small to play center thing a break"...it's baseless and players that size make it as centers on the top-2 lines quite often. I would venture that it's WAY more based on attitude and confidence rather than to simply judge him on his size.

Now if you want to say that you think he'd make a better winger or you think he'd be of better use to the team as a winger, I'm fine with that (I quite like Jost as a winger as well) but I don't like the whole, he's too small argument. There just isn't much difference between 5'11" and 6'0" and it's such a huge stygma that 5'11" guys are 'small' and guys that are 6'0" have 'ok size'.

 
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Pokecheque

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Jost hasn't really been surrounded by more responsible players though. Kerfoot and Wilson are average defensively at best. Same goes for last year when Compher and Andrighetto were on his line.

Yzerman and Modano were almost 30 by the time they put their offensive and defensive games together. Players do it much sooner now, but at 20 years old Jost needs more help than he's getting. He's spending way too much energy on defense because he doesn't have a lot of help there.

A lot of what will make a Jost line successful will be the old adage of good defense leads to offense. They're not getting that right now with the lines as they are.

I'd argue Kerf is quite adept at moving the puck out of the zone, he's above-average at the very least in that department. There are obviously other aspects to playing defense but I'd rank him above quite a few players on the current roster in that one area alone. But yeah I've never really been that impressed with Wilson's defensive game. But I'd say I don't really see defense being an issue with that line, it's the other end of the ice where there's a problem...they need someone with some better finish. Hopefully Ghetto's that guy...we'll see I guess.

And yeah, I know both Yzerman and Modano were grizzled vets by the time they were told "You need to play defense now," and I'd also add that was a completely different era where goaltending, defense, and obstruction ruled the day. Point is, while I'd like to see Nate improve his defensive game a little, I'm not overly concerned about it, and for now I think Bednar's going about it the right way.
 

LieutenantDangle

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I think the top line was above average in their own zone last season. They were constantly matching up against the other teams’ top lines at Pepsi center (meaning it was intentional) and did pretty damn well. For whatever reason they’re having some hickups this season, but it’ll likely buff out. Both Mack and rants are way ahead of where they were last season this many games in. They’ll warm up as the season progresses and clean a few things up.
 

henchman21

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You can keep beating it if you want but it won't really make it true. There are a ton of examples in the NHL of players that are about Jost's size that have had a ton of success. I think his skating has improved and I certainly woudn't say it's bad. He's at least on par with guys like Soderberg and Paul Stastny.

5'11" centers in the NHL
Giroux, Duchene, Crosby, Point, Trochek (5'10")

6'0" centers in the NHL (pretty much GIANTS, really)
Krejci, Backstrom, Barzal, Schmaltz, Horvat,


In that 5'11" group... not all are great two way players (looking at Duchene). All are very good skaters (which Jost isn't for his size). I have always said that if the player is smaller, they need to be better skaters to compensate for their size. The bigger a player is, the less that skating has to compensate. A 6'3" center doesn't have to skate like a 5'10" center to be as effective. IMO Jost's skating needs to be very good, not just for his size, but very good in general to be a two way guy at center. Moving him to wing cuts down the amount of ice to cover, so a bit more leeway in the skating department. Jost with his current skating can work at center, but you'll just be sacrificing either offense or defense. We are seeing that currently. I'd love for Jost to prove me wrong here, but if his skating doesn't improve drastically, I don't see him being able to play both ends of the ice at a high level at center. It will be one or the other. I don't have problems with smaller centers, I have problems with smaller centers that are not very good to elite skaters.

In that group (Point), the one elite defensive center is arguably a top 5 skater in the NHL.

Also within this it should be stated I believe the Avs could be a playoff team with a MacK-Jost 1-2 punch. I don't see them being legit contenders with that setup. To me, those are completely different realms of teams. I hope Jost proves me wrong.
 
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Foppa2118

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I'd argue Kerf is quite adept at moving the puck out of the zone, he's above-average at the very least in that department. There are obviously other aspects to playing defense but I'd rank him above quite a few players on the current roster in that one area alone. But yeah I've never really been that impressed with Wilson's defensive game. But I'd say I don't really see defense being an issue with that line, it's the other end of the ice where there's a problem...they need someone with some better finish. Hopefully Ghetto's that guy...we'll see I guess.

And yeah, I know both Yzerman and Modano were grizzled vets by the time they were told "You need to play defense now," and I'd also add that was a completely different era where goaltending, defense, and obstruction ruled the day. Point is, while I'd like to see Nate improve his defensive game a little, I'm not overly concerned about it, and for now I think Bednar's going about it the right way.

I didn't see the post above yours referring to Mack. I thought you were referring to Jost with most of that.

I agree, I'm not too concerned with Nate's defensive game. He's clearly better than Duchene defensively, and that was part of the reason the team struggled back then. Nate works harder, and is stronger physically than Matt. He's made some really nice back checks and good uses of his stick defensively so far this year too.

Having Landy and Mikko help defensively is a big benefit to Nate. I don't think I'd want to see him expel more energy defensively. He just adds so much when he's got that full jump through the neutral zone, generating high quality scoring chances off the rush.
 
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Foppa2118

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In that 5'11" group... not all are great two way players (looking at Duchene). All are very good skaters (which Jost isn't for his size). I have always said that if the player is smaller, they need to be better skaters to compensate for their size. The bigger a player is, the less that skating has to compensate. A 6'3" center doesn't have to skate like a 5'10" center to be as effective. IMO Jost's skating needs to be very good, not just for his size, but very good in general to be a two way guy at center. Moving him to wing cuts down the amount of ice to cover, so a bit more leeway in the skating department. Jost with his current skating can work at center, but you'll just be sacrificing either offense or defense. We are seeing that currently. I'd love for Jost to prove me wrong here, but if his skating doesn't improve drastically, I don't see him being able to play both ends of the ice at a high level at center. It will be one or the other. I don't have problems with smaller centers, I have problems with smaller centers that are not very good to elite skaters.

In that group (Point), the one elite defensive center is arguably a top 5 skater in the NHL.

Also within this it should be stated I believe the Avs could be a playoff team with a MacK-Jost 1-2 punch. I don't see them being legit contenders with that setup. To me, those are completely different realms of teams. I hope Jost proves me wrong.

And Point wasn't a great skater until recently, and after he worked with Barb Underhill, who is Tracy Tutton's friend and former colleague.

Stastny, Krejci, Stepan, Marcus Kruger, and Joe Pavelski are all 5'11" - 6'0" and weren't great skaters, but improved enough to become good two way centers in the NHL.

Insisting that one inch will prevent you from playing center in the NHL is ridiculous.
 

Foppberg

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I don’t think there’s much of a question he won’t be a top 6 player. Whether that’s at C or W is still to be decided.
Agreed. But for me it doesn't really matter if he's center or winger. To be completely honest unless he were to exceed expectations and develop into a Pavelski type I don't think a MacKinnon-Jost tandem would be contender worthy.
 

BleedWell

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I don’t think there’s much of a question he won’t be a top 6 player. Whether that’s at C or W is still to be decided.
I think there is. He was our tenth overall pick and we all want him badly to be a top six guy for us. If we start making cup runs two-three years from now is Jost really a top six player. I haven't seen that in him yet. Luckily there's still time for him to show more.
 

The Abusement Park

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Agreed. But for me it doesn't really matter if he's center or winger. To be completely honest unless he were to exceed expectations and develop into a Pavelski type I don't think a MacKinnon-Jost tandem would be contender worthy.

Same. I really like the strides he’s taken defensively and with board battles. But I’m still not seeing much as much progress offensively as I’d like.
 

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