GDT: Game 5: Bruins @ Coyotes | 6:00 p.m. PDT | FS-A | 620 AM

SniperHF

Rejecting Reports
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FTR I still think this is all premature, but since everyone's talking about it might as well wargame it out.

Canning a guy too fast could be bad for your reputation. Especially a shaky franchise such as ours. And it would likely be seen as unfair league wide given the other circumstances surrounding the team. Young players, core change, new leadership (or lack of....), Raanta being hurt. You might even see players push to get out of the insanity.

The Lightning tossed Melrose (who Tocchet replaced lol) after 16 games. Ron Rolston got chucked overboard after 50 but that was split over two seasons.

I don't think he has till spring necessarily, but definitely longer than the next string of games. If you see an insane scenario where they only win a handful of games in 3 months I could see them doing something. But really even then you're likely promoting an assistant or Van Ryn so what's the point. Maybe something weird like Sully comes down.


I think it's much more likely Tocchet and the FO come up with a plan to change up the system mid-season than they outright replace him.
 

Bondurant

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Jul 4, 2012
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Other than Keller, Crouse, Rieder, Hjalmarsson and to a lesser extent, Duclair, everyone else is on my total **** list currently. Domi may have been there but man he was terrible tonight.

Domi, at least, has a lot of fight in him. In the 1st Carlo and Chara went to retrieve the puck behind Khudobin. Four Coyotes went into instant retreat mode. Domi went after the puck and went against two guys twice his size and made them work. I like that.
 

XX

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Dec 10, 2002
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I think it's much more likely Tocchet and the FO come up with a plan to change up the system mid-season than they outright replace him.

- the entire coaching staff changed
- the entire training staff changed
- the ownership changed
- the leadership group significantly changed
- the roster itself significantly changed. Practically every line and pairing is different.

+ bad luck, poor form, lack of momentum

It's not surprising there hasn't been instant success. If after 20 games there are no signs of improvement then we'll talk. As it stands, I think guys need to feel each other out, including the coach. A leadership group needs to form. Some players need to wake the hell up.

Some guys probably need to be flushed. Can Schenn realistically play the style Tocchet is going for? He struggles with tape to tape passes and he can't move the puck up the ice quickly. He is only on the roster by virtue of bringing something that the other regulars don't have. He shouldn't be pinching but the staff apparently encourages him to do it. That's a problem.

It could be as simple as winning a game to snap out of the funk. Like the team was absolutely flying when they were feeling good against Anaheim, then the dread set in.
 

Jakey53

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If they aren't on the same page, that is a coaching/system problem. Vegas has all new players, but somehow they are a cohesive unit.

If Vegas never had Neal they would not be in a position they are in. Vegas is playing over their head at the moment. Give it another ten games and see what happens with them, and speaking of new players, most of theirs are vets that are showing up to play, ours on the other hand...
 
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Jakey53

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Over the first five games, Goligoski, Demers, and OEL haven't even been half as good as we need them to be. Stepan is looking a lot like a complimentary player as well. Apart from that, Domingue is falling apart. Passing has been bad, but it's Demers and Goligoski with the absolute worst passes and decisions with the puck. There is a lot of panic with the puck on this team. A lot of very bad decisions with even the least bit of pressure. The story of the season is unforced errors.

The Bruins capitalized on our mistakes. I didn't think we played as bad as most are saying. Not saying that we played great, but not as bad as the score board reads.
 

Jakey53

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Agreed. We keep making similar mistakes. However, if there are times when players go off script, the staff also needs to be able to make in game adjustments. Simplify the system, even at the expense of losing some of the up-tempo play. Make sure the players are getting it right.

Don't continue to roll four lines deep in the same way that it has been done. Find out who is doing it right and give them ice time. When in doubt, let the veterans be the stabilizing force so that the youth doesn't pick up bad habits. Our entire defense is pretty much playing with new partners right now, so that is going to take a while to get comfortable within the system. But simplify until then.

