GDT: Game 51: Stars @ Coyotes - 7PM - FSAZ

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SniperHF

Rejecting Reports
Mar 9, 2007
42,739
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Phoenix
Lets just say the roster is slightly better, lets even say it is equal. Why are we on a 50 versus 70 point pace? That is a 30% decline in points. Is it coaching? I think it is. If its not coaching, we must have less talent.

So players aren't widgets right? Connor McDavid is having a worse season by the standard he set last year and in a year where scoring is up in general. His coach is the same, the cast is largely the same. Players sometimes play worse independent of other things.

Coaching can be a problem too, but it's one of many factors to consider. Roster composition, player availability (IE Transforming a whole roster in a month is hard), individual motivations and leadership, and performance variance year to year are I think bigger problems than coaching or talent at explaining why the team has dropped points pace and can't win a regulation game.

Would a partial year of Hanzal be better then Stepan? Doubt it. Then trading Smith and letting Verby walk were mistakes right?

So if we're comparing Hanzal to Stepan in the context of the team getting worse, the comparison is not a partial year of Hanzal in 2018, it's what he gave us last year. He was basically healthy last season too. When Hanzal was traded he had 26 points for us in 51GP. Right now Stepan has 51GP and has 30 points. Hardly a huge difference, especially in a year where scoring is up. I even made a whole post after the Stepan trade suggesting the offensive difference between the two isn't as great as you might think at a quick glance. But I basically agree that Stepan is better than Hanzal. But I think it's the difference between a B+ and a B-.

Smith is a good goalie sometimes and was last season, I don't think that was ever really in dispute. But at his age he's hardly the goalie of the future for a team with a young core around 21 years old. So there is a legitimate argument that the Coyotes needed to find a goalie for the future even if it's at the cost of winning games right now. I don't even think that's really the case though. Raanta's save percentage is .919 and the league average is .913. He's giving us above average tending for less money, possibly even greatly above average tending given that the .919 number is on the worst team in the league. Domingue having to play a month of games and lately Wedgewood too are problems. But in a straight swap Raanta for Smith? I think it's a push or just slight advantage for Smith but only slight. Raanta had never had health problems before either so it wouldn't be fair to say they took a risk on that.

Vrbata? I'd have kept him in the offseason and said so then, however he hasn't had a good year this season so that might not have worked out. But just comparing what he did last year to who's taking his minutes right now, Fischer has pretty solid numbers so far. The emergence of Keller, not a straight swap for Vrbata since Keller sometimes plays LW, is also helpful. Although his slowdown lately is hurting. But the team brought in some serious money players in Hjalmarsson and Demers, pretty clear upgrades on their counterparts last year to try and improve things. So the team went into the season relying on rookies to replace Vrby's production and to give them a chance to play. But the team still spent that money in the form of upgrades on the defense.

In terms of the record, it's obvious this stuff didn't work immediately. That's not really the point though. Chayka explicitly confirmed in an interview a couple months ago that the point of the Stepan and Hjalmarsson deals was to add some veteran presence to a lineup of young players to help them develop. Not jump from 70 something points to 80 something points. You can disagree with the reasoning behind the moves and the plan, but that was absolutely the plan. The idea is, there's an upper limit to the things you can do spending 8-10 million dollars on Age 35 Mike Smith and Radim Vrbata.
Changing up the roster, adding affordable long-term pieces for those same Dollars in Stepan and Demers, and allowing young players minutes is the goal.

Last season was that nice repro landscape painting you might buy at target for $60. Looks alright but ain't gonna win any awards.
This season is a mosaic with all the tiles being rearranged. Right now it looks funny and doesn't make much sense. The particular artist might be the wrong guy to assemble the pieces but at least he's aiming for something here. Could also be sold at a flea market for $5 in a couple years.
But when you're poor you can't just go out and buy a Rembrandt.
 
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cobra427

Registered User
May 6, 2012
9,335
3,370
So players aren't widgets right? Connor McDavid is having a worse season by the standard he set last year and in a year where scoring is up in general. His coach is the same, the cast is largely the same. Players sometimes play worse independent of other things.

Coaching can be a problem too, but it's one of many factors to consider. Roster composition, player availability (IE Transforming a whole roster in a month is hard), individual motivations and leadership, and performance variance year to year are I think bigger problems than coaching or talent at explaining why the team has dropped points pace and can't win a regulation game.



