Game #2 : Kings @ Jets - 10/4/13 - 3-5L

[Ziggy Stardust]

Calling Ziggy come in Ziggy.

I thought you were going away until the playoffs rolled around? Please enlighten me as to how the bottom six players were at fault for tonight's loss. I'd love to hear your rationale.

 

[KingKopitar11*]

Only imbeciles would blame the bottom six for tonight's loss. Did you guys pay any attention to who was out there when the Jets scored? Oh hey, those weren't bottom six forwards putting the puck in the net for the Jets. What's that? King, Nolan, Fraser, Clifford were the only forwards to finish with an even +/- rating? How is that possible when they're at fault for this loss?

Maybe I should lose a few brain cells and be as fickle as some of you who like to blame these bottom line guys who were on the ice for 10 or less minutes and ignore the fact that everyone in the top 6 was a minus player, oh and that Muzzin guy that seems the need to be protected was a -3. Nope, let's ignore those facts and just blame the usual suspects who aren't doing anything positive or negative.

Perhaps you guys should pay attention to what is going on out there? You might learn something. The easy targets you guys pick on are a small part of a bigger problem. But hey, don't let it stop you lemmings from repeating each other like parrots.

Oh we all know Muzzin is trash, the bottom 6 is a topic we don't really discuss often, so it's more in focus after this loss.

By the way, Bottom 6 being flat effects the whole team. Our team isn't cohesive, if our bottom 6 isn't getting momentum then our top 6 won't either. A tone is set.

The bottom 6 got pinned the most in our zone.

And why are you so upset? It's just a hockey forum man.

 

[kingsholygrail]

Quick should have had the night off. He never plays well in back-to-backs. Never. The whole point of having Scrivens is for cases like tonight. I'm sure Quick wouldn't think his starting job would be threatened if he didn't have to play two nights in a row. He's not mentally soft.

Just meh. It's still a successful road stint. 2pts out of a B2B is always good.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

Oh we all know Muzzin is trash, the bottom 6 is a topic we don't really discuss often, so it's more in focus after this loss.

By the way, Bottom 6 being flat effects the whole team. Our team isn't cohesive, if our bottom 6 isn't getting momentum then our top 6 won't either. A tone is set.

The bottom 6 got pinned the most in our zone.

And why are you so upset? It's just a hockey forum man.

You guys are wasting time nitpicking players who have zero impact. What did the Wild bottom six do for them? Or the Jets? They're a dime a dozen. They're replaceable parts. They serve little purpose and it is a significant bonus to get any offensive contribution from those players.

Now a guy like Stoll or Lewis, I can see where more should be expected out of them when it comes to contributing more than a strong defensive effort. But guys like Clifford or Fraser or Nolan? I guess if you want Toffoli out there against other fourth line guys getting 10 or less mins of ice time it would do the trick, until he gets destroyed by a physical fourth line like the one we saw the Blues ice when they sent the CPR line out. Then you're going to be wondering why the Kings don't have tougher/bigger forwards out to match their physical play. It is a never ending cycle.

As for lines getting pinned most often, that appeared to be the Richards line. I think this constant rotation of Carter and Richards switching between center and wing is throwing them off. Carter takes a draw and is supposed to get back to his wing position and Richards is supposed to move back to center but that doesn't happen at times. Frattin is still adjusting and you can see it. Sometimes I'm seeing him leaving the zone before the puck does and they got trapped a few times. Lewis and Stoll also had some misreads as well, but most of the time it was due to the defensemen and forced errors that caused them to spend extra time inside their own end.

 

[Herby]

Only imbeciles would blame the bottom six for tonight's loss. Did you guys pay any attention to who was out there when the Jets scored? Oh hey, those weren't bottom six forwards putting the puck in the net for the Jets. What's that? King, Nolan, Fraser, Clifford were the only forwards to finish with an even +/- rating? How is that possible when they're at fault for this loss?

Maybe I should lose a few brain cells and be as fickle as some of you who like to blame these bottom line guys who were on the ice for 10 or less minutes and ignore the fact that everyone in the top 6 was a minus player, oh and that Muzzin guy that seems the need to be protected was a -3. Nope, let's ignore those facts and just blame the usual suspects who aren't doing anything positive or negative.

