Pre-Game Talk: Game #23: Vancouver Canucks vs. Florida Panthers - Tuesday, Nov. 17th 7:00PM - SNET-P

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bure 96

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Sep 6, 2013
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Weise should be taking Sestito's spot. Sestito can't fight, is bad defensively, and doesn't do much out there.

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Mr. Canucklehead

Kitimat Canuck
Dec 14, 2002
39,961
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The term must win at the 22 game mark is a tad overkill but ya it's pretty important not to lose too much ground here, 3 points behind the # 8 team in the conference and that team has 3 games in hand.

Their luck should change right?

It seems like every year, this is the thinking around the 20-game, 40-game, 60-game marks, etc. "oh they don't matter yet". But at the end of the year, there's always a team that came this close despite some insane run at the end of the year, and they look back and go "if only we'd been better at the start/quarter mark/middle mark/etc".

Bottom line - they may not feel important now, but a win in November is worth the same as a win in March.

(this comment isn't directed at you so much as the point of view in general)
 

opendoor

Registered User
Dec 12, 2006
11,719
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opendoor and MS are both suggesting we're losing games because of goaltending lately.

No, it's more that they're not winning games on the back of their goaltending which is worrying given the amount of resources they've devoted to that area.

Here's the percentage of Canucks games over the last few seasons where their goaltending kept the opposition to either 1 or 0 GF:

10-11: 39.0%
11-12: 30.5%
12-13: 37.5%
13-14: 9.1%

Sure on any given night it's a little much to expect a shutout or a 1 GA game, but when it basically never happens, there's something wrong. Given how much the Canucks are controlling the play this year, I don't think it's the least bit unreasonable to expect the goalies to almost completely shut down the opposition once every 3-4 games on average instead of the once every 11 games they've done it so far this season.

Obviously their scoring is a huge issue as well, but it's a separate one. And even with the scoring drying up, the goaltending should still be able to get them the odd point. Like I said in the other thread, the Canucks got 14 points in 48 games last season in games where they scored 1 or 0 goals; so far this year they have 1 point through 22 games.
 

arsmaster*

Guest
No, it's more that they're not winning games on the back of their goaltending which is worrying given the amount of resources they've devoted to that area.

In terms of caphit?

We're just above $6m. Doesn't seem like an outrageous amount, quite a few teams pay more.

Here's the percentage of Canucks games over the last few seasons where their goaltending kept the opposition to either 1 or 0 GF:

10-11: 39.0%
11-12: 30.5%
12-13: 37.5%
13-14: 9.1%

Interesting, I just don't see why it matters. I prefer to pull the undefeated in regulation when scoring two or more.


Sure on any given night it's a little much to expect a shutout or a 1 GA game, but when it basically never happens, there's something wrong. Given how much the Canucks are controlling the play this year, I don't think it's the least bit unreasonable to expect the goalies to almost completely shut down the opposition once every 3-4 games on average instead of the once every 11 games they've done it so far this season.
Wasn't Lu tied for the lead in shutouts as of yesterday?

Obviously their scoring is a huge issue as well, but it's a separate one. And even with the scoring drying up, the goaltending should still be able to get them the odd point. Like I said in the other thread, the Canucks got 14 points in 48 games last season in games where they scored 1 or 0 goals; so far this year they have 1 point through 22 games.

I don't even know why that matters. I really don't. Seems arbitrary.

I could care less how many points we get when we don't score, I care more about scoring.

When we score 2 or more (13 games) we're 11-0-2

When we score less we're 0-8-1

We score 1 or less 41% of the time, thats awful.

It's plain and simple, when we score we pick up points, when we only score 1, we don't.

Goaltending didn't sink us against the Kings, Ducks, Blue Jackets, Stars or the most recent Sharks game. I can't recall the other games, but SCORING IS THE PROBLEM.

We are losing games because we can't score.
 

y2kcanucks

Le Sex God
Aug 3, 2006
71,229
10,319
Surrey, BC
In terms of caphit?

We're just above $6m. Doesn't seem like an outrageous amount, quite a few teams pay more.



Interesting, I just don't see why it matters. I prefer to pull the undefeated in regulation when scoring two or more.



Wasn't Lu tied for the lead in shutouts as of yesterday?



I don't even know why that matters. I really don't. Seems arbitrary.

I could care less how many points we get when we don't score, I care more about scoring.

When we score 2 or more (13 games) we're 11-0-2

When we score less we're 0-8-1

We score 1 or less 41% of the time, thats awful.

It's plain and simple, when we score we pick up points, when we only score 1, we don't.