Yup, simplify a bit and when we get rolling implement more.
 

Jakey53

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At about the 2:30 mark Tocchet talks about getting in new players. At the 3:32 mark Tocchet talks about having to "babysit players". If that isn't a threat, I don't know what is.

So that means Rinado will be in the line up. Last night every time we made a mistake it was in the net, the players are trying a bit to hard and playing as individuals and the vets still have to show more leadership. I just find it hard to believe some came to camp out of shape. Also, not naming a Captain is plain stupidity.
 

Mosby

<3 Uncle Gary
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I can't imagine Tocchet will be fired. Barroway doesn't want to pay Tippett and Tocchet and another new coach. Besides, who will we hire? The other candidates we looked at like Eakins and Nelson won't be allowed to leave their AHL gigs mid-season.

It's on the players to fix this.
 

Heldig

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It's on the players to fix this.

AND Chayka. Tocchet sold him on his (the Pens) system. Maybe they over estimated the players on the roster and their ability to play that system (OEL for example). Need to switch out some players to give the coach a chance.

Most of us expected a learning curve but you never want it to be this harsh. I really expected Dvorak to be a lot better. We need him to be a lot better.
 

kbay

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I can see a lot of truth to this. I can see a scenario where once we get a win the floodgates kind of open ( players start having fun) and we start winning with some regularity. Like when a scorer is going through a cold streak, and just seems snakebit, then once he pots a goal he scores 4. That can't take 20 games to happen though, and we've had great opportunities against a depleted ducks roster, an expansion team on our home opener, a mediocre Detroit team, and a slumping bruins team with their backup in net missing key players.

Hopefully Dallas gifts us a win, because even though some of those east coast teams look beatable if we go on that road trip winless I can see us just fully melting down.


The past two seasons we have gone winless on those east coast trips - including two total rear end kicking games against the Penguins as Tocchet probably well remembers.
 

kbay

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Threatened isn't really the right word. Listen to it for yourself, because people are obviously (and poorly) editorializing the interview:



I think a few guys showed up out of shape, there's been some bad luck, a lot of roster turnover, and no clear leadership in the room. Tocchet also might be a little rough around the edges.

All of that equals tough sledding.



Sorry but I like a coach that doesn't sugar coat things. If I sucked at my job I would be called out also.

I have always been a Tocchet fan even in his playing days. His only down was his previous years here, but we will forgive that due to other party involved.
 
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knich

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Can we trade anyone?

Guess we can't fire the coach. How can we create a shakeup here?

Nor should we. There are many problems but Toch is not one of them. If the team wasn’t showing up at begin of games, I might agree.

Said this so many times over the past few years, but having a good offense and ton of potential .on offense does not necessarily help your defense.

But having a solid defense can open things up on the ice and lead to good offense.

We are plagued by the same things that people would blame on our former coach. Players are desperate, but in a bad way. Need to spend a lot more time on defensive play and not trying to just go full speed ahead all the time. It's forming bad habits as players try to force things.

The operative word here is potential. There are lots of players in history of NHL who have had potential but sucked on ice. Sadly, the pundits may have over hyped our guys. They may not simply be as good as we think they are.

How is two deflections, a point blank chance, and a pseudo breakaway against a guy that can score 40 goals in any way his fault? This team is giving up piles of high quality chances just like last year.

I agree. But Louie needs to stand on his head at times during game to keep team in games. Grant Fuhr would give up many goals but he stopped shots at critical times. Not comparing Louie to Fuhr but Louie is not stopping any critical shots. We need Greiss back.

Maybe put a vet on waivers as a bit of a wake up call. Schenn would work.

He wouldn't be claimed, and we don't actually have to assign him, but it's something.

Save us Chayka.

Sadly, We have to consider whether Chayka and his focus on analytics is part of the problem. For those trashing Toch, keep in mind that Toch inherited this roster and farm team.

I think the whole not having a defined leadership core is messing with guys. Nobody would ever accuse Goligoski of leading the charge on anything. OEL is unproven.

