GDT: Game 60: Arizona at Ottawa | 5:30 PM AZ Time | Intimidate with SPEED

Discussion in 'Arizona Coyotes' started by moosemeister, Feb 13, 2020.

  1. We're aware of an issue with double posting and people are working to fix it. Here's how to avoid it: AFTER YOU HIT THE REPLY/POST BUTTON AND THE TIMER BAND ON THE TOP RIGHT STOPS, ASSUME IT POSTED. DO NOT HIT THE REPLY BUTTON AGAIN. Reload the page and your post will be there. If you are worried about losing the post content, copy it first.
    Dismiss Notice
  1. moosemeister

    moosemeister Registered User

    Joined:
    Feb 15, 2010
    Messages:
    6,124
    Likes Received:
    3,988
    Trophy Points:
    156
    SB Cash:
    $ 1,200,000
    Location:
    Gilbert, Arizona
    Just listed the rest of my seats for the remainder of the year. f*** this team
     
    DoanStopBelievin likes this.
  2. Surfshop

    Surfshop Registered User

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2019
    Messages:
    209
    Likes Received:
    113
    Trophy Points:
    33
    SB Cash:
    $ 1,200,000
    Gender:
    Male
    You know who else is a waste of cap and TOI? Pretty much everyone else on our team except for Garland / Hall / Chych / Kuemps, maybe Raanta or DVo depending how you view things.

    You trade Kessel nothing happens (if you can even trade him, he's paid a lot relative to current production). You fire the coach? Maybe these players are no longer a waste of cap. Worth a shot at least
     
  3. DoanStopBelievin

    DoanStopBelievin Registered User

    Joined:
    Oct 6, 2017
    Messages:
    501
    Likes Received:
    549
    Trophy Points:
    64
    SB Cash:
    $ 1,200,000
    Gender:
    Male
    Can we fire Tocchet AND get rid of the players?!
     
    _Del_ likes this.
  4. XX

    XX Sticky Icky Icky

    Joined:
    Dec 10, 2002
    Messages:
    48,498
    Likes Received:
    6,026
    Trophy Points:
    231
    SB Cash:
    $ 1,200,000
    Location:
    PHX
    Schmaltz is doing fine and making about market rate. Keller can still get better. Still, neither of them is producing less than two one-eyed players:

    [​IMG]

    Brad Richardson has no legs and starts in the defensive zone 75% of the time just to put those numbers into perspective. The "driving a line like Kane" guy can't even outproduce his crappy linemates you keep blaming for his struggles.

    Call a spade a spade. Kessel is a boat anchor that has to be heavily sheltered for no return.
     
  5. ducky

    ducky Registered User

    Joined:
    Apr 12, 2002
    Messages:
    10,393
    Likes Received:
    2,704
    Trophy Points:
    231
    SB Cash:
    $ 1,200,000
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Renewable energy
    Location:
    The Kootenays
    That one is a bit of a nail in the coffin. Time to get the tank thread rolling? :(
     
  6. rt

    rt Registered User

    Joined:
    May 13, 2004
    Messages:
    69,282
    Likes Received:
    12,806
    Trophy Points:
    231
    SB Cash:
    $ 1,200,000
    Location:
    County Cork
    I watched. It was bad. Disgusting and pathetic. They were asleep to start and didn’t wake up until six minutes into the second. Then they played pretty good, or at least with some gusto for a while. They closed out the game in such an infuriatingly apathetic way.

    It perfectly encapsulated the distilled spirit of Alex Goligoski as a player. His very DNA, the matter of the man was out on full display. What he did with the puck, with the goalie pulled and the game on the line was the most indifferent thing I’ve ever seen in a hockey game. This guy gives less shits than anyone I’ve ever seen.

    Oh and Kessel can’t hit the net and gets winded 10 seconds into every shift.
     
  7. rt

    rt Registered User

    Joined:
    May 13, 2004
    Messages:
    69,282
    Likes Received:
    12,806
    Trophy Points:
    231
    SB Cash:
    $ 1,200,000
    Location:
    County Cork
    That’s right. It was the nail in the coffin loss tonight. Absolute disgrace. This team is a disgrace.
     
    moosemeister likes this.
  8. rt

    rt Registered User

    Joined:
    May 13, 2004
    Messages:
    69,282
    Likes Received:
    12,806
    Trophy Points:
    231
    SB Cash:
    $ 1,200,000
    Location:
    County Cork
    There you go. Good coaches. Great staff.
     
