TV: Game of Thrones prequel pilot ordered

[Rhaegar Targaryen]

Personally, the biggest disappointment to me was the Walkers. They were so mysterious and such a big threat for the entire show, heck look what the first scene of the show was.

Instead of doing anything cool with it, they ended it pretty lame. I hope the books expand on it a little. They have a lot of potential there, especially with the ties to the Children of the Forrest.

 

[MadDevil]

This is still one of the things I can't understand. Like if D&D were able to write good stuff before, why weren't they able to do it later? They even had more time in the later seasons when there were less episodes plus they took a year off to finish the show. And then season 8 starts with Tyrion making a "clever" joke about Varys not having balls... Like, how did they spend all that time if that was the best they could come up with? And I don't want to just nitpick about stupid jokes, but the whole season feels like a first draft of the script.

Honestly, I kind of get the feeling they just burned out and wanted to get it over with.

 

[Osprey]

We shouldn't excuse HBO, either, IMO. With their decades of experience producing award winning shows, they should've known better than to try to wrap up such a long-running and popular series in only 6 episodes. They could've insisted on a full-length season and allowed D&D to step aside if they were in such a rush to end their involvement. I bet that D&D would've acquiesced to a full season rather than leave their baby in anyone else's hands. Instead, HBO just went along with their proposed rush job and paid the price for it.

 

[StrangeVision]

We shouldn't excuse HBO, either, IMO. With their decades of experience producing award winning shows, they should've known better than to try to wrap up such a long-running and popular series in only 6 episodes. They could've insisted on a full-length season and allowed D&D to step aside if they were in such a rush to end their involvement. I bet that D&D would've acquiesced rather than leave their baby in the others' hands. Instead, HBO just went along with their proposed rush job and paid the price for it.

They tried.

It Is Now Clear Having Two Short ‘Game Of Thrones’ Final Seasons Was A Mistake

"HBO would have been happy for the show to keep going, to have more episodes in the final season," Benioff said. "We always believed it was about 73 hours, and it will be roughly that. As much as they wanted more, they understood that this is where the story ends."

"I don't know," Martin said. "Ask David [Benioff] and Dan [Weiss] when they come through. We could have gone to 11, 12, 13 seasons, but I guess they wanted a life.”

D&D wanted this to end so they could do Star Wars, it's very clear. Could GRRM have hurried up? Definitely, he shares some blame here. However, when D&D realized they were in over their heads (which they've admitted to) they could have reached out for help, but they didn't. They insisted on ending the show early and miraculously made one of the biggest TV phenomenons in history disappear from public consciousness within a month.

The only mistake HBO made was getting in bed with a couple doofuses like D&D.

 

[Osprey]

They tried.

It Is Now Clear Having Two Short ‘Game Of Thrones’ Final Seasons Was A Mistake



D&D wanted this to end so they could do Star Wars, it's very clear. Could GRRM have hurried up? Definitely, he shares some blame here. However, when D&D realized they were in over their heads (which they've admitted to) they could have reached out for help, but they didn't. They insisted on ending the show early and miraculously made one of the biggest TV phenomenons in history disappear from public consciousness within a month.

The only mistake HBO made was getting in bed with a couple doofuses like D&D.

The link doesn't work, but HBO "wanting" longer seasons is not trying, IMO. If they'd really wanted longer seasons, they could've gotten them. HBO employed D&D, not the other way around.

 

[StrangeVision]

The link doesn't work, but HBO "wanting" longer seasons is not trying, IMO. If they'd really wanted longer seasons, they could've gotten them. HBO employed D&D, not the other way around.

Weird, it works for me. Give this one a go: It Is Now Clear Having Two Short ‘Game Of Thrones’ Final Seasons Was A Mistake .

What do you expect HBO to do? D&D are not slaves or indentured servants, they are essentially contractors. If they refused to commit to longer final seasons what could HBO have done? Sued them? D&D made their decision, we all had to live with it.

 

[RandV]

Weird, it works for me. Give this one a go: It Is Now Clear Having Two Short ‘Game Of Thrones’ Final Seasons Was A Mistake .

