GDT: Game 60: Arizona at Ottawa | 5:30 PM AZ Time | Intimidate with SPEED

PainForShane

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Dec 24, 2019
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Tocchet keeps him on the 3rd line because he cannot handle better competition and better defenders at ES. He hasn't contributed to a line when moved up consistently. This is why he was quickly shuffled out of the top 6 to start the year, given a look with Hall, and then moved back down. It has nothing to do with 'spreading the offense around'. It's more about containing the contagion that is Phil Kessel at ES by putting him with the least important players. Moving up Phil is not a net gain.

Kessel is still receiving sheltered zone starts at ES but does nothing with it.

He's a waste of cap and TOI. His P/60 is now below 1 and still only ahead of Richardson and Fischer, guys who start in the defensive zone about 75% of the time.

You keep creating a narrative where Phil is not the one responsible for his poor play. No, it's always due to something else, despite the fact they've tried Phil in basically every line/situation possible.

You know who else is a waste of cap and TOI? Pretty much everyone else on our team except for Garland / Hall / Chych / Kuemps, maybe Raanta or DVo depending how you view things.

You trade Kessel nothing happens (if you can even trade him, he's paid a lot relative to current production). You fire the coach? Maybe these players are no longer a waste of cap. Worth a shot at least
 

DoanStopBelievin

Registered User
Oct 6, 2017
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You know who else is a waste of cap and TOI? Pretty much everyone else on our team except for Garland / Hall / Chych / Kuemps, maybe Raanta or DVo depending how you view things.

You trade Kessel nothing happens (if you can even trade him, he's paid a lot relative to current production). You fire the coach? Maybe these players are no longer a waste of cap. Worth a shot at least
Can we fire Tocchet AND get rid of the players?!
 
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XX

Waiting for Ishbia
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You know who else is a waste of cap and TOI? Pretty much everyone else on our team except for Garland / Hall / Chych / Kuemps, maybe Raanta or DVo depending how you view things.

Schmaltz is doing fine and making about market rate. Keller can still get better. Still, neither of them is producing less than two one-eyed players:

2A1G5UG.jpg


Brad Richardson has no legs and starts in the defensive zone 75% of the time just to put those numbers into perspective. The "driving a line like Kane" guy can't even outproduce his crappy linemates you keep blaming for his struggles.

Call a spade a spade. Kessel is a boat anchor that has to be heavily sheltered for no return.
 

Heldig

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That one is a bit of a nail in the coffin. Time to get the tank thread rolling? :(
 

rt

The Kinder, Gentler Version
May 13, 2004
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Didn't watch, so I don't really belong in a GDT. Here's what's going to happen. The team will win just enough games to make management think they have a shot at the playoffs. They won't move Hall at the trade deadline, thereby recouping zero assets that they lost. Then Hall won't sign here when they don't make the playoffs. At least he was fun to watch here for a while.
I watched. It was bad. Disgusting and pathetic. They were asleep to start and didn’t wake up until six minutes into the second. Then they played pretty good, or at least with some gusto for a while. They closed out the game in such an infuriatingly apathetic way.

It perfectly encapsulated the distilled spirit of Alex Goligoski as a player. His very DNA, the matter of the man was out on full display. What he did with the puck, with the goalie pulled and the game on the line was the most indifferent thing I’ve ever seen in a hockey game. This guy gives less shits than anyone I’ve ever seen.

Oh and Kessel can’t hit the net and gets winded 10 seconds into every shift.
 

Heldig

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That’s right. It was the nail in the coffin loss tonight. Absolute disgrace. This team is a disgrace.
Hard to believe losing the goalie (albeit a great goalie) meant this much to the team. Scoring was supposed to be the problem. Het Hall = more scoring = wins, right?

I know your are a big advocate for signing Hall but I think chances are verrrrry thin. I would trade him to someone for a 1st and a good prospect. Or a really good C prospect. How about Hall to Colorado for Newhook?
 

rt

The Kinder, Gentler Version
May 13, 2004
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Hard to believe losing the goalie (albeit a great goalie) meant this much to the team. Scoring was supposed to be the problem. Het Hall = more scoring = wins, right?

I know your are a big advocate for signing Hall but I think chances are verrrrry thin. I would trade him to someone for a 1st and a good prospect. Or a really good C prospect. How about Hall to Colorado for Newhook?
I like Hall better than I like the Coyotes. But yeah, this team is NOT making the playoffs and he’s not saying with ANY team that fails to make the playoffs. So it would be dumb not to trade him.