Goaltending didn't sink us against the Kings, Ducks, Blue Jackets, Stars or the most recent Sharks game. I can't recall the other games, but SCORING IS THE PROBLEM.

We are losing games because we can't score.

I guess it's our goalies fault we can't score. If only we had Brodeur we'd have a goal scoring goalie who can contribute on the PP.

Hopefully Luongo does his job tomorrow and provides some secondary scoring. If he doesn't, well let's not blame our top line because our goalie didn't produce the secondary scoring they need. :sarcasm:
 

Hardyvan123

tweet@HardyintheWack
Jul 4, 2010
17,552
24
Vancouver
It seems like every year, this is the thinking around the 20-game, 40-game, 60-game marks, etc. "oh they don't matter yet". But at the end of the year, there's always a team that came this close despite some insane run at the end of the year, and they look back and go "if only we'd been better at the start/quarter mark/middle mark/etc".

Bottom line - they may not feel important now, but a win in November is worth the same as a win in March.

(this comment isn't directed at you so much as the point of view in general)

I agree with this, a win is needed quite quickly here as it's hard to make up ground with all of those 3 point games as well but at the 1/4 way mark must win isn't the term I would use, that's all.
 

y2kcanucks

Le Sex God
Aug 3, 2006
71,229
10,319
Surrey, BC
It seems like every year, this is the thinking around the 20-game, 40-game, 60-game marks, etc. "oh they don't matter yet". But at the end of the year, there's always a team that came this close despite some insane run at the end of the year, and they look back and go "if only we'd been better at the start/quarter mark/middle mark/etc".

Bottom line - they may not feel important now, but a win in November is worth the same as a win in March.

(this comment isn't directed at you so much as the point of view in general)

Oh definitely. The Canucks may only be 3 points out of a playoff spot now with 60 games to make up for it, but by the end of the season those 3 points could be the difference. Time to start winning.
 

Pure West

Registered User
Oct 3, 2005
1,964
230
Vancouver
No, it's more that they're not winning games on the back of their goaltending which is worrying given the amount of resources they've devoted to that area.

Here's the percentage of Canucks games over the last few seasons where their goaltending kept the opposition to either 1 or 0 GF:

10-11: 39.0%
11-12: 30.5%
12-13: 37.5%
13-14: 9.1%

Sure on any given night it's a little much to expect a shutout or a 1 GA game, but when it basically never happens, there's something wrong. Given how much the Canucks are controlling the play this year, I don't think it's the least bit unreasonable to expect the goalies to almost completely shut down the opposition once every 3-4 games on average instead of the once every 11 games they've done it so far this season.

Obviously their scoring is a huge issue as well, but it's a separate one. And even with the scoring drying up, the goaltending should still be able to get them the odd point. Like I said in the other thread, the Canucks got 14 points in 48 games last season in games where they scored 1 or 0 goals; so far this year they have 1 point through 22 games.

We'll have to see how that stat plays out the rest of the year and I agree with some of what you said. Last season, and about half of 2011-2012 the team was way too reliant on goaltending to win them games. This season, not so much.... but I don't think you can deny that the Canucks are playing a more aggressive game leading to trading chances which you probably would have noticed early on last night.

Luongo hasn't been spectacular, he's had a handful of games were you could say he was a difference-maker...but on the other side I think he's been steadier and less inconsistent in his performance than in years past. He's not a vezina contender anymore, particularly considering the team doesn't really get outplayed/chanced that often where he has an opportunity to steal games. I still prefer this team's chances this season even with average goaltending over the one the 100 or so games prior.
 

Lundface*

Guest
I guess it's our goalies fault we can't score. If only we had Brodeur we'd have a goal scoring goalie who can contribute on the PP.

Hopefully Luongo does his job tomorrow and provides some secondary scoring. If he doesn't, well let's not blame our top line because our goalie didn't produce the secondary scoring they need. :sarcasm:

The way the season has gone so far:

Offence: creating a ton of chances/shots, not able to score. Have had a lot of pressure but are missing chances, they need to improve on scoring

Defence: stellar, really limiting the oppositions chances and shots on goal. Honestly the best I've seen this team defensively in a long time, might have a lot to do with them not being asked to do everything like they were under AV (hence why they have been healthier, strain is no on the forwards to forecheck hard and backcheck as hard to maintain gaps....all while having to come deep into their end to breakout)

Contrast that to our stretched out breakouts from last season where the d was forced to hurry up ice after a neutral zone tip in, off a stretch pass, to cover the gap.

