Post-Game Talk: Game #20: Ducks 3, Canucks 1 - Petition to move into Metropolitan division

Ducks

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Question: Is ANA a cup contender? If so, who do they have on their 2nd line? DSP-Perrault-Selanne? If not, they're doing pretty damned good for not being one. They also stack their top line.

Anaheim has a lot of injuries at the moment, and beyond the current injured roster have dealt with a lot of injuries to key players so far this season:

Getzlaf
Silfverberg
Koivu
Souray
Beleskey
Fasth

If the team can ever get healthy, which they haven't been yet this season, they will be running 4 lines that can score, and have Souray adding to the defense. Hope that answers your question.
 

canucksfan

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If the Sedins don't do well the team doesn't do well. There will be games where the Sedins are off or don't score. That will be expected. The 2nd line has to do better. Yes, they are missing Hansen, Booth and Weise, however, Dale is a 4th liner, Booth has shown nothing at the NHL level the past two seasons.

You can't fault the Sedins, they can't score very game.
 

canucksfan

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The primary scoring failed, obviously, as did the 2nd line scoring. But seeing as we know that Beast Modo is a great line and will produce far more often than not, it makes much more sense to address the 2nd line which is a lot more questionable in terms of how consistently they bring offense.

All teams off the top of my head that have better 2nd lines than Higgins-Santorelli-Burrows. And if we look at only playoff teams we match up even worse.

Eaxctly this. What worries me, is Torts is playing Sedins, Kesler a lot of minutes. I doubt they can sustain the level of play while getting those minutes for the whole season.
 

canuck4life16

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I wonder if the team would bring up Jensen or Grenier and sent down Archiband? we should give them another shot in the NHL
 

Bleach Clean

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Anaheim has a lot of injuries at the moment, and beyond the current injured roster have dealt with a lot of injuries to key players so far this season:

Getzlaf
Silfverberg
Koivu
Souray
Beleskey
Fasth

If the team can ever get healthy, which they haven't been yet this season, they will be running 4 lines that can score, and have Souray adding to the defense. Hope that answers your question.


I think they are, but others that will look at your team's secondary scoring will not. Particularly, your 2nd line. Which leads me to...



No, I don't consider them a cup contender, and they are just as prone to a failure to produce by the top line as we are. If Corey Perry had been playing cold as well, then I highly doubt they'd have won this game.


Then your definition of what constitutes a contender is too strict. So ANA isn't a cup contender. Hmmm. Finished 3rd in the regular season last year, tops in the league so far...?

Follow up: Is COL a contender?

I think you really underrate Higgins-Santorelli-Burrows. A lot of the 2nd lines on those teams have name players on them. I don't care about names, I care about effectiveness. Are you sure those lines are more effective than that trio? (Given a return to average production from Burrows, of course). Edit: Just to hammer this point further, currently, Santorelli is 35th in ES scoring at present (tied with Tavares). Higgins is 51st overall. So these "subpar 2nd liners" are producing at a top60 rate at ES. 1st line numbers.
 
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canucksfan

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I think they are, but others that will look at your team's secondary scoring will not. Particularly, your 2nd line. Which leads me to...






Then your definition of what constitutes a contender is too strict. So ANA isn't a cup contender. Hmmm. Finished 3rd in the regular season last year, tops in the league so far...?

Follow up: Is COL a contender?

I think you really underrate Higgins-Santorelli-Burrows. A lot of the 2nd lines on those teams have name players on them. I don't care about names, I care about effectiveness. Are you sure those lines are more effective than that trio? (Given a return to average production from Burrows, of course).

This line is not good enough offensively for a 2nd line. I would switch Burrows and Kesler and see if that works.
 

Vankiller Whale

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Then your definition of what constitutes a contender is too strict. So ANA isn't a cup contender. Hmmm. Finished 3rd in the regular season last year, tops in the league so far...?

Follow up: Is COL a contender?

I think you really underrate Higgins-Santorelli-Burrows. A lot of the 2nd lines on those teams have name players on them. I don't care about names, I care about effectiveness. Are you sure those lines are more effective than that trio? (Given a return to average production from Burrows, of course).

Colorado is a contender as long as their goaltending holds up. Anaheim has a lot of moving pieces, but I suppose depending on whether or not Koivu replicates last year's very good season and if one or more of Silfverberg/Etem/Palmieri become solid top-6 contributors, then I suppose they might go deep this year, although personally I'm still leaning towards no.

Don't forget last year's Ducks had Bobby Ryan on the 2nd line as well.

