GDT: Game 5: Bruins @ Coyotes | 6:00 p.m. PDT | FS-A | 620 AM

[Matias Maccete]

It's not really about vindicating Tippett. I don't think the team will stay like this forever and want to see us string together effective play. The same reasons that you are saying, "What did you expect?" are the same reasons why Tippett had his mantra of "the league isn't meant as a learning ground."

The players will learn from their mistakes, but these are the times where the old regime would put vets out there at the expense of talent so that we would find players like Domi, Duclair, Strome, et al not trying to rely on talent alone. Understanding positioning, when to react this way, etc. Learning to do your assignment. Cause for the hurt this causes us as fans - this may be more harmful to the players to show up with less confidence and more indecision on game days.

So it's about vindicating his mantra? Again I'm a bit confused about what you're really saying here.

I could see it if we had players who were playing that aren't ready. If we didn't have Stepan, and were forcing Dvorak and strome at 1 and 2c I'd get it, or if Keller weren't living up to playing on the 1st line or something. I can see an argument for sending down Fisher and maybe crouse, but otherwise these guys are ready. Yeah they're going to make rookie mistakes, which is where "what did you expect" comes from, but it's not because they're being forced into the lineup, it's because rookies make rookie mistakes. It's going to happen sometime, the league kind of has to be a learning ground sometime if you want to work in rookies. Burying them and bringing in vets only delays that.

"The players will learn from their mistakes, but these are the times where the old regime would put vets out there at the expense of talent so that we would find players like Domi, Duclair, Strome, et al not trying to rely on talent alone."

One of these guys is in the minors, he's not trying to rely on talent alone. Domi has been disappointing, but would you send him down? Trade for a vet left winger to slot him lower in the lineup, a position we have a bit of a log jam at anyway? Duke has been creating chances like mad this season, and I can't see how pushing him down the lineup helps since he's already on the 3rd anyway.

"this may be more harmful to the players to show up with less confidence and more indecision on game days." This I agree with, and we need our vets to step up, but that doesn't mean bury the kids and throw some more vets in there. We need the already acquired vets (mostly Stepan, he's been close to useless) to step up.

 

[cobra427]

Really, because I thought my complaint was that the guy who got fired was more interested in trying to squeeze out meaningless loser points in throwaway years than he was in development of young talent which might actually make us successful long term.
I'm pretty sure I said multiple times my expectations were low, our roster was dangerously thin, and we were going to have a slow start, but hopefully we'd be developing talent and putting them in positions to succeed and gain confidence.

[Mod]

You and many others thought Tip, his system, and youth development was in the stone age. Tocc was going to change all that, and hey his opening day roster was picture perfect to most. It's not that easy. I hope Tocc can turn this around but his plan might be flawed. How do you rationalize being the worst team in the NHL after 5 games with this roster?

 

[_Del_]

The diefied guy that got fired had us in second-to-last place for all but the last week of last season on the back of several wins/loser-points won by good Smith.
This year, we have a roster with more young players in key roles getting an actual opportunity for growth, a new coach and anti-system to the previous regime, we're paper thin, have injuries and less than stellar goaltending, and we're one spot away from last year after a handful of games.
My outlook for the future is still brighter than it was on 21 June 2017.

 

[Matias Maccete]

The diefied guy that got fired had us in second-to-last place for all but the last week of last season on the back of several wins/loser-points won by good Smith.
This year, we have a roster with more young players in key roles getting an actual opportunity for growth, a new coach and anti-system to the previous regime, we're paper thin, have injuries and less than stellar goaltending, and we're one spot away from last year after a handful of games.
My outlook for the future is still brighter than it was on 21 June 2017.

I can't disagree with this, but I'd be lying if I said I wasn't worried after this start. Don't get me wrong, it's very early, and I thought we'd struggle out of the gate, but it's been very rough.

It's also not really fair to compare last year's roster to this one. We've had injuries yeah, but last year's roster was terribad. Damn it I'm discussing he who shall not be named. Stupid me.

 

[_Del_]

We all knew there was a learning curve associated with a real rebuild.
Further, if you take away some nights of way above average goaltending last year, how bad do you think we would have looked? We were consistently outplayed everynight last year, too.
I'm not sold on Tocchet, but I'm glad we're trying to do the right things. I'm not thrilled with our offseason because I feel we half-assed it. Also would have preferred Miller or Elliot in net at no cost of assets. I'm not impressed with how long it took to cut guys in camp instead of trying to concentrate on getting the NHL players used to eachother and the system.
Those are minor annoyances compared to the obvious failures we made headway in recognizing and attempting to fix.
If a goaltender had stepped up to steal a game or two, would we be having this conversation?