Hall for Newhook works great for me. Can we add OEL and Byram to the deal? Then move Kessel, Stepan, Goligoski and Raanta each for 7th round picks. Really try to get that lottery protection to kick in on our 2020 1st?
 
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PainForShane

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Schmaltz is doing fine and making about market rate. Keller can still get better. Still, neither of them is producing less than two one-eyed players:

2A1G5UG.jpg


Brad Richardson has no legs and starts in the defensive zone 75% of the time just to put those numbers into perspective. The "driving a line like Kane" guy can't even outproduce his crappy linemates you keep blaming for his struggles.

Call a spade a spade. Kessel is a boat anchor that has to be heavily sheltered for no return.

why don't you enclose the link instead of copy / pasting? At this point I think you might be actively trolling.

Here is a link from Corsica hockey (lurkers / other posters etc) that XX didn't include:
NHL Player Stats - Corsica Hockey

As you can see, Kessel has ~1 P/60 at 5v5 (I think that's the table XX copied above). But, if you take total P/60 incl all situations, he's at 1.83 which is still bad but #7 on the team (not including Jordan Gross).

Regardless both stats are irrelevant -- we've already agreed Kessel hasn't been producing offense at 5v5 -- not sure what you're trying to show by including the above table. Maybe if Kessel had better ES linemates he'd have more than 1 point per 60 at ES. That's a coaching decision.

As I said above, Kessel can not drive a line at ES at this stage so why are we not upset at Tocc for continuing to expect him to. I do not think (at all) that Kessel is able to drive a line by himself. That should have obvious from my last post when I bolded the takeaway

P.S. Just poked around corsicahockey (link above), turns out both Kessel and Step have positive relative Corsi For at ES (incidentally both are higher than Taylor Hall's) which makes absolutely no sense and can show the limitations of blindly accepting fancy stats. Next time include the link, we're all trying to get smarter here
 

XX

Waiting for Ishbia
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why don't you enclose the link instead of copy / pasting? At this point I think you might be actively trolling.

It's from Naturalstattrick and anyone interested in that data knows where to find it. I've given it to you several times now.

As you can see, Kessel has ~1 P/60 at 5v5 (I think that's the table XX copied above). But, if you take total P/60 incl all situations, he's at 1.83 which is still bad but #7 on the team (not including Jordan Gross).

You don't measure production in 'all situations' because opportunities are not evenly distributed. This includes "even strength" which includes 3 on 3 OT, which is not really relevant to how well a player is playing vs the rest of the team, because not all players receive the same OT opportunities (obviously). The same goes for the PP.

5v5, he's below one point per 60 and the worst forward on the team. Strike one.

Kessel has not turned the PP into a weapon for the team or been particularly good, even by your own admission, so him moving up to 7th (now above players that receive almost no PP time) in p/60 tells us nothing. Of the players that have seen 100 minutes or more PP time this year, Phil is dead last in on ice GF/60, significantly worse than guys like Soderbeg, Stepan, and Garland. So, of the regular PP players, the PP is at its worst with Phil on the ice. Strike two.

Regardless both stats are irrelevant -- we've already agreed Kessel hasn't been producing offense at 5v5 -- not sure what you're trying to show by including the above table. Maybe if Kessel had better ES linemates he'd have more than 1 point per 60 at ES. That's a coaching decision.

Earlier:
But yeah, Kessel's has had a down year because... 1) his ES linemates haven't been able to get open against top 4 NHL defensemen

Your argument continues to be that he is dragged down by his bad linemates. I am showing that is complete nonsense, as he isn't even outproducing said bad linemates. If your argument was true, you'd expect him to, at a minimum, score at a rate greater than defensive specialists and 'bad' linemates. He hasn't, because he is terrible. His 5v5 time actually includes time with the 'good' players too, making his numbers even sadder. Strike three.

You then invoked "well actually everyone is terrible!" which is also not true, as the table shows. Kessel is the only player that cannot take defensive zone faceoffs AND can't face good competition AND is producing so little, so he has to sit on the third line. That's exactly how he has been used the entire year. It's the lowest place he can go that isn't the press box, as the 4th line is used to take defensive zone faceoffs.

Kessel is what he is, you're just not willing to admit it.

Next time include the link, we're all trying to get smarter here

Is the link going to teach you how to understand the fundamentals of how players are deployed? This continues to be beyond you.
 

