CC96
Serious Offender
Yup. Forwards that can defend through possession are an extremely valuable asset. That's why Whitney and Vrbata managed to be around +25 each, in 2012, when they played on the together on the Prime Line.
GDT: Game 8: Lightning Rods 4:30 MST 10/28/2014 @Amalie Arena
- Thread starter jacobhockey13
- Start date
Yup. Forwards that can defend through possession are an extremely valuable asset. That's why Whitney and Vrbata managed to be around +25 each, in 2012, when they played on the together on the Prime Line.
http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showthread.php?t=1581521&page=6
From Post# 130
Craig Morgan @cmorganfoxaz · 17h
LeBlanc on 1st full offseason: "For us as a business group, we have no excuses next year. If we don't hit our targets, it's all on us."
Craig Morgan @cmorganfoxaz · 3h
Offseason actions will speak volumes about #Coyotes' ownership & team's future: http://foxs.pt/1eAfL5Z via @FOXSPORTSAZ
ck26
Alcoholab User
I didn't see the full game, and yeah, a couple of really awful turnovers, but something else struck me watching the highlights: it looked like we were moving in slow-motion.
I don't know what the Edmonton Model preaches, but every time that Dave Tippett rewards veterans and "safe" play and mistake-free hockey, the more and more you see guys playing at half-speed. Being so careful positionally that nobody ever steps up and tries to REALLY make a play.
I don't need Tobias Rieder and Jordan Szwarz to show up and be PPG players; I need them to show up in Glendale with caffeine and a snarl. I can deal with giving up more odd-man rushes if it means our defensemen pinch more often and either hold the puck in the offensive zone or they throw more Campbell-on-Umburger style hits. Now that Ribeiro is gone, how many of our forwards are skilled enough to dangle anyone and skate around guys in the offensive zone? The Coyotes are easy to play against. I swear that's the reputation through the league. When's the last time you saw anyone on this team throwing a Scott Stevens-style open-ice hit? Which one of Stone or Yandle would step up and try to make this first hit? Klink, Hanzal and Moss are all bigger than Brendan Morrow ... do any of them EVER try that second one?
So how do they solve it? What is it beyond the budget and roster that needs to change to solve the problem?
I would argue the culprit is the Arizona hockey market. To a large extent.....
The market dictates the budget
The market dictates what players the team can attract and what players the team can retain.
You could argue the ownership instability is to blame, but the ownership instability was caused by the hockey market
Some like to argue it's the arena location, and again if that is true, than again that's a result of a weak hockey market...an issue that would not be so detrimental in a good hockey market.
We lost the only two top 5 draft picks in large part because of the Arizona hockey market.
I admit Tippett deserves some responsibility for the Turris fiasco, as does Turris, but to ignore the real root of the problem, the hockey market, makes it impossible to have any sort of meaningful discussions.
I don't think 'now' is necessarily the right time, but the point you are making is quite valid...If Tippett can't work his magic within the next 20 games, then I would be all for the kids getting at least 40 NHL games on their resume.
Well I'm operating under the assumption that we are no longer a bubble team. Same roster minus the hot start last year essentially.
If 1 of the lesser prospects + either Samuelsson or Domi can perform I think we already get back to bubble team status as soon as next season without doing much of anything. That's a pretty decent turn around. Not the greatest thing to hope since it could fail spectacularly. Heck you could even call it a non-plan.
But the bottom line is poorer teams need productive players on ELCs to be competitive. That's the only reason I say it's time for the Szwarz/Lessio/Reiders of the world to play right now. Not because I think they are necessarily better players then the ones we have now. But because if we can see what they have right now Maloney will have a much better indication of what to do in the offseason regarding the bottom six. I don't think they will magically become better players with a cup coffee + 60 games in the A. But we will have lost a huge chunk of evaluation time.