In a small sample size Higgins-Santorelli-Burrows had a brief bout of effectiveness. However I don't think Santorelli will keep up his ~50 point pace, and I don't think that Burrows can return to his "average" production when his average production is based off of him playing with the Sedins rather than with two likely 20 goal 20 assist guys, and I think it's likely Burrows puts up similar numbers as well.
 

Bleach Clean

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This line is not good enough offensively for a 2nd line. I would switch Burrows and Kesler and see if that works.

Yet, they have all produced at a 2nd line rate overall, and a 1st line rate at ES (barring Burrows's return to form).

I think people are looking too much for a reason to deride that line instead of recognizing what they are actually contributing.
 

canucksfan

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Yet, they have all produced at a 2nd line rate overall, and a 1st line rate at ES (barring Burrows's return to form).

I think people are looking too much for a reason to deride that line instead of recognizing what they are actually contributing.

I think they have been overachieving. Burrows returning to form was when he was playing with the Sedins. Higgins is a very good third liner and a below average second liner in his career. I doubt Santorelli can maintain his production.
 

Bleach Clean

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Colorado is a contender as long as their goaltending holds up. Anaheim has a lot of moving pieces, but I suppose depending on whether or not Koivu replicates last year's very good season and if one or more of Silfverberg/Etem/Palmieri become solid top-6 contributors, then I suppose they might go deep this year, although personally I'm still leaning towards no.

Don't forget last year's Ducks had Bobby Ryan on the 2nd line as well.

In a small sample size Higgins-Santorelli-Burrows had a brief bout of effectiveness. However I don't think Santorelli will keep up his ~50 point pace, and I don't think that Burrows can return to his "average" production when his average production is based off of him playing with the Sedins rather than with two likely 20 goal 20 assist guys, and I think it's likely Burrows puts up similar numbers as well.


Alright, it's good I have you on record, let's see how it goes. ANA and COL being the litmus tests.

You don't think Santorelli can keep up what he has done, but your comments are more about what the 2nd line has done to this point isn't it? Same with Burrows. About what he is about to do rather than what he has shown to be able to do. If Burrows gets 35 ES points, that puts him on the cusp of the top90 for regular season forward scoring. 1st line rate. Where Hansen finished in Edit: 2011-2012 (last full year). That would be pretty strong 2nd line production. Everything about that is strictly about the PP.
 
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Bleach Clean

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I think they have been overachieving. Burrows returning to form was when he was playing with the Sedins. Higgins is a very good third liner and a below average second liner in his career. I doubt Santorelli can maintain his production.



So what you are saying is that Burrows is a 3rd liner without the twins?

Higgins was 107th in ES scoring in 2011-2012 (last full season). Top end of 2nd line scoring...

Santorelli maintaining production is what everyone is wondering. But we are talking about what that 2nd line has done to this point, not what they could potentially do.
 

Vankiller Whale

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Alright, it's good I have you on record, let's see how it goes. ANA and COL being the litmus tests.

You don't think Santorelli can keep up what he has done, but your comments are more about what the 2nd line has done to this point isn't it? Same with Burrows. About what he is about to do rather than what he has shown to be able to do. If Burrows gets 35 ES points, that puts him on the cusp of the top90 for regular season forward scoring. 1st line rate. Where Hansen finished last year. That would be pretty strong 2nd line production. Everything about that is strictly about the PP.

Santorelli has done nothing these past two games. Games we only scored 1 goal in. If Santorelli produces at a fairly consistent rate in most games, then I would be satisfied. He did so for a brief period at the start of the season, but him tapering off now makes me more inclined to believe his production is regressing to the norm rather than a brief dry spell before he starts producing at a 50+ point rate again.

Having a 2nd line made up of 3 35 ES point players isn't a competitive 2nd line compared to lines that boast Sharp and Hossa, or Couture and Marleau, or Bergeron and Iginla, or Richards and Carter. Even though our 1st line might be better, it leaves us far more vulnerable to an "off" game by that line. And if the Sedin line goes cold for even one playoff series in this years run, we're toast. Because three 35 ES producers isn't going to be able to make up the difference.
 

canucksfan

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So what you are saying is that Burrows is a 3rd liner without the twins?

Higgins was 107th in ES scoring in 2011-2012 (last full season). Top end of 2nd line scoring...

Santorelli maintaining production is what everyone is wondering. But we are talking about what that 2nd line has done to this point, not what they could potentially do.

I don't know what Burrows is without the Twins because it rarely happens. Small sample size. I don't think he's a first liner without the Twins but definitely a second liner.

Being on the second line should also come with PP production. That line is a poor PP line because it lacks skill. Higgins is a fringe second liner. He has 15 points in 41 games last year.

Potential is a huge portion though. I am not confident with a Higgins-Burrows-Santoriell 2nd line.
 