Perhaps you guys should pay attention to what is going on out there? You might learn something. The easy targets you guys pick on are a small part of a bigger problem. But hey, don't let it stop you lemmings from repeating each other like parrots.

Kopitar and Brown were minus players because they were out there for an EN goal. Williams was even and scored a PP goal.

Once again, like with last season the second line was out there for multiple goals against. This is another problem with the Kings, that Carter and Richards have serious issues defensively 5 on 5, no matter who the LW is. But atleast they can bounce back and put pucks in the net to make up for it, Stoll's line gives up a goal in the first period and you know they will never get it back. This team has now gone 20 games without getting an ES goal from the bottom six, you can call us imbeciles all you want, that's fine, but those are the facts.

20 games, think about that man.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

Kopitar and Brown were minus players because they were out there for an EN goal. Williams was even and scored a PP goal.

Once again, like with last season the second line was out there for multiple goals against. This is another problem with the Kings, that Carter and Richards have serious issues defensively 5 on 5, no matter who the LW is. But atleast they can bounce back and put pucks in the net to make up for it, Stoll's line gives up a goal in the first period and you know they will never get it back. This team has now gone 20 games without getting an ES goal from the bottom six, you can call us imbeciles all you want, that's fine, but those are the facts.

20 games, think about that man.

I'm indifferent with Stoll. I don't think he's going to last much longer due with the team due to his salary. He's not worth $3M anymore. But you're missing the point entirely. These guys keep bringing up names like Clifford and King and Fraser as if they're the reason the Kings are losing or getting stuck in their own end.

It is baffling to me how Muzzin, a player who continuously makes errors that puts his team in a bad position, still gets preferential treatment over a guy like Alec Martinez. That is what is mind boggling when it comes to lineup decisions.

Stoll is what he is and at his salary, the team is stuck playing him in his 3rd line center role. Where else are they going to put him?

 

[SettlementRichie10]

Couple things I disagree with, Tonelli. Firstly, I don't think Voynov is a number one. Not yet, anyway. He's becoming a bit overhyped. He had a stellar start last year with very favorable qualcomp, zone starts, and PP time, petered off toward the end of the reg season, and had a great playoffs. To put him in the same breath as Doughty by saying "they're both number ones" is overstating what Voynov is capable of and understating Doughty's impact. Voynov is maybe in the same ballpark as guys like Mcdonagh, Enstrom, etc. but he's not in the Weber/Karlsson/Doughty tier yet, not by a long shot.

Greene is now playing a fringe 4/5 position rather than his 5/6. Greene excels at the 5/6 because of his very limited skill set and protected ice time. We all love Greene and the intangibles he brings but when he's counted on to play more than limited third pairing minutes and PK, he's exposed. We've seen this time and time again with Greene over the last six years.

Then you throw in a guy like Regehr who is basically an older Greene at this point in his career and things start to get dicey. Mitchell cannot and should not be counted on to pick up the pieces because it's just plain old looking like he doesn't have the health or youthful energy to do that anymore. Everyone was heralding the return of Mitchell all summer as if he was just going to pick up where he left off in game six of the SCF and that was never realistic.

That's the worry I have. I don't see any prospect, especially Forbort, ready to step in an make an impact. If we're going to play Muzzin he should be playing with Doughty and therefore afforded the time and space for his skill set to shine. I'm not a huge Martinez cultist but hell the kid had a great camp and has a history with the team - why is he not playing over tired/injured/aging vets?

Sutter and by extension Lombardi's insistence on slow rolling the prospects has its cons just as its pros. The honest to god reality was that we caught lightning in a bottle in 11/12 with that 1-6 defensive core with every player in their perfect position and zero injuries. The injuries that have caught up to us since have exposed a lack of depth at that position, IMO. I don't want to open up THIS can of worms, but why Hickey was waived when he was still baffles me. If there is little faith in Martinez and Muzzin's development is so touch and go, why the hell was a kid like Hickey tossed out like yeaterday's trash? Doesn't make sense to me.

Honestly I'm not a fan of the bottom six but like Ziggy said blaming them is just missing the forest through the trees. Personally, I couldn't care less if King, Clifford, Fraser, and Nolan are in the lineup or not. The only redeemable players I see down there are Stoll and Lewis but that's just me.