I fear we will be going into next off season with too many unknowns which will paralyze Maloney into not cutting ties with guys who aren't a fit. Because we simply won't know. Then we'll have a scenario where instead of having 3-4 kids to play we have 3-4 kids(who are not really kids any more but still have no experience) and an additional 3 guys in Domi Samuelsson and Perlini. If Tip isn't gonna play 2 young guys now what the hell do we do with 7.
Not gonna bother with McEichel scenarios because we just aren't worse than the 2-4 teams currently at the bottom. Sure sure Uncle Gary etc etc.
We are currently number 4 in the McEichel race. Colorado is below us and I think they have more potential for a turnaround this season than we do. Columbus is directly above us, and if they get healthy they are a top 16 team. So I'd say it's not as far-fetched as we might imagine it to be. Carolina, Buffalo, and maybe Edmonton (though they are playing surprisingly well lately) are below us imo. Maybe playing vets is Maloney's way of disguising the tank. There is no way in hell they can't think that McDavid or Eichel immediately turn around the franchise. The worst thing that could happen is that we end up picking another D-man early because they are best available. I'd hate for us to pick 4 or 5 and end up with Hanifin instead of Barzal or Strome.
Where as last year we had some players over performing early this year it's the opposite. Smith and OEL will probably not be this bad for long. I suppose if that does continue longer for some reason being that bad is possible. But that opens up a whole new host of issues.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colony_collapse_disorder
System team without the system... McEichel territory. That's a good thing.
Matias Maccete
Chopping up defenses
- Sep 21, 2014
- 9,692
- 3,605
If we don't improve dramatically, which I don't see happening without a trade or coaching change, I only see buffalo florida and carolina below us. In all honesty we could get worse too.
_Del_
Registered User
- Jul 4, 2003
- 15,426
- 6,738
This team is a lost cause. Playing rookies will not solve our problems. We are a below average team no matter how you slice it. Do you think this club still has a shot at the playoffs? Do you think this roster as constructed is going to substantially improve? Because I dont. I watched the last 70 or so games, and I havent seen much to be excited about.
Playing the kids is not about solving this year. I hardly think they'd do any worse, but they arent going to carry us to the Cup. Playing the kids and letting them adjust now lets us see what we have in them. It also gives them the opportunity to improve. I think part of the problem is that the young players aren't any more comfortable with DT than he is with them. They know that with the first mistake, they're going to ride the pine. That shows up as hesitation on the ice, and they're already trying to adjust to the speed of the NHL game. Hodgman just played a great game, scored a goal and then hit the bench for Chip and Crombeen. That'll help him find his comfort zone, I'm sure. They need to be able to play through their mistakes. This season is a lost cause. Sorry, but it is. Let's look toward next year. Should we resign X, Y, Z? Or will young players A,B, C be able to step up? We won't know until we see what we have this year. We already know what we have in Klink, Chip, Moss and Crombeen... and it's not that great.
IPreferPi
A Nonny Mouse
I can buy Smitty and OEL rebounding. But that basically gets us back to the same team last season circa March. The same one that had a playoff spot and then proceeded to lose it with uninspired play and non-existent offense.
I agree. But I think that's just enough to make us the Canucks or Jets of last season. Not Buffalo-Florida-Edmonton bad. 11th-12th or so in the conference instead of 9th.
rt
The Kinder, Gentler Version
Playing rookies too early can and will screw up their development. That will not show us what we have because it would be next to impossible to evaluate them. Because you have talent, does not make it ok to play through mistakes, that is BS. They are ready when they are ready.
The NHL is a game of mistakes. Us, of all teams without talent, has to limit mistakes, if we want to win. WG played all the young guys, and what did that get us? Not any wins, and likely slowed development.
Some of you might think this season is a lost cause now, I don't. I think we can still make the playoffs. I say that because Smith has started to turn it around, in spite of last nights game, in which goals were not his fault. The problems we have are turnovers and missed assignments. That is fixable and it does not require more skill. I would like more skill, we need it for sure, and I hope shiny AHL toys deliver at some point, but that is not the problem.