    Jakey53 likes this.
  9. ducky

    ducky Registered User

    Joined:
    Apr 12, 2002
    Messages:
    10,393
    Likes Received:
    2,704
    Trophy Points:
    231
    SB Cash:
    $ 1,200,000
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Renewable energy
    Location:
    The Kootenays
    Hard to believe losing the goalie (albeit a great goalie) meant this much to the team. Scoring was supposed to be the problem. Het Hall = more scoring = wins, right?

    I know your are a big advocate for signing Hall but I think chances are verrrrry thin. I would trade him to someone for a 1st and a good prospect. Or a really good C prospect. How about Hall to Colorado for Newhook?
     
  10. rt

    rt Registered User

    Joined:
    May 13, 2004
    Messages:
    69,282
    Likes Received:
    12,806
    Trophy Points:
    231
    SB Cash:
    $ 1,200,000
    Location:
    County Cork
    I like Hall better than I like the Coyotes. But yeah, this team is NOT making the playoffs and he’s not saying with ANY team that fails to make the playoffs. So it would be dumb not to trade him.

    Hall for Newhook works great for me. Can we add OEL and Byram to the deal? Then move Kessel, Stepan, Goligoski and Raanta each for 7th round picks. Really try to get that lottery protection to kick in on our 2020 1st?
     
    ducky likes this.
  11. Surfshop

    Surfshop Registered User

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2019
    Messages:
    209
    Likes Received:
    113
    Trophy Points:
    33
    SB Cash:
    $ 1,200,000
    Gender:
    Male
    why don't you enclose the link instead of copy / pasting? At this point I think you might be actively trolling.

    Here is a link from Corsica hockey (lurkers / other posters etc) that XX didn't include:
    NHL Player Stats - Corsica Hockey

    As you can see, Kessel has ~1 P/60 at 5v5 (I think that's the table XX copied above). But, if you take total P/60 incl all situations, he's at 1.83 which is still bad but #7 on the team (not including Jordan Gross).

    Regardless both stats are irrelevant -- we've already agreed Kessel hasn't been producing offense at 5v5 -- not sure what you're trying to show by including the above table. Maybe if Kessel had better ES linemates he'd have more than 1 point per 60 at ES. That's a coaching decision.

    As I said above, Kessel can not drive a line at ES at this stage so why are we not upset at Tocc for continuing to expect him to. I do not think (at all) that Kessel is able to drive a line by himself. That should have obvious from my last post when I bolded the takeaway

    P.S. Just poked around corsicahockey (link above), turns out both Kessel and Step have positive relative Corsi For at ES (incidentally both are higher than Taylor Hall's) which makes absolutely no sense and can show the limitations of blindly accepting fancy stats. Next time include the link, we're all trying to get smarter here
     
  12. XX

    XX Sticky Icky Icky

    Joined:
    Dec 10, 2002
    Messages:
    48,498
    Likes Received:
    6,026
    Trophy Points:
    231
    SB Cash:
    $ 1,200,000
    Location:
    PHX
    It's from Naturalstattrick and anyone interested in that data knows where to find it. I've given it to you several times now.

    You don't measure production in 'all situations' because opportunities are not evenly distributed. This includes "even strength" which includes 3 on 3 OT, which is not really relevant to how well a player is playing vs the rest of the team, because not all players receive the same OT opportunities (obviously). The same goes for the PP.

    5v5, he's below one point per 60 and the worst forward on the team. Strike one.

    Kessel has not turned the PP into a weapon for the team or been particularly good, even by your own admission, so him moving up to 7th (now above players that receive almost no PP time) in p/60 tells us nothing. Of the players that have seen 100 minutes or more PP time this year, Phil is dead last in on ice GF/60, significantly worse than guys like Soderbeg, Stepan, and Garland. So, of the regular PP players, the PP is at its worst with Phil on the ice. Strike two.

    Earlier:
    Your argument continues to be that he is dragged down by his bad linemates. I am showing that is complete nonsense, as he isn't even outproducing said bad linemates. If your argument was true, you'd expect him to, at a minimum, score at a rate greater than defensive specialists and 'bad' linemates. He hasn't, because he is terrible. His 5v5 time actually includes time with the 'good' players too, making his numbers even sadder. Strike three.