At the end of the day, you're right. It's two freakin games into the season and every team is ironing out the kinks. Is there anyone in their right mind who really thinks the Wild or Jets are better than the Kings? Absolutely not. They're both fringe playoff teams with more potential than anything based in reality. This Kings team has been to the dance won it all and shotty defense or not will figure things out in the long run. I would yawn my way through a playoff series with either team because they just don't have the top end, game breaking, history will be made moment makers that the Kings do. Period. No offense to those teams - they're good and on the rise, but they're not the LA Kings.

My concerns are with the Sharks, Blues, Hawks, etc. of the west. My concerns lie in a VERY suspect defense that seems to have no immediate fix and foundationally unsound makeup with redundant players (Greene/Regehr), questionable health (Mitchell), and an all around exposable weakness (they're damn slow).

Just my .02. When it's panic time you'll get the full dollar.

 

[Herby]

Stoll was never worth 3 million. It was an awful signing, he should have been given the Penner offer, a one year contract to keep the band together and give him a chance to earn a new long term contract. Stoll does contribute some things to the Kings, but he isn't good enough to be a 3rd line center anymore, not in a system like the Kings that is built on strength down the middle.

The problem with the way the Kings are built right now is eventually they are going to run into a team that will be able to slow down the big lines, most great teams have either Selke caliber centers or Norris caliber defenders, some like Chicago have both, and matchups like that are going to once again be the Kings achilles heel because of the lack of secondary scoring.

As far as the fourth line and why some of us want the younger skilled guys...well yes in a perfect world you have tougher intimidating players in those roles, and that would be fine if the Kings got anything from their 3rd line, but as long as Stoll and Lewis continue to be offensive black holes the Kings don't have the luxury of not having a skilled fourth line. It just puts to much pressure on the top 2 lines and the PP. The Kings need to find some goals in the bottom six, and with Stoll and Lewis cemented in 3rd line roles, it's going to have to come from another line.

 

[Muzzinga]

I've been beating this drum since July 5th, 2013 and everyone has always scoffed at the idea. "We have 9 NHL ready defensemen." Okay, this is where you painfully learn that quantity does not equate to quality.

Right now, I see two bonafide top four defensemen on this team in Doughty and Voynov. Two. That's just not going to cut it in the long run. Regehr and Greene are completely redundant players and one of them needs to sit on a nightly basis in favor of some younger, quicker legs.

Mitchell is not replacing Scuderi because Mitchell is not the same player he was in 11/12. Maybe he "gets his game legs" by game 20 something, or maybe not? Maybe this is just the Mitchell we have now. Better than no Mitchell, I guess. But not when your other two defensive stalwarts are Greene and ****ing Regehr.

Two games in, overreaction, yadda yadda. I get it. But for those not acknowledging the current and potential future issues on the blueline really need to open their eyes. We have a very old and slow defense this season.

Mostly True.

Mitchell just needs time though, he is too smart of a player to just fall off a cliff, since he relies on positioning so much


If the Kings dump Regehr and play anyone, hell even just playing 5 dmen would be an improvement, the D Corps is solidly top 5 in the league

Its truely amazing how he anchors entire shifts in the defensive zone. The whole point of him being paired with Doughty is to protect him and let him do his thing, but that never ever happens, because Doughty is left chasing people in the defensive zone while Regehr gets beat time and time again

Sure he doesn't make any glaring mistakes like givaways that lead to goals, which is probably why he gets his ice time, but that doesn't matter when he bleeds shots and goals against because he can't do anything to clear a puck, gets beat in the neutral zone consistently, can't pinch at all to maintain offence and cant get the puck off other players

A little research shows that over the past 3 years, only 6 defensmen in the entire NHL that played over 2000 minutes, have a worse fenwick % than Regehr. He is worse than the defensive masters, Fowler and Johnson to name a couple

http://stats.hockeyanalysis.com/rat...00&teamid=0&type=fenwick&sort=PCT&sortdir=ASC

So we essentially have a guy who is as bad as Johnson on defence, and doesnt provide any offence, or ability to pas the puck whatsoever on our top pairing, and he is only going to get older, slower and worse. Sweet

 

[HolyShot*]

The problem boils down to one player, gents, and guess who that one player is? Anybody? Anybody?

 

[Herby]

The problem boils down to one player, gents, and guess who that one player is? Anybody? Anybody?