The team looks poorly coached at the moment and that is on Tip and his staff. I think he needs to fix it or change out the roster a little. We shall see what happens tomorrow night and this weekend but I think this is fixable, at least our current problems, which are hockey 101 problems.
IPreferPi
A Nonny Mouse
The difference though is that last season we were one of the hottest teams out of the gate, scoring at will and a slew of 3rd period/OT wins despite crap defense for the first 2 months. That hot start probably inflated our final finish by like 3-4 spots, if not more. We're obviously not having the same start this time around. Polar opposite, in fact.
_Del_
Registered User
- Jul 4, 2003
- 15,426
- 6,738
You oughta talk to Babcock about that.
Smith has started to turn it around?
That isn't fixable with this roster. Our bottom six guys have had 70 games over two seasons to turn it around. If they haven't done it yet, they aren't going to. McMillan is the only one from last year that looks worth keeping. How would you suggest Tip changes out the roster, exactly, without playing any of the young players you are so sure aren't ready? Bolduc? Maybe bring back Kennedy? Are we a better team with Bolduc instead of Chip or Crombeen? Maybe, but I think the problems run a little deeper than that.
I recall reading a fancy stats analysis somewhere on sbnation (either the preds or kings section, good reads) that said the Coyotes were shooting at a historically high percentage, and all at the same time. So you get a hot start off of that. Then everyone came back down to earth. How the team played the last 40 games and these first few games is what they are. A **** team.
But some posters here will have you believe the playoffs are realistic when you're 30th in GAA with zero flexibility to make moves.
CC96
Serious Offender
We suck and have no chance at making the playoffs. Ditch the old broken pieces of crap in the bottom-six. "BUT ZOMMGG!!11!1 playing the kids will make things even worse!!1!1" If it does? Good.
This season is already shot, so let's get the kids some experience so ease them into the NHL, and tank for a higher draft pick. Getting a lottery pick one season, is not a death sentence to turn into the Edmonton Oilers in this salary-cap era. Tampa went from picking 3rd. overall one year, to collecting 101 points with 8 rookies in the line-up the next year. Colorado went from picking 1st. overall to winning their division and collecting 112 points the very next season. We have lots of cap-space next year, and some quality prospects in the pipeline. Through wise spending and an injection of youth, we could be back to the playoffs in just a year or two, if and only if we give our youth an actual chance to play.
The Conference Finals team is long gone, and we need to start moving in a new direction.
This season is already shot, so let's get the kids some experience so ease them into the NHL, and tank for a higher draft pick. Getting a lottery pick one season, is not a death sentence to turn into the Edmonton Oilers in this salary-cap era. Tampa went from picking 3rd. overall one year, to collecting 101 points with 8 rookies in the line-up the next year. Colorado went from picking 1st. overall to winning their division and collecting 112 points the very next season. We have lots of cap-space next year, and some quality prospects in the pipeline. Through wise spending and an injection of youth, we could be back to the playoffs in just a year or two, if and only if we give our youth an actual chance to play.
The Conference Finals team is long gone, and we need to start moving in a new direction.
Last edited:
Matias Maccete
Chopping up defenses
- Sep 21, 2014
- 9,692
- 3,605
You oughta talk to Babcock about that.
Smith has started to turn it around?
How would you suggest Tip changes out the roster, exactly, without playing any of the young players you are so sure aren't ready? Bolduc? Maybe bring back Kennedy? Are we a better team with Bolduc instead of Chip or Crombeen? Maybe, but I think the problems run a little deeper than that.
I think Tip will be forced to play some younger players because of injuries and now likely the poor play. The poor play part is tough right now because in my opinion, Vermette, OEL, and Z, to name 3 vets, are not playing well. Z has already been demoted to the third pairing. Korpi has had some costly turnovers too. Smith played poorly early but was not the problem last night.
If Smith/Z/Korpi/OEL/Vermette all play below the level they should play at, we are in deep trouble. Which one of them do you want to scratch? The reason we are losing is not Klink/Chip/Moss/Crombeen/McMillan, but if that was the reason we suck, then replacing them with Lessio/Reider/Gormley could help us.