PainForShane

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You're kidding right? Apparently not. I guess I'll quote prior arguments. Would encourage you to read them next time.

Regardless both stats are irrelevant -- we've already agreed Kessel hasn't been producing offense at 5v5

Kessel is awful on the point on the PP.

That's both of your first two strikes if I understand you correctly. Good job understanding a nuanced argument (that's sarcasm in case you're confused)

Your argument continues to be that he is dragged down by his bad linemates.

Yes. That's true. 1 out of 3 ain't bad? I think that was a saying at one point (more sarcasm)

Kessel is what he is, you're just not willing to admit it.

Actually I have admitted it. That's not what I've been talking about for this thread at least. Let me spell it out for you:

1) You think Kessel is bad this year
2) I think Kessel is bad this year
3) I think part of the reason Kessel is bad this year is Tocchet has screwed up his usage (e.g. playing for most of the year with Crouse and Soda/Step and soaking up minutes on the point during the power play)
4) In another thread, you have said that you think Tocchet is a bad coach for a number of reasons incl in-game adjustment. Lines are an in-game adjustment and leaving Kessel on the PP point all year (among other things) is the definition of a lack of adjusting

5) So, Tocchet is a bad coach

Lmk if you have any questions or need further clarification
 

XX

Waiting for Ishbia
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2) I think Kessel is bad this year
3) I think part of the reason Kessel is bad this year is Tocchet has screwed up his usage (e.g. playing for most of the year with Crouse and Soda/Step and soaking up minutes on the point during the power play)

First off, Kessel has spent most of the year on the left boards in a 1-3-1, not the point. So let's drop that. He hasn't delivered on the PP despite being fed prime minutes with the top unit all year in the spot that is his strength. I showed this with numbers. The PP is at its worst with him on the ice.

Second, it would be more accurate to say that your argument isn't actually that Kessel is bad, but that he has been misused. I disagree wholeheartedly and I showed why, with numbers, why he hasn't earned more opportunity like you want to give him. Kessel hasn't delivered 5v5, he hasn't outscored or outplayed much 'weaker' teammates, and he hasn't helped the PP.

"Ignore all that, play Kessel on the 1st or 2nd line just because!" is not a "nuanced" argument. It's a terrible argument that you aren't defending well.

4) In another thread, you have said that you think Tocchet is a bad coach for a number of reasons incl in-game adjustment. Lines are an in-game adjustment and leaving Kessel on the PP point all year (among other things) is the definition of a lack of adjusting

Again, he hasn't been on the point 'all year' and you should know this if you're a STH. There is no argument to be made that Kessel deserves to play higher up in the lineup. Collapsing all of the sheltered players onto one line should have made matchups easier tonight but Tocchet still found a way to lose.

I think Tocchet is a bad coach because he endorsed the Kessel move. I think he's a bad coach because he won't scratch Kessel. I think he's a bad coach because he continues to feed Kessel opportunities other players deserve more, often right after Kessel does something stupid.

I do not think Tocchet is a bad coach because he is somehow stifling Kessel's talent by refusing to play him with 'better linemates'. We are not even remotely on the same page.
 

Fuhrious

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Feb 3, 2004
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Didn't get to see if, but gutted by this result. Hard to believe they've lost to LA, Anaheim and now Ottawa since the break. Really thought they'd cruise in this one after the decent showings in Toronto and Montreal. Absolutely gutted.
 
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PainForShane

formerly surfshop
Dec 24, 2019
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XX, I need you to read posts in the various points before entering these point by point arguments. We all need you to do this because it'll help the discussions get that much better for not only the posters but also the lurkers.

Here is what I said, in this thread, before any of the comments we've been writing each other tonight (it's message #187)

Nah... I'm not really trying to defend Kessel. Well, maybe I am a little bit. Mostly I'm attacking Tocchet.

SR understood this in his reply that came right after my post (message #188) which was right before you decided to revisit this old discussion / argument / whatever you want to call it. Would have been better for everyone if you had understood this too.

In all seriousness, my argument about Tocchet is more than just Kessel. For me, RT should be fired for many reasons, including not being able to get his best players to play like his best players. Re: Kessel, maybe you scratch him, maybe you give him additional ice time with skilled forwards (which is what RT is trying now), maybe you adjust your offensive schemes, who knows. But whatever RT is doing with Kessel and the rest of our forwards is not working, some part of that blame has to fall on the head coach.