Stephane Fiset

 

[Steve Zissou]

The problem boils down to one player, gents, and guess who that one player is? Anybody? Anybody?

 

[KingKopitar11*]

I lold

 

[Eagle Fang]

Muzzin logged almost as much ice time as both Voynov and Mitchell. That's never a good thing and he ended up with a team worst -3.

Stoll-Lewis-King combined for all of 3 shots. Fraser's line had double that. They also had a grand total of 0 hits.

Outside of Doughty and Voynov, the defense couldn't connect on an outlet pass to save their lives. I don't know if the forwards aren't getting to where they need to be fast enough or our defensemen just suck at passing, but there were numerous times when passes out of the zone were too far ahead of the forward it was suppose to be going to. That really killed any transition out of the zone.

According to Quick, WPG had "3 cheesy goals". Sounded like he thought they got lucky on some of those shots due to rolling pucks.

Regehr and Greene are slower than dirt. I can't believe Regehr cost us 2x 2nd round picks and we have to watch him for two more seasons. Greene took some bad penalties, but I still like what he brings to the table. Led the team with 4 hits.

People can hate on Fraser-Nolan-Clifford all they want, but I thought they tried to bring some energy to a very lifeless team. Had the most hits of any line and scrummed it up quite a bit. They're 4th liners playing 6-8 minutes a night.

I agree with Herby about the issue of a more skilled 4th line due to the entrenchment of Stoll and Lewis, and King to a lesser extent. Sutter is starting to get a hard on for King. The more obvious solution would seem to be getting rid of a few of those third liners in favor of some of the rookies. If things continue, I wouldn't mind seeing Vey and Toffoli in place of Stoll and King. Obviously won't happen, but still..

Another issue I've noticed is that our defensemen don't pinch along the boards like they used to. I remember during the Cup run, they pinched like crazy and it led to tons of offensive zone time. I recall Hayward saying that LA pinched with reckless abandon and that they had so much confidence in one another. Don Cherry even pointed out how well LA cycled because the D would pinch in and a forward would cover, and it would just keep turning like a well oiled machine. I remember in last years PO run the 2 games that we dominated STL and SJ, the defensemen were aggressive along the boards. I think it was Gm 5 vs SJ, Matt Greene was an animal along the boards. What happened to all of that?

The team lost tonight due to several factors brought up by different people. All valid points and hopefully something that will be addressed before Monday.

 

[KingsFan7824]

Back to back road games, and the 2nd night they played a Jets team that was sitting at home waiting for them for 2 days. Still ended up a 1 goal game.

I am firmly in the cannot live and die with every shift/goal/mistake/period/game/win/loss category. Until this group shows a reason to be worried in the big picture, and the first 2 games of the season can't be the trigger on that, just let it play out.

2 out of 4 potential road points. You take it and move on.

 

[Haik]

I actually thought Mitchell looked a lot better than he did in game one. It's obvious he's having trouble with his foot speed but he's still sound positionally and his stick was there to break up a bunch of plays last night.

People need to lay off Muzzin imo. He doesn't look nearly as bad as Regehr/Greene in the D zone and he's a legit threat in the offensive zone. Speaking of Regehr.. yikes... I'd play Martinez over him at this point but that's never going to happen.

As far as our bottom 6 goes, I think Stoll needs to go. He contributes nothing on offense and completely drags down his line. I'd rather see Lewis center King and TT/TP.

 

[Haik]

Matt Frattin has been invisible the past two games. To be honest he reminds me a lot of Brad Richardson; has speed, can play along the boards and can put the puck in the net from time to time but nothing special. We cant expect much from Clifford when Sutter only gives him 10 minutes of ice time every game; Sutter has some sorta gay crush with some of the players like King, Muzzin, etc.

I disagree. I think Frattin brings a lot of speed to our second line and he's got a pretty good shot. We've already scored two goals off his rebounds. He's only going to get better.

 

[King'sPawn]

The problem with the bottom 6 Ziggy isn't that they are to blame for goals against. However, there is ZERO offensive threat. If they were more dangerous offensively, we would see either more goals from them or more open ice for the top 6. They aren't the reason, but they are a factor. Do you at least agree to that extent?

Even with the addition of Frattin, there was NO "team speed." The team wasn't moving well as a unit. That's no singular person's fault. That's on everyone.