Stepan looks out of shape to me, so that probably nixes his credibility.

They really need someone to get fed up with losing and to say "**** this" at this point.

Something Toch is learning quickly. I believe Goli played with Pittsburgh when Toch was there and before his game tanked. So that might explain why Toch gave him the A. But the fact that Toch wisely gave no one the C speaks volumes about your last sentence.

Domi-Cousins-Keller.. well I've about seen enough.

IMO...despite Domi and Keller getting results together, they are both playmakers. Instead of removing Stepan, they should have split Domi and Keller much like they did with OEL and Hammer. Put Domi back with the Duke. Or put Dvorak in between them.

This is a bad hockey team.

Yep

My GDT's are now 0-4-1.

But they are great!

It's one of those things where people mention how much the coach was the issue, and it turns out, it may have never been the coach or the system at all.

Think about it - Tip always stated how this isn't a learning league. This game is showing that exact premise right here. We need players that know what to do out there. Yes, we have a learning curve with a new coach and new system, but when it is a broken record of a) execution, b) chasing the game, and c) playing 60 minutes, why isn't Tocchet getting the exact same vitriol that Tippett was getting when the team is failing for the exact same reasons? Tocchet preached accountability, yet we look less accountable than any other time under a coach that people claimed never held anyone accountable.

Not saying we look worse than last year at this point, but we certainly don't look better.

First, because Tip had an active role in shaping a team we have started to overhaul. Second, because Tip’s system was not only a losing system but it was madly unentertaining. Third, Tip had not taken team to playoffs in...forever..and frankly not even close. But to your point, this is why I’m looking to Chayka and to our talent. Can’t blame Toch for a team he didn’t build. Say what you want about Vegas but there are proven NHL players, scorers and goalies on that team. As an example, people forget Jon Marchessault scored 30 goals last year for the Panthers..not to mention Neal and Perron. Did we have 30 goal scorer last year? Will we have one this year?

I liked the post game interviews tonight. I think they can dig out but they're going need help. They've got to face a team soon that has a really bad night and we've got to catch a bunch of luck. I think if we can steal just a little momentum it can go a long way. We're wallowing. I bet this team plays well when they're having fun. Nobody is having fun right now. We need some luck.

This might fix us for one night but it won’t fix the root of the problem.

I really don't know. I also really don't know why the players weren't tested for game fitness at the beginning of camp and worked into game shape before the season started.

One of the first things Toch said and was surprised about was that some players were out of shape. Apparently some still are.

At about the 2:30 mark Tocchet talks about getting in new players. At the 3:32 mark Tocchet talks about having to "babysit players". If that isn't a threat, I don't know what is.

It is and it should be. These guys are being paid millions of dollars to perform nightly. They only have to skate 12-15 minutes a night. These guys all have skated 20+ min in junior, college etc. Be a pro or go!

How many more losses before Tocchet gets canned? Quite within the realm of possibility to not win a game. Two against Dallas, then Chicago, then the East coast trip. Does he need to get more than 8 points by the end of the month to keep his job? I think anything less than 8 and he goes.

Toch is the right coach. Can anyone really say when the team has played well (for a period or two) they prefer Tip’s system over Toch’s? He needs the right personnel.

AND Chayka. Tocchet sold him on his (the Pens) system. Maybe they over estimated the players on the roster and their ability to play that system (OEL for example). Need to switch out some players to give the coach a chance.

Most of us expected a learning curve but you never want it to be this harsh. I really expected Dvorak to be a lot better. We need him to be a lot better.

Bingo! Ranta and Perlini’s injuries also really hurt us.
 