    You then invoked "well actually everyone is terrible!" which is also not true, as the table shows. Kessel is the only player that cannot take defensive zone faceoffs AND can't face good competition AND is producing so little, so he has to sit on the third line. That's exactly how he has been used the entire year. It's the lowest place he can go that isn't the press box, as the 4th line is used to take defensive zone faceoffs.

    Kessel is what he is, you're just not willing to admit it.

    Is the link going to teach you how to understand the fundamentals of how players are deployed? This continues to be beyond you.
     
  13. Surfshop

    Surfshop Registered User

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2019
    Messages:
    209
    Likes Received:
    113
    Trophy Points:
    33
    SB Cash:
    $ 1,200,000
    Gender:
    Male
    You're kidding right? Apparently not. I guess I'll quote prior arguments. Would encourage you to read them next time.

    That's both of your first two strikes if I understand you correctly. Good job understanding a nuanced argument (that's sarcasm in case you're confused)

    Yes. That's true. 1 out of 3 ain't bad? I think that was a saying at one point (more sarcasm)

    Actually I have admitted it. That's not what I've been talking about for this thread at least. Let me spell it out for you:

    1) You think Kessel is bad this year
    2) I think Kessel is bad this year
    3) I think part of the reason Kessel is bad this year is Tocchet has screwed up his usage (e.g. playing for most of the year with Crouse and Soda/Step and soaking up minutes on the point during the power play)
    4) In another thread, you have said that you think Tocchet is a bad coach for a number of reasons incl in-game adjustment. Lines are an in-game adjustment and leaving Kessel on the PP point all year (among other things) is the definition of a lack of adjusting

    5) So, Tocchet is a bad coach

    Lmk if you have any questions or need further clarification
     
  14. LosPollosHermanos

    LosPollosHermanos Registered User

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 2020
    Messages:
    81
    Likes Received:
    84
    Trophy Points:
    13
    SB Cash:
    $ 500,000
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Phoenix, AZ
    That was sad.

    So when does Clayton Keller turn into that Patrick Kane dude...I was told he would..
     
  15. XX

    XX Sticky Icky Icky

    Joined:
    Dec 10, 2002
    Messages:
    48,498
    Likes Received:
    6,026
    Trophy Points:
    231
    SB Cash:
    $ 1,200,000
    Location:
    PHX
    First off, Kessel has spent most of the year on the left boards in a 1-3-1, not the point. So let's drop that. He hasn't delivered on the PP despite being fed prime minutes with the top unit all year in the spot that is his strength. I showed this with numbers. The PP is at its worst with him on the ice.

    Second, it would be more accurate to say that your argument isn't actually that Kessel is bad, but that he has been misused. I disagree wholeheartedly and I showed why, with numbers, why he hasn't earned more opportunity like you want to give him. Kessel hasn't delivered 5v5, he hasn't outscored or outplayed much 'weaker' teammates, and he hasn't helped the PP.

    "Ignore all that, play Kessel on the 1st or 2nd line just because!" is not a "nuanced" argument. It's a terrible argument that you aren't defending well.

    Again, he hasn't been on the point 'all year' and you should know this if you're a STH. There is no argument to be made that Kessel deserves to play higher up in the lineup. Collapsing all of the sheltered players onto one line should have made matchups easier tonight but Tocchet still found a way to lose.

    I think Tocchet is a bad coach because he endorsed the Kessel move. I think he's a bad coach because he won't scratch Kessel. I think he's a bad coach because he continues to feed Kessel opportunities other players deserve more, often right after Kessel does something stupid.

    I do not think Tocchet is a bad coach because he is somehow stifling Kessel's talent by refusing to play him with 'better linemates'. We are not even remotely on the same page.
     
  16. Fuhrious

    Fuhrious HFBoards Sponsor Sponsor

    Joined:
    Feb 3, 2004
    Messages:
    266
    Likes Received:
    283
    Trophy Points:
    149
    SB Cash:
    $ 1,200,000
    Didn't get to see if, but gutted by this result. Hard to believe they've lost to LA, Anaheim and now Ottawa since the break. Really thought they'd cruise in this one after the decent showings in Toronto and Montreal. Absolutely gutted.
     
    XX likes this.
  17. Surfshop

    Surfshop Registered User

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2019
    Messages:
    209
    Likes Received:
    113
    Trophy Points:
    33
    SB Cash:
    $ 1,200,000
    Gender:
    Male
    XX, I need you to read posts in the various points before entering these point by point arguments. We all need you to do this because it'll help the discussions get that much better for not only the posters but also the lurkers.