 

[Matias Maccete]

We all knew there was a learning curve associated with a real rebuild.
Further, if you take away some nights of way above average goaltending last year, how bad do you think we would have looked? We were consistently outplayed everynight last year, too.
I'm not sold on Tocchet, but I'm glad we're trying to do the right things. I'm not thrilled with our offseason because I feel we half-assed it. Also would have preferred Miller or Elliot in net at no cost of assets. I'm not impressed with how long it took to cut guys in camp instead of trying to concentrate on getting the NHL players used to eachother and the system.
Those are minor annoyances compared to the obvious failures we made headway in recognizing and attempting to fix.
If a goaltender had stepped up to steal a game or two, would we be having this conversation?

All fair points. It is true that we got out played pretty much all year last year, but I think this team does have more talent. For the question at the end, Raanta did everything except for score against the knights at home, he tried to steal the game and we refused to let him.

You put it into perspective well though, despite this start, we are at least trying to fix our problems. It's 5 games, it's not the end of the world, it just sucks to see us start this poorly.

 

[Lilhoody]

Should've just signed Chad Johnson.

He got shelled Monday afternoon and looked poor in relief of Lehner last Saturday...both were flopping on ice, like kids making snow angels.

 

[gorsk11]

Everyone is talking about Tippett and Tocchet.

The most surprising thing to me is how bad OEL is playing. He should be one of our very best players. He's not one of our best defenseman at this time. He's a -9. The next closest is -5 which is Stepan.
And yes they play against top lines, but OEL is playing below average.

I don't know who Tocc is talking about but the veteran players are not contributing what they should. You can't have only one line of offense. Perlini being out hurts that.

 

[TheLegend]

Everyone is talking about Tippett and Tocchet.

The most surprising thing to me is how bad OEL is playing. He should be one of our very best players. He's not one of our best defenseman at this time. He's a -9. The next closest is -5 which is Stepan.
And yes they play against top lines, but OEL is playing below average.

I don't know who Tocc is talking about but the veteran players are not contributing what they should. You can't have only one line of offense. Perlini being out hurts that.

OEL suffered an injury to his knee in the pre-season. Actually needed help off the ice at the time. Not sure if it's a contributing factor but he's playing like he's protecting it.

 

[Prarievarg]

OEL suffered an injury to his knee in the pre-season. Actually needed help off the ice at the time. Not sure if it's a contributing factor but he's playing like he's protecting it.

If that's the case he shouldn't be playing. He's not helping the team in his current condition. But I believe the problem lies elsewhere. Before this season I thought for sure OEL would make a good leader, I'm not sure anymore. It seems to me he has a hard time handling the pressure of being a leader on and off the ice, trying too hard to make fancy plays. I want to see the calm OEL from two seasons back and I think the only way is to play through it, when the team starts to get comfortable with the system I believe OEL as well will improve.

 

[gorsk11]

OEL suffered an injury to his knee in the pre-season. Actually needed help off the ice at the time. Not sure if it's a contributing factor but he's playing like he's protecting it.

I have only been to two games this year. I was at the game he was hurt and I was at the Boston game. The knee could be an issue but his decision making is off. Just his basic defense is suffering, Marchand walked right by him a few times. He doesn't look comfortable on the power play also. I hope he gets healed if it is that or finds his game.

I really think Chychrun will strive in the new up-tempo game. At least I hope so coming off injury.

 

[Matias Maccete]

OEL needs to sit until he's healthy. It would kill our defensive depth, but I don't like him playing injured yet again, especially this early.

 

[BUX7PHX]

I don't think anyone has said "that Tocchet's roster turnover was far greater than what Tippett's was",or was saying negative things and not applying the roster turnover excuse then though. It's not like 5 games into 2009 people were saying Tip is awful and should be fired regardless of the big changes, and those same people are giving Tocc a pass because of roster turnover 7 years later. No one was criticizing Tip in that season, that came much later, and even then I don't think I've ever seen anyone criticize his first year here. If you're trying to say there's a double standard when applying the roster turnover excuse then I disagree.

If you're just stating that Tip did well with a roster that was very diffserent than the year before and Tocc so far hasn't, then I guess I agree, but those new players under Tip aren't rookies or 2nd year players(raw as you stated). He did have less talent overall, but also had solid goaltending and a veteran laden roster. It's not a completely comparable situation imo.