Goaltending: average, save the easy shots but not stopping enough of the few scoring chances they face. Routinely being outplayed by the opposition and they'll need to be better. Schneider provided the team with elite goaltending, even last year and the year before in systems that were much harder to play in. Luongo also was able to do this in earlier years, but his level appears to be dropping

Which part of this is inaccurate?
 

Wetcoaster

Guest
Ignoring the fact that Thomas was on the winning side of that series, I was just appalled at how he managed to come out of that looking like the good guy whereas Luongo was cast in the villain's light. On Luongo's side of the ledger, you have the "pumping tires" thing. On Thomas's side, you have him throwing checks at incoming forwards (which is a penalty, but wasn't called) hacking at opposing players with his stick and then fighting them, etc. etc...to say nothing of his eventual nutjob views on the world that came out later.

I want this guy lit up. Hard. The offense needs to put its foot on the gas pedal for this one.
Strombone‏@strombone1
Just at Canadian Tire picking up a few essentials for tomorrow's big tilt.......

BZZEPViCQAEPHlY.jpg
https://twitter.com/strombone1/status/402584247015194624/photo/1
 

Vankiller Whale

Fire Benning
May 12, 2012
28,802
16
Toronto
Schneider provided the team with elite goaltending, even last year and the year before in systems that were much harder to play in. Luongo also was able to do this in earlier years, but his level appears to be dropping

Which part of this is inaccurate?

Schneider did not consistently provide the team with elite goaltending - his start of the season last year was worse than Luongo's this year imo. He was also a huge part of our playoff exit. Luongo was much better at the start of last season as well as in the playoffs.

Luongo has been below his usual standards this year, but it's far from a reason to assume he won't round into form, and bringing up Schneider doesn't really do anything either.
 

Upoil

Zaboomafoo
Aug 8, 2010
995
265
Bermuda
I guess it's our goalies fault we can't score. If only we had Brodeur we'd have a goal scoring goalie who can contribute on the PP.

Hopefully Luongo does his job tomorrow and provides some secondary scoring. If he doesn't, well let's not blame our top line because our goalie didn't produce the secondary scoring they need. :sarcasm:

Do you intentionally ignore what the posts say? Nobody I've seen is giving the skaters a pass. They are saying that we need more from the entire lineup, Lou included.

Perceived playoff teams are getting points in games when they only score 1-2 goals. We are not.
 

Wetcoaster

Guest
The Canucks are currently 3 points out of a play-off spot in the West.

In the East they would be tied in points for second place, 3 points out of first in the East. :amazed:
 

arsmaster*

Guest
The way the season has gone so far:

Offence: creating a ton of chances/shots, not able to score. Have had a lot of pressure but are missing chances, they need to improve on scoring

Defence: stellar, really limiting the oppositions chances and shots on goal. Honestly the best I've seen this team defensively in a long time, might have a lot to do with them not being asked to do everything like they were under AV (hence why they have been healthier, strain is no on the forwards to forecheck hard and backcheck as hard to maintain gaps....all while having to come deep into their end to breakout)

Contrast that to our stretched out breakouts from last season where the d was forced to hurry up ice after a neutral zone tip in, off a stretch pass, to cover the gap.

Goaltending: average, save the easy shots but not stopping enough of the few scoring chances they face. Routinely being outplayed by the opposition and they'll need to be better. Schneider provided the team with elite goaltending, even last year and the year before in systems that were much harder to play in. Luongo also was able to do this in earlier years, but his level appears to be dropping

Which part of this is inaccurate?

Inaccurate is that the goaltending has fallen off. Also that the d has been stellar. Team defense has been great, the blueline not so much IMO.

Either way. I really like how we're playing. Just need to put the puck in the net.
 

Lundface*

Guest
Schneider did not consistently provide the team with elite goaltending - his start of the season last year was worse than Luongo's this year imo. He was also a huge part of our playoff exit. Luongo was much better at the start of last season as well as in the playoffs.

Luongo has been below his usual standards this year, but it's far from a reason to assume he won't round into form, and bringing up Schneider doesn't really do anything either.
Despite his start he finished with a .927%, elite numbers. The season before that a .937%

Luongo in comparison has posted .919% and .909% on the exact same teams. This season he is at .912%.

I think his numbers will improve, but a lot of that has to do with the fact that he's playing on a goaltender friendly team right now. He isn't being asked to do much right now, and is still posting below average numbers. There has been no difference between his play and his backup rookie, and it may be a matter of time before Lack overtakes him too.
 