So if we're comparing Hanzal to Stepan in the context of the team getting worse, the comparison is not a partial year of Hanzal in 2018, it's what he gave us last year. He was basically healthy last season too. When Hanzal was traded he had 26 points for us in 51GP. Right now Stepan has 51GP and has 30 points. Hardly a huge difference, especially in a year where scoring is up. I even made a whole post after the Stepan trade suggesting the offensive difference between the two isn't as great as you might think at a quick glance. But I basically agree that Stepan is better than Hanzal. But I think it's the difference between a B+ and a B-.

Smith is a good goalie sometimes and was last season, I don't think that was ever really in dispute. But at his age he's hardly the goalie of the future for a team with a young core around 21 years old. So there is a legitimate argument that the Coyotes needed to find a goalie for the future even if it's at the cost of winning games right now. I don't even think that's really the case though. Raanta's save percentage is .919 and the league average is .913. He's giving us above average tending for less money, possibly even greatly above average tending given that the .919 number is on the worst team in the league. Domingue having to play a month of games and lately Wedgewood too are problems. But in a straight swap Raanta for Smith? I think it's a push or just slight advantage for Smith but only slight. Raanta had never had health problems before either so it wouldn't be fair to say they took a risk on that.

Vrbata? I'd have kept him in the offseason and said so then, however he hasn't had a good year this season so that might not have worked out. But just comparing what he did last year to who's taking his minutes right now, Fischer has pretty solid numbers so far. The emergence of Keller, not a straight swap for Vrbata since Keller sometimes plays LW, is also helpful. Although his slowdown lately is hurting. But the team brought in some serious money players in Hjalmarsson and Demers, pretty clear upgrades on their counterparts last year to try and improve things. So the team went into the season relying on rookies to replace Vrby's production and to give them a chance to play. But the team still spent that money in the form of upgrades on the defense.

In terms of the record, it's obvious this stuff didn't work immediately. That's not really the point though. Chayka explicitly confirmed in an interview a couple months ago that the point of the Stepan and Hjalmarsson deals was to add some veteran presence to a lineup of young players to help them develop. Not jump from 70 something points to 80 something points. You can disagree with the reasoning behind the moves and the plan, but that was absolutely the plan. The idea is, there's an upper limit to the things you can do spending 8-10 million dollars on Age 35 Mike Smith and Radim Vrbata.
Changing up the roster, adding affordable long-term pieces for those same Dollars in Stepan and Demers, and allowing young players minutes is the goal.

Last season was that nice repro landscape painting you might buy at target for $60. Looks alright but ain't gonna win any awards.
This season is a mosaic with all the tiles being rearranged. Right now it looks funny and doesn't make much sense. The particular artist might be the wrong guy to assemble the pieces but at least he's aiming for something here. Could also be sold at a flea market for $5 in a couple years.
But when you're poor you can't just go out and buy a Rembrandt.
I understand why they traded Smith for a younger goalie and why they let Verby walk. Lets assume Verby wouldn't have produced here and the emergence of Fischer/Perlini makes up for his loss. Stepan has been equal to Hanzal but will have a big advantage in playing more games. If you add a full season of Stepan, Demers, and even partial season of Hammer, the roster is much better.

The goal tending took the blame the first 20 games but I suspect they were mostly hung out to dry by a poorly prepared team. Vegas has played 5 goalies this year, so that shouldn't be our excuse. This all leads me to believe it is a coaching problem. Zero players, any vets anyway, are having good years. They are not being put in a position to succeed individually or as a team. We should be much much better given our talent level and mix of new and better vets then last year.

Chayka and Barroway, and all of us thought this team would be better, some much better. The plan was to bring in vets to help develop younger players, agree with you there. But there was an expectation we would be much better. How much better? 80 points would be reasonable. We are at a 50 point pace, Vegas a 100+. That is the difference between a complete disaster and a miracle.
 

Jakey53

Registered User
Aug 27, 2011
30,097
9,146
TIL:

5 straight years of miserable failure and futility = a-okay

But

1/2 season of miserable failure and futility = heads better ****ing roll!

Got it! Good job boys!

I'm starting to sound like a broken record, but you guys always go back 5 or ten years when we had no owner and no money. DM and DT did a remarkable job with this team considering the circumstances and we did the same dumpster diving thing every year. It wasn't until AL and company bought the team that they decided to do a proper rebuilt. A rebuild takes time as some of you still to this day do not understand. This is year three of the rebuild and the foundation was set for us to start seeing results, and with the additions we should have been sniffing for a playoff spot. Instead, the exact opposite has happened. I'm not blaming it all on RT as everyone involved has to take blame, from the owner all the way down to the coaches and players. We have the most talent we have ever had in the last ten years, but something is wrong and I'm not sure if our organization knows what the problem is or how to fix it.
 