If your point is Tip's 1st 5 games were better than Tocc's than I agree, but I don't think anyone here would disagree. Who here wasn't a big Tippett fan in year 1? I feel like either I'm missing something here, or you're arguing against something no one has said.

To me (and probably more than just me), there is a double standard being applied here. While you are right that Tip never had the youth that this team has, one of the keys to all of this was how the youth would work so well in an up tempo system since that caters to their style, whereas Tip was putting the proverbial square pegs into round holes in his system and not adapting. Tocchet's system is meant to be more favorable, yet the results on scoreboard has been no better and the team looks more uncertain on the ice on a shift to shift basis.

The general retort will be that the players are making bad passes, giveaways, etc., which sounds a lot like how the team executes. Yet the double standard again applies because people would tire of hearing "execute" and assume that the Tippett system was causing the lack of execution or being able to execute for fear of never getting ice time if you make a mistake.

While we had some bad teams under Tippett, we never had play that looked so disorganized, even at it's worst. We were a below average team who was at least consistent in their approach, even if unspectacular. Now, we are all over the map. I'd be happy with 2 steps forward, 3 back on occasion. Feels like we take 10 steps forward, then 15 back, which seems like the opposite of effective growth.

 

[BUX7PHX]

We all knew there was a learning curve associated with a real rebuild.
Further, if you take away some nights of way above average goaltending last year, how bad do you think we would have looked? We were consistently outplayed everynight last year, too.
I'm not sold on Tocchet, but I'm glad we're trying to do the right things. I'm not thrilled with our offseason because I feel we half-assed it. Also would have preferred Miller or Elliot in net at no cost of assets. I'm not impressed with how long it took to cut guys in camp instead of trying to concentrate on getting the NHL players used to eachother and the system.
Those are minor annoyances compared to the obvious failures we made headway in recognizing and attempting to fix.
If a goaltender had stepped up to steal a game or two, would we be having this conversation?

Yes, even if we had stolen the Anaheim game, there were a ton of coverage mistakes 2nd period on that allowed at least 6 or 7 point blank chances that the Ducks simply didn't capitalize on. Opening night at home is far more forgivable b/c it was a pulled goalie situation. Home game for Vegas after the tragedy there, our backs are against the wall, but we still have to play. Detroit appeared to be a turning point for the good, and then we look worse than ever the next game against Boston.

https://www.indianagazette.com/spor...cle_8a078a9a-942d-5b20-8123-2786edecc969.html

The first sentence of this article flat out says that Tocchet is known as a "player's coach" - that usually leads to a country club atmosphere, so it sounds like that atmosphere was never changed, even though it was promised that it would.

People put so much blame on Tippett's shoulders, but maybe there are far more similarities to Tippett and Tocchet in coaching, even if styles are not the same. Tippett put Duclair with plugs, and now he is skating with Cousins and Kempe. Is that the sign of a coach who despises Duclair, or is that a recognition that Duclair has valuable facets to his game that come with limitations which relegate him as a 3rd line player for now? There are many other fine examples of how the perception that Tocchet was going to undo all of the negatives that Tippett did that are just that: perception. Reality is that players are making the same mistakes as players, regardless of system.

 

[Coyotedroppings]

Remember the Players Tribune article where OEL espoused Dave Tippetts system because he has "seen it work?"

Perhaps he isn't quite as convinced with RT's system. Thus far he's not playing as well under it - no one is.

 

[Jakey53]

Everyone is talking about Tippett and Tocchet.

The most surprising thing to me is how bad OEL is playing. He should be one of our very best players. He's not one of our best defenseman at this time. He's a -9. The next closest is -5 which is Stepan.
And yes they play against top lines, but OEL is playing below average.

I don't know who Tocc is talking about but the veteran players are not contributing what they should. You can't have only one line of offense. Perlini being out hurts that.

I have said for a while now the vets are not pulling their weight, and unfortunately, I don't think have Perlini in the line up would have made much difference.

 

[Jakey53]

I have only been to two games this year. I was at the game he was hurt and I was at the Boston game. The knee could be an issue but his decision making is off. Just his basic defense is suffering, Marchand walked right by him a few times. He doesn't look comfortable on the power play also. I hope he gets healed if it is that or finds his game.

I really think Chychrun will strive in the new up-tempo game. At least I hope so coming off injury.

OEL needs to sit until he's healthy. It would kill our defensive depth, but I don't like him playing injured yet again, especially this early.

I don't think OEL is injured. I don't see the urgency in his game, and he is not alone. We need a Captain to take the bull by the horns and lead this team by example. Not naming a Captain for this young team was pure and simple stupid.