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_Del_

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What was everyone expecting with this roster and all the turnover? I don't get it. We could go 0-82 and I'd still be happy if other things were happening that might help ensure future success. It's obviously a throwaway development year with new staff, a leadership void, glaring holes in a shallow lineup, massive turnover on- and off-ice.
I'd be more concerned if they thought this shallow (extremely cheap) lineup was going anywhere after all the upheaval.
Tocchett wasn't even on my short list, but the same people wih all the excuses in the world for ol' Davsey Wavesy are now putting all of this on coaching? Lol
 
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_Del_

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I just find it hard to believe some came to camp out of shape
I don't. I seem to recall several players after being traded away making statements about the change of pace of practices compared to Phoenix/AZ. We had a very reactive and passive system in place under a player's coach. We are trying to institute and maintain a higher-pace system that demands more physically (and in some ways mentally) from the players.
 
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BUX7PHX

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What was everyone expecting with this roster and all the turnover? I don't get it. We could go 0-82 and I'd still be happy if other things were happening that might help ensure future success. It's obviously a throwaway development year with new staff, a leadership void, glaring holes in a shallow lineup, massive turnover on- and off-ice.
I'd be more concerned if they thought this shallow (extremely cheap) lineup was going anywhere after all the upheaval.
Tocchett wasn't even on my short list, but the same people wih all the excuses in the world for ol' Davsey Wavesy are now putting all of this on coaching? Lol

Tippett's first team here had a lot of roster turnover. And he took the job about one week before the preseason started. He did okay that year. Guess the excuses are left for Tocchet and not Tippett.

The irony is that for so long, people like you were stating how Tippett couldn't coach, yet the ideas of a lack of talent were only cited by the Tippett "apologists." Yet, on this very page of the thread, people are talking about how maybe pundits over-estimated our talent level this year, and this is arguably the most talented roster we have ever iced.

Tippett "never held players accountable." Tocchet said he was going to hold players accountable. Is this what accountability looks like? He is calling players out publicly. Tippett was ostracized when he did that. But for Tocchet, that's "what we need - for someone to tell it like it is."

It's just a bunch of hypocritical BS in the long run.
 
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BUX7PHX

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Wait, what? No one called for Tippett to be fired 5 games in, it was 5 years in.

People are trying to create scenarios that fit their line of thinking. Yes, we have had a huge amount of turnover on the roster this past year. Thus far, we have seen new faces in Stepan, Hjalmarsson, Raanta, Cousins, Keller, Kempe, Demers, Clendening, and Fischer.

In 09-10, Aucoin, Bissonette, Fiddler, Korpikoski, Lang, Lepisto, Nokelainen, Pyatt, Vandermeer, and the return of Vrbata was our turnover. Oh, and three players who were expected to play significant roles were returned to the A in Turris, Boedker, and Tikhonov.

Let's stop pretending that Tocchet's roster turnover was far greater than what Tippett's was cause it almost sounds like that is an excuse for Tocchet's current failures. In fact, Tocchet had far better talent (albeit raw talent in some cases), so his job should be easier than what Tippett's was.

Let's just say that I am not advocating firing Tocchet, nor do I think that we will continue on the awful path of hockey that we are currently mired in. When we look like we have gotten worse yet added talent, that's disheartening.
 
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cobra427

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May 6, 2012
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What was everyone expecting with this roster and all the turnover? I don't get it. We could go 0-82 and I'd still be happy if other things were happening that might help ensure future success. It's obviously a throwaway development year with new staff, a leadership void, glaring holes in a shallow lineup, massive turnover on- and off-ice.
I'd be more concerned if they thought this shallow (extremely cheap) lineup was going anywhere after all the upheaval.
Tocchett wasn't even on my short list, but the same people wih all the excuses in the world for ol' Davsey Wavesy are now putting all of this on coaching? Lol

Based on how bad Tip was as a coach and how dumb he was not playing youth, I expected we would be better, not way worse. We added a vet 2D/4D/1C, and got rid of the cancers Tip/Smith. We have Strome/Keller/Perlini/DVO/ and Duclair out from being squashed and treated badly by Tip. It was suppose to be a lay down that we would be so much better according to all the Tip haters. That is what you guys said, so what happened? Its still early and Tocc can get this turned around but right now it is a mess, and with 3 major player upgrades, we should be playing much better.
 