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MIGs Dog

HFBoards Sponsor
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Jan 3, 2012
14,466
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I'm starting to sound like a broken record, but you guys always go back 5 or ten years when we had no owner and no money. DM and DT did a remarkable job with this team considering the circumstances and we did the same dumpster diving thing every year. It wasn't until AL and company bought the team that they decided to do a proper rebuilt. A rebuild takes time as some of you still to this day do not understand. This is year three of the rebuild and the foundation was set for us to start seeing results, and with the additions we should have been sniffing for a playoff spot. Instead, the exact opposite has happened. I'm not blaming it all on RT as everyone involved has to take blame, from the owner all the way down to the coaches and players. We have the most talent we have ever had in the last ten years, but something is wrong and I'm not sure if our organization knows what the problem is or how to fix it.

We (and by we I mean the owner) still have no money. Don't need to max out the cap, but can't win consistently being bottom feeders.
 
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Bonsai Tree

Turning a new leaf
Feb 2, 2014
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It's all about the money, money, money (just say Pitch Perfect with my granddaughter. Surprisingly terrific vocals. Never knew that I liked a capella. or pseudo- a capella.) Anyway, this is what happens to a shoe string operation that is a filler for the league schedule. We don't have a chance in hell. Never did, never will without an influx of money.
 

Ebb

the nondescript
Dec 22, 2015
2,374
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PA
Is there an app that I can download which substitutes pictures of kittens whenever Tip is mentioned? :deadhorse

but seriously, even if Tip was in charge, we probably wouldn't be doing too much better (meaning probably not competing for a playoff spot). We are #31 now; perhaps we'd be #24 (at best) with Tip (assuming Barroway still made most of the moves he did and kept the budget about the same). Tip was better at sneaking in wins, but the entertainment factor was :boredom:

Is Tippett a better coach? Probably (and well he should be having coached 1,114 NHL games). Now, I have always been mixed on them picking Tocchet (199 NHL games coached), but am willing to give him a chance beyond this chaotic year. If next year is similar (or only slightly better), then I could see discussing his release, but we have to be patient.
 

TheLegend

Megathread Gadfly
Aug 30, 2009
36,682
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Buzzing BoH
I'm starting to sound like a broken record, but you guys always go back 5 or ten years when we had no owner and no money. DM and DT did a remarkable job with this team considering the circumstances and we did the same dumpster diving thing every year. It wasn't until AL and company bought the team that they decided to do a proper rebuilt. A rebuild takes time as some of you still to this day do not understand. This is year three of the rebuild and the foundation was set for us to start seeing results, and with the additions we should have been sniffing for a playoff spot. Instead, the exact opposite has happened. I'm not blaming it all on RT as everyone involved has to take blame, from the owner all the way down to the coaches and players. We have the most talent we have ever had in the last ten years, but something is wrong and I'm not sure if our organization knows what the problem is or how to fix it.

We still have no money relatively speaking. So we’re still left with getting the most out of what we have and growing from within.
 

SniperHF

Rejecting Reports
Mar 9, 2007
42,739
21,475
Phoenix
A few things before I hit the abandon thread button:

1. I'm actually very hesitant to blame (and praise) coaching in almost all things. I was very pro firing the last guy the last couple years but before that I wasn't giving that idea much time.

2. If the rebuild is supposed to see results this year (I think this is arbitrary and not exactly correct but..) the blame falls almost squarely on huge key pieces in OEL and Domi having garbage years. Their performance should not be so dependent on coaching to shift that blame. The rebuildy aspects of the rebuild are doing their jobs for the most part. Keller, Fischer, Chychrun, Raanta. It's the non-rebuild guys who are failing.

3. Relating to #1, one of these days I'm going to have to fully expand on my theory that Tippett had a whole lot less to do with the turnaround post-Gretzky than he's generally given credit for.
 
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Jakey53

Registered User
Aug 27, 2011
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We (and by we I mean the owner) still have no money. Don't need to max out the cap, but can't win consistently being bottom feeders.

Exactly. When we re-sign OEL and some players will get significant raises from their ELC our cap will be much different, so we have be careful here. If AB has no money we will be trading OEL and the like until we get a new owner. The cap has been good for the Coyotes but that is about to change.
 