What do you expect HBO to do? D&D are not slaves or indentured servants, they are essentially contractors. If they refused to commit to longer final seasons what could HBO have done? Sued them? D&D made their decision, we all had to live with it.

It's also not really clear how the contract works here. GRRM owns the property, and he gave the rights to a TV show to D&D, who went to HBO to produce it. Obviously HBO is the biggest fish here but this legal stuff is all very well established and can give the little guy a lot of power.

 

[Osprey]

Weird, it works for me. Give this one a go: It Is Now Clear Having Two Short ‘Game Of Thrones’ Final Seasons Was A Mistake .

Sorry. It turns out that it's on my end. One of my extensions is blocking forbes.com for some reason (probably because I was trying to get around a paywall at some point).

What do you expect HBO to do? D&D are not slaves or indentured servants, they are essentially contractors. If they refused to commit to longer final seasons what could HBO have done? Sued them? D&D made their decision, we all had to live with it.

HBO owned the TV rights and the studio (HBO Entertainment) that produced the series. They could've done whatever they wanted. When the pilot episode that D&D produced was poorly received, HBO demanded that 90% of it be re-shot. They could've demanded that the final season be full length and replaced D&D as the executive producers and writers if they refused to, but they chose not to and to trust them, instead.

 

[discostu]

Weird, it works for me. Give this one a go: It Is Now Clear Having Two Short ‘Game Of Thrones’ Final Seasons Was A Mistake .

What do you expect HBO to do? D&D are not slaves or indentured servants, they are essentially contractors. If they refused to commit to longer final seasons what could HBO have done? Sued them? D&D made their decision, we all had to live with it.

They did have the option of firing them and bringing in other people to run it. However, thinking about past HBO shows, I can't think of any major show they've had where they're changed the show runners. I'm not fully versed though, so I could easily be forgetting something.

I imagine it would have quite the impact on the network as a showrunner friendly network if they pulled that move. Especially as the network is trying to compete for talent as they launch.

The tail end of the show was not good, but, it's hard to find any bad guys in this. Sometimes, a show just goes off the rails.

 

[StrangeVision]

HBO owned the TV rights and the studio (HBO Entertainment) that produced the series. They could've done whatever they wanted. When the pilot episode that D&D produced was poorly received, HBO demanded that 90% of it be re-shot. They could've demanded that the final season be full length and replaced D&D as the executive producers and writers if they refused to, but they chose not to and to trust them, instead.

Do you have something supporting your position? HBO may have been able to pull the series, but as far as creative control, that's up to whatever the contracts stipulate, and everything I've read points to them basically having complete creative control. There is no indication anywhere that HBO was happy with D&D's decision to shorten the end of the series. It was a cash cow for them, why would they be happy with it? D&D made the decision unilaterally because it was their decision to make.

With regards to the unaired pilot, it seems like they basically had a buddy watch it, he said it was garbage, HBO agreed, and D&D redid it.

They did have the option of firing them and bringing in other people to run it. However, thinking about past HBO shows, I can't think of any major show they've had where they're changed the show runners. I'm not fully versed though, so I could easily be forgetting something.

I imagine it would have quite the impact on the network as a showrunner friendly network if they pulled that move. Especially as the network is trying to compete for talent as they launch.

The tail end of the show was not good, but, it's hard to find any bad guys in this. Sometimes, a show just goes off the rails.

Could they have brought in other people to finish it? IIRC, GRRM gave D&D alone the rights to adapt his books, not HBO.

 

[Osprey]

Do you have something supporting your position? HBO may have been able to pull the series, but as far as creative control, that's up to whatever the contracts stipulate, and everything I've read points to them basically having complete creative control.

That's basically just a promise that the studio will try not to interfere. HBO would never put itself into a position where it didn't actually have the final say. If they'd done that, we would've been stuck with the pilot episode and the series might've been awful and short.

Could they have brought in other people to finish it? IIRC, GRRM gave D&D alone the rights to adapt his books, not HBO.

GRRM didn't give away the TV rights to D&D. He sold them to HBO.

 

[StrangeVision]

That's basically just a promise that the studio will try not to interfere. HBO would never put itself into a position where it didn't actually have the final say. If they'd done that, we would've been stuck with the pilot episode and the series might've been awful and short.