Stone/Doan/Erat/Gagner have been fine and Yandle is all world except for 1 turnover this year.
The same thing happened in a way last year when Klesla/DMO/Ribs were under performing vets. It is not the border line guys that are the problem, it is the vets we count on, our leaders, mentioned above.
Vinny Boombatz
formerly ctwin22
Yes, some of the vets are playing bad, but YES, part of the problem is the fact that Chip/Klink/Crombeen/McMillan/Korpi stink.
Other groups have figured it out if you can run 4 lines that can score or at least contribute, it is better for your club, that way the "VETS" or the guys that do most of the heavy lifting all year don't have to do it "all year, every game" We've become a 1.5 line team. Unless that line does well, we have trouble scoring and that is why we're 28th in the league 5on5.
At some point, players that have shown the ability to put the puck in the net i.e. Rieder/Lessio/Hodgman need to start getting opportunities, and not 8 min a game opportunities either, legitimate 12-14 mins.
If after 30 games, they show that they're not improving or they're not putting the puck into the back of the net, well then GMDM is now in trouble, but at least he knows what he needs to do. We already know that Chip/Klink/Crombeen/McMillan can't score, they've played enough games to prove it. It's time to move on.
_Del_
Registered User
- Jul 4, 2003
- 15,426
- 6,738
Disagree. A large part of reason we suck is because Klink, Chip, and Moss are playing -- not in fourth line roles where they would be fine, and I would not mind -- but in the top nine and specifically in the top six.
Some of our core players have started out poorly, too. And there is plenty of blame to go around in this mess, but having Chipchura or Klink or Moss playing on the second line, is a large part of the reason "we suck."
I'm not even sure we can evaluate Z, Korpi, and Vermette properly because this team seems to realize how bad it is and has given up. If they don't have hope, then I'm out of it too. I'm all for trading our UFA's and opening up a spot for a younger player to get a try out.
I'll believe the youth movement when Maloney actually forces Tipp to play the younger guys and not put Chipchura on the third line while scratching Hodgman. It's time to cut bait with the guys we know can't do it. I don't care if Tippett says he's seen them do it before. They clearly can't get back to that level, and that's over the course of 70 games, not just this season. Until Tippett comes to his senses, or Maloney forces his hand, it's just words. Chipchura or Moss could skate from center ice past our defensemen and score on a bewildered Smith, and they would still be in the next game. There is no accountability in this org. All the talk about helping coming "from inside the room" just highlights that. "These are our guys. We have to be better". Try something new. 70 games of uninspired, sloppy hockey does not instilling confidence that help is coming from inside that room.
I just read the article at AZ Central with quotes below from Tip. Core players not playing well is the biggest problem right now, and he is not talking about Klink/Chip/Moss. Scoring and rookies won't help this problem. Tip comments below.
Criticism, at one point or another, has been directed at all three areas (goaltending, defense and offense), so the on-ice leaders — identified by Tippett as goalie Mike Smith, defensemen Oliver Ekman-Larsson and Keith Yandle, and forwards Antoine Vermette, Mikkel Boedker, Martin Hanzal and captain Shane Doan — have the power to instigate change in all.
"If they can go out and lead the charge, that's what will help our group because everybody just falls into their roles after that," Tippett said. "But those core players, those top players, have to form the identity and the work ethic that we want to play with."
Criticism, at one point or another, has been directed at all three areas (goaltending, defense and offense), so the on-ice leaders — identified by Tippett as goalie Mike Smith, defensemen Oliver Ekman-Larsson and Keith Yandle, and forwards Antoine Vermette, Mikkel Boedker, Martin Hanzal and captain Shane Doan — have the power to instigate change in all.
"If they can go out and lead the charge, that's what will help our group because everybody just falls into their roles after that," Tippett said. "But those core players, those top players, have to form the identity and the work ethic that we want to play with."