There are other reasons too (some of which you mentioned, we've thrown this around at length in the fire Tocchet thread). But not getting the best out of his players incl Kessel, Keller, Schmaltz etc is a big, big deal and could easily cost us a playoff spot.

But again...

Nah... I'm not really trying to defend Kessel. Well, maybe I am a little bit. Mostly I'm attacking Tocchet.

Screaming baby. I'll pop by again when I can. Next time would ask you to read and understand what I say before responding
 

XX

Waiting for Ishbia
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XX, I need you to read posts in the various points before entering these point by point arguments. We all need you to do this because it'll help the discussions get that much better for not only the posters but also the lurkers.

Here is what I said, in this thread, before any of the comments we've been writing each other tonight (it's message #187)

SR understood this in his reply that came right after my post (message #188) which was right before you decided to revisit this old discussion / argument / whatever you want to call it. Would have been better for everyone if you had understood this too.

This is actually what you said, with the full context:

Nah... I'm not really trying to defend Kessel. Well, maybe I am a little bit. Mostly I'm attacking Tocchet.

Re: Kessel, I'm not disagreeing he's been bad... but it's mostly because Tocchet has really f****d his usage. Watching all the home games until Feb 4, Kessel's awful at keeping the puck inside the blue line and also a turnover machine, mostly because his linemates were never open (vast majority was Crouse and Step / Soda who you can't expect to get open with top 4 NHL defenders). He also never really adjusted to the point on the PP... that said I don't know if he's ever played point on the PP before, he certainly never did in Pitt. Does anyone actually know?

Anyway last few games I've got what I wanted, namely Kessel with two guys who can supposedly play a skill game in Keller and Schmaltz. Except now they all stink together (that's probably bad coaching too) it's not just Kessel.

Anyway in my view the coaches job is to get the best players playing like the best players. As everyone has said, except for a few folks most of our players are not playing very well. And that's on the coaching more than anyone else.

I responded, then you responded with posts back and forth with your argument, none of which were exclusively about Tocchet. Now you're attempting to claim that no, you didn't actually make an argument about Kessel, his numbers, and deployment or attempt to refute what I was stating.

I need you to keep discussions you have no intention of having in good faith to yourself. I need you to keep things simple and clear, rather than engaging in a back and forth, if you have no intention of standing by why you say. I need you to not engage if you plan on wasting my time.
 

PainForShane

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Dec 24, 2019
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Now you're attempting to claim that no, you didn't actually make an argument about Kessel, his numbers, and deployment or attempt to refute what I was stating.

what are you even talking about? Obviously we have been talking about Kessel and his numbers / deployment etc. More confused now than ever, not sure how or why you got the impression I was denying that
 

XX

Waiting for Ishbia
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what are you even talking about? Obviously we have been talking about Kessel and his numbers / deployment etc. More confused now than ever, not sure how or why you got the impression I was denying that

You think Kessel should get better linemates and more opportunity. I think he should be sent home to seek a trade via his agent. I don't think there's a way to be further apart on a player.
 

PainForShane

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You think Kessel should get better linemates and more opportunity. I think he should be sent home to seek a trade via his agent. I don't think there's a way to be further apart on a player.

Yes, what you said is accurate for the most part (I would say better opportunity rather than more opportunity, he already sees plenty / too much ice time).

Are we done here? Again though as you can see from the message you copied / pasted on your own response, my bigger points were about RT.
 

Jakey53

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Aug 27, 2011
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Anyone that thinks Goligoski isn't a problem needs to watch the 1st goal against over and over again.
Gogo I think has been quite consistent this year, and I mean that in a good way, but man, when he makes a mistake they are big one's.
 

Jakey53

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Aug 27, 2011
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TSN openly talking about the need to scratch Kessel and how it hasn't been done because he's on that stupid streak
One of the kids make a mistake they ride the pine or demoted, but one of RT's fav's do the same they get more TOI.
 

Jakey53

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Aug 27, 2011
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Lose this game and kiss the playoffs good bye, imo. Yes they are "right there" except they aren't.
Making the playoffs would require actually winning some freaking games for once. Especially in games like this. Absurd effort so far and it's embarrassing.
This team has lost their direction, and no one knows how to right the ship.
 
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Jakey53

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By the same staff that is giving prime minutes to Kessel and co while yanking Garland around? Good luck with that.
Can't wait till RT goes back to his fav's and gives Kessel and Stepan first line minutes again. You know it's going to happen.
 

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