Without knowing the caveats of the deal they made it's impossible to know what exactly HBO could have done. What we do know is that HBO has said they wanted more and David Benioff said HBO wanted more, which is a pretty clear indication that D&D made this decision without HBO's input. D&D were not employees of HBO in the way a cashier is an employee of a store, they were contracted showrunners who created the show, and if HBO starts meddling in how their showrunners operate like that, who knows how it affects their ability to get new shows/showrunners going forward.

Again, it's pretty clear D&D alone made this decision despite what others wanted.

GRRM didn't give away the TV rights to D&D. He sold them to HBO.

Without knowing the details it's impossible to say for certain, but I remember something about GRRM specifically allowing D&D to adapt his story.

 

[Tkachuk4MVP]

Part of what has made HBO tv so great over the years is that the network generally leaves the showrunners alone to do their thing. So while people might be upset with them for not overriding D&D, that type of oversight/managerial style could bleed into future shows and would do more harm than good in the long run.

Edit: StrangeVision essentially said the same thing in a more eloquent way .

 

[Mr Fahrenheit]

Part of what has made HBO tv so great over the years is that the network generally leaves the showrunners alone to do their thing. So while people might be upset with them for not overriding D&D, that type of oversight/managerial style could bleed into future shows and would do more harm than good in the long run.

Edit: StrangeVision essentially said the same thing in a more eloquent way .

Yeah, the alternative is the Dexter ending

 

[Tkachuk4MVP]

Yeah, the alternative is the Dexter ending

Or The Walking Dead (aka the never-ending show that should've been axed a while ago).

 

[discostu]

I do wonder in a scenario where they did extend another couple of seasons with a different show runner, would the cast have signed extensions. The core seemed ready to move on.

Plus, what would have happened to production under Covid? The show was being filmed in numerous international locations. Things would have paused, with a logistical nightmare to bring everyone back again. It's a good chance that things would have been rewritten on the fly to account for availability.

The show wasn't great, things could have been worse in my view.

 

[Osprey]

What we do know is that HBO has said they wanted more and David Benioff said HBO wanted more, which is a pretty clear indication that D&D made this decision without HBO's input. D&D were not employees of HBO in the way a cashier is an employee of a store, they were contracted showrunners who created the show, and if HBO starts meddling in how their showrunners operate like that, who knows how it affects their ability to get new shows/showrunners going forward.

Again, it's pretty clear D&D alone made this decision despite what others wanted.

That's not an indication that the decision was made without HBO's input, but the opposite. How else would Benioff know that they would've liked more episodes and that they understood why it should it end where it did? They no doubt had meetings in which D&D made their case for a shorter season and HBO agreed to it because they were convinced by their argument and trusted them. Don't confuse HBO agreeing with and trusting them with having no input and no choice but to do whatever D&D wanted.

Without knowing the details it's impossible to say for certain, but I remember something about GRRM specifically allowing D&D to adapt his story.

He did, but permission to adapt the story isn't the same as the rights to it.

 

[Osprey]

Part of what has made HBO tv so great over the years is that the network generally leaves the showrunners alone to do their thing. So while people might be upset with them for not overriding D&D, that type of oversight/managerial style could bleed into future shows and would do more harm than good in the long run.

Edit: StrangeVision essentially said the same thing in a more eloquent way .

You actually seem to be making my argument that HBO could've overridden D&D and chose not to. Also, the fact that they did that and it blew up so badly in their faces could end up doing the harm in the long run that you speak of if HBO overreacts in order to prevent this kind of disaster from happening to them again.

 

[StrangeVision]

That's not an indication that the decision was made without HBO's input, but the opposite. How else would Benioff know that they would've liked more episodes and that they understood why it should it end where it did? They no doubt had meetings in which D&D made their case for a shorter season and HBO agreed to it because they were convinced by their argument and trusted them. Don't confuse HBO agreeing with and trusting them with having no input and no choice but to do whatever D&D wanted.

How do you figure?

Here's a possible series of conversations:

D1: Hey, you want to end this series early?
D2: Yeah, man. Let's do it.
_____________________________

D&D: Hey HBO, we're going to end the series with two short seasons, K?
HBO: Well, we'd like more episodes because this series is an amazing cash cow for us, but this is your show and meddling in our showrunners' work could have adverse affects on our future business, okay go for it.
D&D: Yay.