Timmer44

Registered User
Mar 3, 2006
3,558
155
Van City
The Canucks are currently 3 points out of a play-off spot in the West.

In the East they would be tied in points for second place, 3 points out of first in the East. :amazed:

Canucks have benefited from an easier division for a while now. May as well beat the best if you want to be the best. It's easier to gauge where they're at when competing against the leagues elite night in and night out.

As a season ticket holder, I love it. Finally, every game matters. Kind of a first world problem, but more adversity and meaningful games will mean a better atmosphere and more enjoyment at the games.
 

opendoor

Registered User
Dec 12, 2006
11,719
1,403
In terms of caphit?

We're just above $6m. Doesn't seem like an outrageous amount, quite a few teams pay more.

The only reason it's that low is because of Luongo's contract length. He's paid like a top 3 goalie and the Canucks are going to be dealing with a cap hit from him until 2022. Luongo's contract makes him the most important player on the team.

Interesting, I just don't see why it matters. I prefer to pull the undefeated in regulation when scoring two or more.

You don't see why the team keeping the opposition to 1 or 0 goals at 1/4 the rate of last season matters? When your goalie does that it's basically guaranteed points and they haven't been doing that like they have in previous years.

That stat about them winning when they score 2 in regulation might be more impactful if they'd actually won a single regulation game while only scoring two goals, but as it stands, their goal output in their regulation wins has been about 4 G/G.

Wasn't Lu tied for the lead in shutouts as of yesterday?


I don't even know why that matters. I really don't. Seems arbitrary.

I could care less how many points we get when we don't score, I care more about scoring.

When we score 2 or more (13 games) we're 11-0-2

When we score less we're 0-8-1

Given that 10 of those 11 wins came with them scoring 3+ goals, I'm not sure that stat really makes a strong case. It could just as easily be expressed as:

3+ GF: 10-0-1

2 or fewer GF: 1-8-2


And that could be taken to mean that if they haven't scored 3+ GF this season they haven't had a hope. That hasn't been the case in previous years. Here's last year for instance:

3+ GF: 15-3-2

2 or fewer GF: 11-12-5

So basically a .500 record when scoring 2 or fewer goals.


We score 1 or less 41% of the time, thats awful.

It's plain and simple, when we score we pick up points, when we only score 1, we don't.

Goaltending didn't sink us against the Kings, Ducks, Blue Jackets, Stars or the most recent Sharks game. I can't recall the other games, but SCORING IS THE PROBLEM.

We are losing games because we can't score.

Of course their scoring has been bad this year and has been the primary issue in their recent slump, but that doesn't mean the team's mediocre goaltending isn't worthy of criticism. And to be honest, I find the scoring a little less worrying because there are far more moving parts and possible solutions to their struggles. That and the fact that up until 4 games ago they'd been scoring almost 3 goals per game. On the other hand, if Luongo keeps struggling the Canucks don't really have a conceivable solution.
 

Vankiller Whale

Fire Benning
May 12, 2012
28,802
16
Toronto
Despite his start he finished with a .927%, elite numbers. The season before that a .937%

Luongo in comparison has posted .919% and .909% on the exact same teams. This season he is at .912%.

I think his numbers will improve, but a lot of that has to do with the fact that he's playing on a goaltender friendly team right now. He isn't being asked to do much right now, and is still posting below average numbers. There has been no difference between his play and his backup rookie, and it may be a matter of time before Lack overtakes him too.

Numbers in a shortened season are very iffy to use. Two blowouts - Detroit + Edmonton - where AV refused to pull him, have a much bigger impact on his numbers than in a full season. I don't think that there was a significant difference between Luongo's half where he posted .940+ sv% and league leading GAA and Schneider's 2nd half.

I also don't think it's reasonable to assume that Luongo's play deteriotated so dramatically within one year to find it unreasonable to expect a similar stretch from him at some point this season.
 

arsmaster*

Guest
Despite his start he finished with a .927%, elite numbers. The season before that a .937%

Luongo in comparison has posted .919% and .909% on the exact same teams. This season he is at .912%.

I think his numbers will improve, but a lot of that has to do with the fact that he's playing on a goaltender friendly team right now. He isn't being asked to do much right now, and is still posting below average numbers. There has been no difference between his play and his backup rookie, and it may be a matter of time before Lack overtakes him too.

Goaltender friendly my ass. They score 1 or less 41% of the time.

The chances they give up are also pretty high scoring opportunities.

I hate save % as a basis for argument. Schneider gave it to us and also allowed 9 goals in the 5 periods he played in a Canuck uni.
 
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