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I get what you're trying to say but the Tanev and Richardson examples are brutal. Richardson has been an awesome fourth liner and if you expect Tanev to be scoring goals for us then yes we are in trouble.

Gillis is not a serious threat in the offseason. Coming off getting swept, and you sign a player that was scratched in 27/29 games for LA. And any chance of dominance in the O-zone dies with Tanev. Fakes shot, doesn't pass, weak ass shot that gets blocked without effort, and the play is dead. Corrado is so much better. Flames fans in the Trade sections are drooling over Tanev, with some massive canuck haters having great desire for Tanev. Cammalleri is perfect for this team, but Gillis will instead hope for Hansen and Schroeder :laugh: to be our saviors
 

canuck4life16

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I think it time for Kesler to play center again.......don't think we have much choice until we find a Jeff Carter like player
 

Bleach Clean

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Santorelli has done nothing these past two games. Games we only scored 1 goal in. If Santorelli produces at a fairly consistent rate in most games, then I would be satisfied. He did so for a brief period at the start of the season, but him tapering off now makes me more inclined to believe his production is regressing to the norm rather than a brief dry spell before he starts producing at a 50+ point rate again.

Having a 2nd line made up of 3 35 ES point players isn't a competitive 2nd line compared to lines that boast Sharp and Hossa, or Couture and Marleau, or Bergeron and Iginla, or Richards and Carter. Even though our 1st line might be better, it leaves us far more vulnerable to an "off" game by that line. And if the Sedin line goes cold for even one playoff series in this years run, we're toast. Because three 35 ES producers isn't going to be able to make up the difference.


You know VKW, I'm literally laughing right now. My sides are splitting. I'm not kidding. Three 35 point ES scorers in 2011-2012:

Cory Perry, Dustin Brown, Shane Down, and David Backes for good measure. Further, Sam Gagner and Derek Stepan.

I have to really question your understanding of scoring as it relates to the NHL/reality. I'm really just at a loss for words about it. :cry:




Santorelli producing at a "consistent rate" doesn't jive with a 50 point pace. A 50 point producer is by definition inconsistent. He's going to have 32 games, at least, where he doesn't produce anything. If Santorelli simply repeats what he does for every 20 game block, he's 45 point ES scorer. That's top40 production at ES. Forget 2nd line, that's upper end 1st line production.

I really think the lack of PP production is tripping you up in your entire analysis.



I don't know what Burrows is without the Twins because it rarely happens. Small sample size. I don't think he's a first liner without the Twins but definitely a second liner.

Being on the second line should also come with PP production. That line is a poor PP line because it lacks skill. Higgins is a fringe second liner. He has 15 points in 41 games last year.

Potential is a huge portion though. I am not confident with a Higgins-Burrows-Santoriell 2nd line.


So Burrows is a 2nd liner. Ok, that's one down.

Higgins had 15 ES points in 41 games, which put him at 175 in forward production last year. Just inside the top180. So I can buy the "fringe" argument for last year. He produced the same amount as Lupul, Alfredsson and Stastny. The year before that, he was on the upper end top120.

Being on the 2nd line does require a certain level of PP production, I agree, but the PP is an altogether different beast than ES production. If people were just worried about the PP production in these arguments, then the talk wouldn't be as alarming. You also don't have to have confidence in the line. That's fair. All I'm commenting on is what they have done. To this point, 2nd line production has been very good over a 20 game sample.
 
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strattonius

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Our issue is converting on the PP. Even strength we are light years better than last year (this is promising thinking about the playoffs). And our PK goes without saying - we are #1.

Overall we are playing and looking much better than last year. Sedins are rejuvenated, Luongo is focused and we have a different hero from our defense every other game. I'm not really sure what the fuss is about - we just played the most difficult 4 game road trip of the year. Now we have a whack load of home games against lesser teams and a team that is really buying in to Tortorella's system.

Right now I'm just really happy with this team. When I come in to these PGT's and it's the same posters saying the exact same things we've heard the last 2 years (we're doomed!!!!!) after a game we lost it's just a tired, saggy narrative....Looks hopeless really.
 

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I don't think anything has changed for us all year. I think we're an OK team that has struggled all season to win games in regulation. We have legitimate problems on the powerplay and are lacking in offensive weapons. We have been a little lucky in that we've managed to receive more scoring depth than expected thanks to Mike Santorelli, Chris Higgins and Brad Richardson, but this was not sustainable. Richardson had scored goals on 30% of his shots for goodness sakes; that wasn't going to continue.