    Here is what I said, in this thread, before any of the comments we've been writing each other tonight (it's message #187)

    SR understood this in his reply that came right after my post (message #188) which was right before you decided to revisit this old discussion / argument / whatever you want to call it. Would have been better for everyone if you had understood this too.

    In all seriousness, my argument about Tocchet is more than just Kessel. For me, RT should be fired for many reasons, including not being able to get his best players to play like his best players. Re: Kessel, maybe you scratch him, maybe you give him additional ice time with skilled forwards (which is what RT is trying now), maybe you adjust your offensive schemes, who knows. But whatever RT is doing with Kessel and the rest of our forwards is not working, some part of that blame has to fall on the head coach.

    There are other reasons too (some of which you mentioned, we've thrown this around at length in the fire Tocchet thread). But not getting the best out of his players incl Kessel, Keller, Schmaltz etc is a big, big deal and could easily cost us a playoff spot.

    But again...

    Screaming baby. I'll pop by again when I can. Next time would ask you to read and understand what I say before responding
     
  18. XX

    XX Sticky Icky Icky

    Joined:
    Dec 10, 2002
    Messages:
    48,498
    Likes Received:
    6,026
    Trophy Points:
    231
    SB Cash:
    $ 1,200,000
    Location:
    PHX
    This is actually what you said, with the full context:

    I responded, then you responded with posts back and forth with your argument, none of which were exclusively about Tocchet. Now you're attempting to claim that no, you didn't actually make an argument about Kessel, his numbers, and deployment or attempt to refute what I was stating.

    I need you to keep discussions you have no intention of having in good faith to yourself. I need you to keep things simple and clear, rather than engaging in a back and forth, if you have no intention of standing by why you say. I need you to not engage if you plan on wasting my time.
     
  19. Surfshop

    Surfshop Registered User

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2019
    Messages:
    209
    Likes Received:
    113
    Trophy Points:
    33
    SB Cash:
    $ 1,200,000
    Gender:
    Male
    what are you even talking about? Obviously we have been talking about Kessel and his numbers / deployment etc. More confused now than ever, not sure how or why you got the impression I was denying that
     
  20. XX

    XX Sticky Icky Icky

    Joined:
    Dec 10, 2002
    Messages:
    48,498
    Likes Received:
    6,026
    Trophy Points:
    231
    SB Cash:
    $ 1,200,000
    Location:
    PHX
    You think Kessel should get better linemates and more opportunity. I think he should be sent home to seek a trade via his agent. I don't think there's a way to be further apart on a player.
     
  21. Surfshop

    Surfshop Registered User

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2019
    Messages:
    209
    Likes Received:
    113
    Trophy Points:
    33
    SB Cash:
    $ 1,200,000
    Gender:
    Male
    Yes, what you said is accurate for the most part (I would say better opportunity rather than more opportunity, he already sees plenty / too much ice time).

    Are we done here? Again though as you can see from the message you copied / pasted on your own response, my bigger points were about RT.
     
  22. Jakey53

    Jakey53 Registered User

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2011
    Messages:
    18,858
    Likes Received:
    2,726
    Trophy Points:
    156
    SB Cash:
    $ 1,200,000
    Gogo I think has been quite consistent this year, and I mean that in a good way, but man, when he makes a mistake they are big one's.
     
  23. Jakey53

    Jakey53 Registered User

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2011
    Messages:
    18,858
    Likes Received:
    2,726
    Trophy Points:
    156
    SB Cash:
    $ 1,200,000
    One of the kids make a mistake they ride the pine or demoted, but one of RT's fav's do the same they get more TOI.
     
  24. Jakey53

    Jakey53 Registered User

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2011
    Messages:
    18,858
    Likes Received:
    2,726
    Trophy Points:
    156
    SB Cash:
    $ 1,200,000
    This team has lost their direction, and no one knows how to right the ship.
     
    ducky likes this.
  25. Jakey53

    Jakey53 Registered User

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2011
    Messages:
    18,858
    Likes Received:
    2,726
    Trophy Points:
    156
    SB Cash:
    $ 1,200,000
    Can't wait till RT goes back to his fav's and gives Kessel and Stepan first line minutes again. You know it's going to happen.
     

Share This Page

  1. This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
    By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.
    Dismiss Notice
monitoring_string = "358c248ada348a047a4b9bb27a146148"