Seems pretty straightforward to me. Given quotes and information we know, that is far more likely than HBO being behind shortening their most successful series in history. It just makes absolutely zero sense for HBO to want to end the show early and haphazardly, because that could hurt their brand a shitload - which it has.

This is the series of who is at fault (top being most at fault):
1)D&D

2)GRRM



way down here...

111) A beetle.





172) HBO for getting in bed with D&D and not having the premonition to put a non-compete clause in their contract forbidding them from signing onto Star Wars before finishing GOT.

He did, but permission to adapt the story isn't the same as the rights to it.

Indeed, which is why the lack of information is the problem. For all we know there could be a contract somewhere that states HBO has the rights to the series if and only if D&D are the showrunners. No clue without knowing everything about the deals they made more than a decade ago.

 

[Osprey]

Indeed, which is why the lack of information is the problem. For all we know there could be a contract somewhere that states HBO has the rights to the series if and only if D&D are the showrunners. No clue without knowing everything about the deals they made more than a decade ago.

I'm sure that it was agreed that they'd be the showrunners, but I doubt that the contract actually stipulates that. For one, the contract was for the TV rights in general, which HBO still owns and is using to make this prequel series without D&D's involvement. Secondly, they were just a couple of screenwriters who hadn't proven that they were even up to the task of running such a huge show, much less making a hit out of it. Why would HBO or Martin risk tens of millions of dollars and the success of the show just to show faith in them? Along those same lines, what if D&D died, were arrested or broke company policy? Could they not be replaced, ending the show? Provisions could've been written in for such things, but that's a lot of work just to accommodate a stipulation that wouldn't have made much sense in the first place, especially in 2008. Finally, if you could stipulate such things, you'd think that George Lucas would've attached a lot of strings to his sale of Lucasfilm to Disney so that he wouldn't have ended up disappointed that he was marginalized and his sequel story ideas ignored.

Anyways, this is getting rather away from point, since HBO and D&D got along great. It's safe to say that HBO had all final decisions, though, since they were the ones who bought the TV rights and financed the show, not D&D. At the same time, though, they were highly trusting of D&D and didn't interfere with what they thought was best.

 

[TheAngryHank]

In some instances they deliberately straight up traded one for one good writing for showing off good production. The Long Night episode was the best example of this.

Nothing from the defence of Winterfell made sense tactically. There's absolutely no reason for the Dothraki to be charging headlong into the army of the dead other than it looks cool.

The best part was the red witch lighting all the Dothraki swords , one of my favorite scenes from the entire series. Your totally right , sense? Nope, cool as hell.. F yeah.

 

[RandV]

Part of what has made HBO tv so great over the years is that the network generally leaves the showrunners alone to do their thing. So while people might be upset with them for not overriding D&D, that type of oversight/managerial style could bleed into future shows and would do more harm than good in the long run.

Edit: StrangeVision essentially said the same thing in a more eloquent way .

There's also a ton of work to be done between HBO green lighting the schedule and delivering and letting fans watch and get pissed off with the finished product. At the point where they have to make the call they don't necessarily know how it's going to be received, and they were riding hot going in.

 

[Tkachuk4MVP]

You actually seem to be making my argument that HBO could've overridden D&D and chose not to. Also, the fact that they did that and it blew up so badly in their faces could end up doing the harm in the long run that you speak of if HBO overreacts in order to prevent this kind of disaster from happening to them again.

I never disagreed with your argument, by all accounts HBO left D&D alone. I was pointing out that that’s been HBO’s way of operating for a long time now, and it’s resulted in a lot of interesting, risk-taking, unique, quality TV over the years. I really hope they continue on that path and don’t let one (or two) GOT seasons lead to massive oversight. As talented as HBO execs have proven to be over the years, they’re still not the ones creating these shows.

 

[Fantomas]

They ordered this thing three years ago?

So where is it?

 

[ecemleafs]

They ordered this thing three years ago?

So where is it?

they begin filming very soon if not already. should premiere in 2022.