Greene has taken so many ridiculous penalties, Mitchell is behind on the curve. Just not a recipe for success.

 

[Omni Owl]

Needs moar Martinez, not that Muzzin is super bad or anything.

 

[Captain Mittens*]

Matt Frattin has been invisible the past two games.

I don't know how you can think that. He set up Carter's goal against Minny and He hit the post last night on Carters goal

 

[Axl Rhoadz]

I'm calling it now....

No, not really, so everyone just take it easy.

What I will say is that, although it's only two games in, I've yet to see this team resemble in a consistent manner, the team that resembles the playoff-Kings of 2012. And this goes back to last season, but I gave them a pass then...

All this talk about the Kings being one of the top 3 in the league, I don't see it. Why is this even predicted? This team is arguably worse than the squad of last year. Bernier gone, better hope Quick can play lights out for 70 games, right? We've added ZERO scoring and that seemed to be the missing piece last season, so I'd be VERY concerned if we lose Carter to injury for any substantial amount of time....he seems to be the only one who can score on a regular basis.

Whatever it was in 2012, the Kings were an impressive unit....EVERYONE was on board. They've yet to show they can be that team again....they did not look good in last years playoff run, and the only reason they got as far as they did was Quick.

I have no doubt this is a playoff team, but not even close to being sold this is a top 3 team in the league. I'm worried this is yet to be again, a very inconsistent regular season. Not like we aren't used to it though...

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

For everyone that's chiming for Martinez over Muzzin--is it possible that Martinez is still hurt? Just food for thought because people sound like they're ready to town-square-hang Sutter

 

[KingCanadain1976]

For everyone that's chiming for Martinez over Muzzin--is it possible that Martinez is still hurt? Just food for thought because people sound like they're ready to town-square-hang Sutter

the way martinez played in the preseason making it highly unlikely that hes hurt. ALthou it is possible he hurt himself after the last preseason game adn the start of the regular season.

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

No, not really, so everyone just take it easy.

What I will say is that, although it's only two games in, I've yet to see this team resemble in a consistent manner, the team that resembles the playoff-Kings of 2012. And this goes back to last season, but I gave them a pass then...

All this talk about the Kings being one of the top 3 in the league, I don't see it. Why is this even predicted? This team is arguably worse than the squad of last year. Bernier gone, better hope Quick can play lights out for 70 games, right? We've added ZERO scoring and that seemed to be the missing piece last season, so I'd be VERY concerned if we lose Carter to injury for any substantial amount of time....he seems to be the only one who can score on a regular basis.

Whatever it was in 2012, the Kings were an impressive unit....EVERYONE was on board. They've yet to show they can be that team again....they did not look good in last years playoff run, and the only reason they got as far as they did was Quick.

I have no doubt this is a playoff team, but not even close to being sold this is a top 3 team in the league. I'm worried this is yet to be again, a very inconsistent regular season. Not like we aren't used to it though...

Not worried yet, but I've always thought two things: 1. this is not a regular-season-dominant sort of team. No President's trophys, maaayyybe a division banner, but only on a good, lucky year. and 2. You can't physically play the way the Kings did in those playoffs all 82 games. They were speedy, banging everything that moved (giggity), and ultra-aggressive. You'll run out of gas if you play like that.

What separates some of the good teams from the great teams in other sports is not showing everyone your whole playbook all season. Don't give them too much tape. Right now, the Kings have been scouted for two years, teams are amped to play them and measure up vs. the league's elite. Unless Sutter is saving some of that bag of tricks, expect to get passed around and skated hard on every last night.

Oh, and I'm still impressed with last year's playoff run, considering basically every player of note was hurt/completely injured/had surgery. I'm more forgiving than most here will be about that, as if you run into an incredibly healthy team on a hot season (sound familiar?) with all your major players recovering from concussions/knee injuries/back freaking surgery, the odds are against you, no matter how magical you think the team is.

 

[HYORI 1963]

For everyone that's chiming for Martinez over Muzzin--is it possible that Martinez is still hurt? Just food for thought because people sound like they're ready to town-square-hang Sutter

No, he's not injured.

All I could think of is that he's either on the trading block or that simply, Sutter just likes Muzzin more.

I feel bad for Martinez, because he should be a starter, but at the same time, I also can see what Sutter sees in Muzzin as well.