_Del_

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Jul 4, 2003
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Wait, what? No one called for Tippett to be fired 5 games in, it was 5 years in.

No amount of future failure will be worse than the decision to stick with a bad fit and diminishing returns would have been.

I'm not even defending Tocchet as a great coach. Wouldn't have been my choice, but it's hysterical how this slow start has become a rallying cry for people trying to vindicate Tippett.
 

_Del_

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Jul 4, 2003
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cobra427 said:
It was suppose to be a lay down that wewould be so much better according to all the Tip haters.That is what you guys said, so what happened?

Really, because I thought my complaint was that the guy who got fired was more interested in trying to squeeze out meaningless loser points in throwaway years than he was in development of young talent which might actually make us successful long term.
I'm pretty sure I said multiple times my expectations were low, our roster was dangerously thin, and we were going to have a slow start, but hopefully we'd be developing talent and putting them in positions to succeed and gain confidence.

[Mod]
 
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BUX7PHX

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No amount of future failure will be worse than the decision to stick with a bad fit and diminishing returns would have been.

I'm not even defending Tocchet as a great coach. Wouldn't have been my choice, but it's hysterical how this slow start has become a rallying cry for people trying to vindicate Tippett.

It's not really about vindicating Tippett. I don't think the team will stay like this forever and want to see us string together effective play. The same reasons that you are saying, "What did you expect?" are the same reasons why Tippett had his mantra of "the league isn't meant as a learning ground."

The players will learn from their mistakes, but these are the times where the old regime would put vets out there at the expense of talent so that we would find players like Domi, Duclair, Strome, et al not trying to rely on talent alone. Understanding positioning, when to react this way, etc. Learning to do your assignment. Cause for the hurt this causes us as fans - this may be more harmful to the players to show up with less confidence and more indecision on game days.
 

Matias Maccete

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Sep 21, 2014
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People are trying to create scenarios that fit their line of thinking. Yes, we have had a huge amount of turnover on the roster this past year. Thus far, we have seen new faces in Stepan, Hjalmarsson, Raanta, Cousins, Keller, Kempe, Demers, Clendening, and Fischer.

In 09-10, Aucoin, Bissonette, Fiddler, Korpikoski, Lang, Lepisto, Nokelainen, Pyatt, Vandermeer, and the return of Vrbata was our turnover. Oh, and three players who were expected to play significant roles were returned to the A in Turris, Boedker, and Tikhonov.

Let's stop pretending that Tocchet's roster turnover was far greater than what Tippett's was cause it almost sounds like that is an excuse for Tocchet's current failures. In fact, Tocchet had far better talent (albeit raw talent in some cases), so his job should be easier than what Tippett's was.

Let's just say that I am not advocating firing Tocchet, nor do I think that we will continue on the awful path of hockey that we are currently mired in. When we look like we have gotten worse yet added talent, that's disheartening.
I don't think anyone has said "that Tocchet's roster turnover was far greater than what Tippett's was",or was saying negative things and not applying the roster turnover excuse then though. It's not like 5 games into 2009 people were saying Tip is awful and should be fired regardless of the big changes, and those same people are giving Tocc a pass because of roster turnover 7 years later. No one was criticizing Tip in that season, that came much later, and even then I don't think I've ever seen anyone criticize his first year here. If you're trying to say there's a double standard when applying the roster turnover excuse then I disagree.

If you're just stating that Tip did well with a roster that was very diffserent than the year before and Tocc so far hasn't, then I guess I agree, but those new players under Tip aren't rookies or 2nd year players(raw as you stated). He did have less talent overall, but also had solid goaltending and a veteran laden roster. It's not a completely comparable situation imo.

If your point is Tip's 1st 5 games were better than Tocc's than I agree, but I don't think anyone here would disagree. Who here wasn't a big Tippett fan in year 1? I feel like either I'm missing something here, or you're arguing against something no one has said.
 

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