 

[Coyotedroppings]

I always thought RT was a meathead and he's done nothing to change my perception.
I honestly want him to succeed - hate losing / love winning and all, but his recent post game comments are only further enforcing the meathead theory. He's been complaining about conditioning since camp. Now he doesn't know if they're in shape? Why the hell hasn't he got them there? It would also seem he has no form of discipline based on the Indiana Gazette article. Seriously? With a bunch of kids that (up until now) have been given incredible doses of discipline to date? Then he wonders why they're just "running around" the ice at times? If it weren't for (yet again) thousands of dollars invested in this team, I'd be laughing - you can't make this stuff up.

 

[Coyotedroppings]

I have said for a while now the vets are not pulling their weight

The vets need to be a solid calming influence. They are in a spot for certain, in that the more often Players are out of position, the harder it becomes to remain that influence.

 

[Jakey53]

I always thought RT was a meathead and he's done nothing to change my perception.
I honestly want him to succeed - hate losing / love winning and all, but his recent post game comments are only further enforcing the meathead theory. He's been complaining about conditioning since camp. Now he doesn't know if they're in shape? Why the hell hasn't he got them there? It would also seem he has no form of discipline based on the Indiana Gazette article. Seriously? With a bunch of kids that (up until now) have been given incredible doses of discipline to date? Then he wonders why they're just "running around" the ice at times? If it weren't for (yet again) thousands of dollars invested in this team, I'd be laughing - you can't make this stuff up.

Not sure I would call RT a meathead as I thought he was the best choice of who we interviewed, which is not saying much. Barroway wanted to make a splash and he did by firing DT and not signing Doan. He made his bed and now he has to lay in it. I hope we don't panic and trade a young kid for an old fart for leadership.

 

[Jakey53]

The vets need to be a solid calming influence. They are in a spot for certain, in that the more often Players are out of position, the harder it becomes to remain that influence.

I agree, but what I don't understand is we play a good period, then make a mistake and the puck ends up in the back of our net and we crumble. It would be nice if our goalie could make a game saving save.

 

[BUX7PHX]

Not sure I would call RT a meathead as I thought he was the best choice of who we interviewed, which is not saying much. Barroway wanted to make a splash and he did by firing DT and not signing Doan. He made his bed and now he has to lay in it. I hope we don't panic and trade a young kid for an old fart for leadership.

I don't think we make a trade like that.

Most of our top veterans are new, so yes, there is that adjustment for them (and everyone). But sometimes the veterans are forced into covering for others mistakes. Tocchet has stated that players need to trust in being in the right place and not worry about covering for someone else. If I didn't know any better, that sounds like someone saying that these players should know to not take themselves out of position by recognizing their assignment and their physical abilities. Almost like the NHL isn't a developmental league and places like junior, the ECHL, or AHL are where players can start to understand their assignments so that we, as fans, don't see exactly what is happening right now in the NHL. I swear I heard that the NHL isn't a developmental league from someone...

 

[The Feckless Puck]

Look - our team is sucking horribly right now, so it's natural for us to turn on each other with rationales as to why.

For me, the long and the short of it is this:

• Dave Tippett is not a bad coach. He simply stayed past his expiration date, which almost all but the best coaches inevitably have.
• Rick Tocchet has never proven to be a dynamic, winning head coach. He's gotten his success as an assistant. So that is worrisome.
• Beyond having to learn a new system, our veteran players are continuing a trend of working at about 95% in games that predates Tocchet. Don't know if it's something in the weather that makes it happen, but now two head coaches have used the same verbiage to describe our vets as "passengers."
• Louis Domingue is not an NHL-caliber goalie, and the guys in the system who still may be are nowhere near ready to move up.

So my prognosis right now, barring a sudden "Miracle"-style bag skate that suddenly inspires the team to greatness, is pain. And lots of it.

 

[Vinny Boombatz]

Look - our team is sucking horribly right now, so it's natural for us to turn on each other with rationales as to why.

For me, the long and the short of it is this:

• Louis Domingue is not an NHL-caliber goalie,

.

As much of us would like to think he is, but he isn't. If we can't have Raanta in for 70% of the games, it's going to be a very long year. Yes, Domingue will get hot for 2-3 games in a row, but then all the other games we will get the middling AHL caliber goalie. Don't care what team you're on, look at Calgary last year and Edmonton before Talbot, you've got to be good in the crease to consistently win games at this level.

 

[KG]

I'm not sure I like OEL's penchant of playing through injuries either