Jakey53

Registered User
Aug 27, 2011
30,097
9,146
It's all about the money, money, money (just say Pitch Perfect with my granddaughter. Surprisingly terrific vocals. Never knew that I liked a capella. or pseudo- a capella.) Anyway, this is what happens to a shoe string operation that is a filler for the league schedule. We don't have a chance in hell. Never did, never will without an influx of money.

Yup. Like MIG said, we can't be consistently bottom feeders and expect to win.
 

Alberta Yote

Owns the Yotes
Dec 31, 2004
14,435
1,212
In your kitchen
After this long it seems pretty obvious a new owner with pro sports owner type money also means a new market. In Arizona a bottom feeder team will need to be good enough. Endure long periods of fan pain for the very odd chance of catching lightning in a bottle for a season.
 

cobra427

Registered User
May 6, 2012
9,335
3,370
A few things before I hit the abandon thread button:

1. I'm actually very hesitant to blame (and praise) coaching in almost all things. I was very pro firing the last guy the last couple years but before that I wasn't giving that idea much time.

2. If the rebuild is supposed to see results this year (I think this is arbitrary and not exactly correct but..) the blame falls almost squarely on huge key pieces in OEL and Domi having garbage years. Their performance should not be so dependent on coaching to shift that blame. The rebuildy aspects of the rebuild are doing their jobs for the most part. Keller, Fischer, Chychrun, Raanta. It's the non-rebuild guys who are failing.

3. Relating to #1, one of these days I'm going to have to fully expand on my theory that Tippett had a whole lot less to do with the turnaround post-Gretzky than he's generally given credit for.
1. Maybe you were wrong.
2. Maybe the previous coach was better at getting more out of his key players.
3. Love to hear you theory?
 

cobra427

Registered User
May 6, 2012
9,335
3,370
..... and PLEASE stop comparing us to Vegas.

Their roster is on average 2 years older per player and they have 2000+ more games of NHL experience.
Maybe we should have older players if we want to win? That was the criticism of Tip, wanting vets. We can't have the argument both ways.
 

TheLegend

Megathread Gadfly
Aug 30, 2009
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Buzzing BoH
Maybe we should have older players if we want to win? That was the criticism of Tip, wanting vets. We can't have the argument both ways.

And your point is what?? Another “let’s bring Tippett back into the discussion”??? Everything seems to keep cycling back to that.

Tipp’s gone... he’s not coming back. They made the full commitment to building the team up from within with a few select pieces. Something they spent five years talking about post 2012 but couldn’t commit to it because of one reason or another (ie bad drafts, Ribeiro, guys who can’t exit the penalty box with all their gear etc... etc....) and that was with Tippett around.
 
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Vinny Boombatz

formerly ctwin22
Mar 21, 2008
10,992
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Chandler, AZ
I love doing the Tippett is the greatest every month...it's fantastic and so relevant since he absolutely "sucked ass" as a coach the last 5 years with the Coyotes. There is 'zero' argument that can be made that he was a competent coach. The man had a worse 4yr span than fricken Gretzky. Last 4 years Tippett .447 TGO .473
 
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Bonsai Tree

Turning a new leaf
Feb 2, 2014
9,211
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Please, enough about Tippett. He wasn't Toe Blake or Scotty Bowman, but he wasn't TGO or Bowman either. If we want to look nostalgically back at a better coach we have to look at Schoenfeld years.

IMO we went from bad to bad. And, Legend, Vegas is a fine comparison for the Coyotes. Both regimes are new. Vegas has a goalie and a cast of throw away NHL players. Coyotes have throw away veterans and a bunch of rookies. The comparison sheds light on to just how bad our front office and coaching staff have been.
 

TheLegend

Megathread Gadfly
Aug 30, 2009
36,682
28,672
Buzzing BoH
You can not compare us with Vegas.

They had the opportunity of more than a year to build a franchise from scratch. And they had an owner with the bankroll to make it happen.

They were able to select specific players who fit how they wanted to play.

Gallant dropped right into their laps at the right time.

They have an entire city and corporate community and media behind them.

So you really want to believe we can be compared to that???

Vegas is what we should have had in 1996.

What we got was a carnival side show that changed actors now and then.
 
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_Del_

Registered User
Jul 4, 2003
15,426
6,737
2016-2017 Game 50: 16-28-6. 38 pts
Best coach ever with amazing goaltending

2017-2018 Game 50: 12-29-9 33 pts
Worst coach ever, no system, generously mediocre in net


HUGE swing that Top 3 coach and goaltending made, eh?
 

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