I think that the salary cap has made it so that most teams are pretty equal, though [in the West] and we can point to similarly-sized problems with just about every team. This was a tough off-season with the cap going down and I think almost every team struggled to fill their gaps. In the end I do think we need to add another offensive weapon of some kind, if for no other reason than to fix the damned powerplay, but still, getting the right breaks can literally be the difference between home-ice in the playoffs and missing it altogether. Welcome to the new NHL.
 

Vankiller Whale

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You know VKW, I'm literally laughing right now. My sides are splitting. I'm not kidding. Three 35 point ES scorers in 2011-2012:

Cory Perry, Dustin Brown, Shane Down, and David Backes for good measure. Further, Sam Gagner and Derek Stepan.

I have to really question your understanding of scoring as it relates to the NHL/reality. I'm really just at a loss for words about it. :cry:

I wouldn't be laughing if I seriously thought Higgins-Santorelli-Burrows was as potent offensively as a line of say, Perry-Backes-Brown.

While I'm sure it's nice to ignore PP ability, or that Perry was having a down year, or that Gagner or Stepan were young players who hadn't truly broken out yet, I think I must in turn question your ability to evaluate and compare players in terms of their offensive ability.


Santorelli producing at a "consistent rate" doesn't jive with a 50 point pace. A 50 point producer is by definition inconsistent. He's going to have 32 games, at least, where he doesn't produce anything. If Santorelli simply repeats what he does for every 20 game block, he's 45 point ES scorer. That's top40 production at ES. Forget 2nd line, that's upper end 1st line production.

I really think the lack of PP production is tripping you up in your entire analysis.

I don't think the bolded will happen. That's my issue with rolling with a line of Higgins-Santorelli-Burrows and then being surprised when the team struggles to score more than a goal when the Sedin line isn't producing.

Why would them not being able to produce on the power play improve my view of the 2nd line?
 

ShouldveDraftedFiala

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I think it time for Kesler to play center again.......don't think we have much choice until we find a Jeff Carter like player

Ew. Keep the offensive black hole to the wing please. Santorelli has proved that he's 5x the centre Kesler is already, and he's still best suited for the 3rd.

What we really need is to trade Edler or Kesler, or both, and bring in a proper 2nd line.
 

canucksfan

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So Burrows is a 2nd liner. Ok, that's one down.

Higgins had 15 ES points in 41 games, which put him at 175 in forward production last year. Just inside the top180. So I can buy the "fringe" argument for last year. He produced the same amount as Lupul, Alfredsson and Stastny. The year before that, he was on the upper end top120.

Being on the 2nd line does require a certain level of PP production, I agree, but the PP is an altogether different beast than ES production. If people were just worried about the PP production in these arguments, then the talk wouldn't be as alarming. You also don't have to have confidence in the line. That's fair. All I'm commenting on is what they have done. To this point, 2nd line production has been very good over a 20 game sample.

I would switch Burrows and Kesler. Burrows plays his best with the Sedins. He has played 8 games so far and has 0 goals. In order to be considered a 2nd line player, the player has to produce on the PP or have a a crazy good ES point production. Higgins doesn't have that. I think with two excellent 2nd liners, Higgins would be okay on the second line. However, Burrows I believe is an average 2nd liner and Santorelli is still unknown. He could barely crack an NHL roster last year.
 

Bleach Clean

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I wouldn't be laughing if I seriously thought Higgins-Santorelli-Burrows was as potent offensively as a line of say, Perry-Backes-Brown.

While I'm sure it's nice to ignore PP ability, or that Perry was having a down year, or that Gagner or Stepan were young players who hadn't truly broken out yet, I think I must in turn question your ability to evaluate and compare players in terms of their offensive ability.


That's the difference between not looking at names and looking simply at effectiveness. It's why I framed the argument with a 35 point ES value for Burrows, to get it away from talking about names.

Anyway, the production argument against that 2nd line, even in hypotheticals, has been crushed IMO. The ES production has been there for Burrows and Higgins. Santorelli looks to be joining them. Clearly your issue is with PP production and not with a line scoring at ES, because as far as that goes, it's there for all to see and track. I'll let that point, and the point above, speak for themselves as I bow out of this portion of the discussion.


I don't think the bolded will happen. That's my issue with rolling with a line of Higgins-Santorelli-Burrows and then being surprised when the team struggles to score more than a goal when the Sedin line isn't producing.

Why would them not being able to produce on the power play improve my view of the 2nd line?


Santorelli doesn't have to keep it up. He could get worse, in fact, and still do the job. He can drop to the magic 35 ES points and still fulfill the job of a 2nd line C pretty well. Your entre argument hinges on PP production. At ES, there is no argument to be made against the 2nd line, as a line, from the existing information.
 

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