GDT: Game 14: Blues @ Coyotes - 6pm - FSA - Smurfs Edition.

Edenjung

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Going by the recap i watched this morning it was a good game by us and did our best.

Is that right or am i totally wrong to assume that?
 
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PuckLife

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So I'm watching the replay right now, @rt glad to know Hayton got the goal I felt really bad for him after watching him give that up.

A position player should probably be the one doing the full debrief on this, but to me it was just Hayton being too casual in the defensive zone. Basically he took too long to decide where to make his outlet pass, probably some mix of not liking the options he had and thinking he had a lot more time / space than he actually did. Every team plays differently without the puck, here the 2nd STL forechecker (61) is how they stripped the puck and then followed up so quickly with such a good scoring chance / goal immediately after. We looked lost in our zone because everyone was expecting a breakout pass rather than a turnover (which is not uncommon for most teams immediately following a turnover).

At a high level, if you're deep in the defensive zone and you don't like your options, the simple play is just to bang the puck up the boards to try get it out of the zone, keep the puck to the outside so even if the puck is intercepted it's not an immediate scoring chance against. Hayton did have his left winger open-ish, the simple play would have been to aim a pass board side (away from the STL winger), our winger would probably have been able to clear the zone because he had half a step of separation. It wouldn't have led to anything offensively though which would explain if Hayton were actually looking for another option that may or may not have been there. But also I'm not in his head, not entirely sure why he decided to hold on to the puck for that long in that area of the ice.

Hayton should get better as he gets used to the pace of the NHL. He's still very, very young
Thanks for the thoughtful analysis. I agree his delay is what bit him. I don’t think he had an open-ish left winger because Hunt changed (bad move) I didn’t notice at first, but after the turnover you see poor Fischer barrelling in - he had just hopped on the ice and got a minus, when it was Hunt that wasn’t in position.
Thanks again.
 

Jakey53

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Aug 27, 2011
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Really liked what I saw from Hayton between when he gave the Blues a goal and when he got the goal back. I think that single minded focus on getting a goal is something we could enjoy seeing more of if he were to go to Tucson and remember how. Then maybe when he comes back, he can look like that all the time.
Hayton is going no where. Right now he is as good as any of our bottom six the last few games.
 

cobra427

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May 6, 2012
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So I'm watching the replay right now, @rt glad to know Hayton got the goal I felt really bad for him after watching him give that up.

A position player should probably be the one doing the full debrief on this, but to me it was just Hayton being too casual in the defensive zone. Basically he took too long to decide where to make his outlet pass, probably some mix of not liking the options he had and thinking he had a lot more time / space than he actually did. Every team plays differently without the puck, here the 2nd STL forechecker (61) is how they stripped the puck and then followed up so quickly with such a good scoring chance / goal immediately after. We looked lost in our zone because everyone was expecting a breakout pass rather than a turnover (which is not uncommon for most teams immediately following a turnover).

At a high level, if you're deep in the defensive zone and you don't like your options, the simple play is just to bang the puck up the boards to try get it out of the zone, keep the puck to the outside so even if the puck is intercepted it's not an immediate scoring chance against. Hayton did have his left winger open-ish, the simple play would have been to aim a pass board side (away from the STL winger), our winger would probably have been able to clear the zone because he had half a step of separation. It wouldn't have led to anything offensively though which would explain if Hayton were actually looking for another option that may or may not have been there. But also I'm not in his head, not entirely sure why he decided to hold on to the puck for that long in that area of the ice.

Hayton should get better as he gets used to the pace of the NHL. He's still very, very young
Hayton should have made the safe play and chipped it up the boards, hockey 101, he won't make that mistake again. This is a rare mistake, he doesn't make many, he'll be fine.

On another note, I think we are as good as the Blues, they aren't clearly the better team, its pretty close. The question is how good are the Blues? Are they really good or just average, hard to say right now. We will find out when we start playing other teams but I feel like we have a much better team, we control more of the game/puck now than I can remember. Blues got beat 3 straight, they are clearly coming to play.

I'm looking forward to the rest of the year!
 

rt

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Hayton is going no where. Right now he is as good as any of our bottom six the last few games.
From the GA to the GF he was great. Outside of those two events, he just looked slow. Same as always. Smart and well positioned enough to mitigate his slow reactions but not enough to be a net positive. He’s largely a zero out there.

On average, I’ve like Keller, Schmaltz, Garland, Dovark. Pitlick, Crouse, Brassard, Fischer and Larsson a hell of a lot more.

I’m not saying I want to trade him. I’m not suggesting he be given up on or cast out. I’m suggesting the team stop being selfish, stupid, and short sighted and do what’s right for the kid.

I’m not calling him a bust. I’m saying the AHL is a better place for his development. And I view his development as extremely important. Too important to be pissed away like this.
 
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PainForShane

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In general, I agree with you. However, he didn't look good last night. He's only 29, but sometimes looks like he's 39.

He's also just returning after missing what, 10 or 11 games? Plus a new defensive partner in Bush (last few years he was playing with Demers, not sure about this year before he went down).

Timing / conditioning is always an issue after a layoff, obvi playing with an unfamiliar person means some miscommunication.

Even still, he and Bush were absolute garbage yesterday in terms of poor play in the D-zone
 
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MIGs Dog

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Hayton should have made the safe play and chipped it up the boards, hockey 101, he won't make that mistake again. This is a rare mistake, he doesn't make many, he'll be fine.

On another note, I think we are as good as the Blues, they aren't clearly the better team, its pretty close. The question is how good are the Blues? Are they really good or just average, hard to say right now. We will find out when we start playing other teams but I feel like we have a much better team, we control more of the game/puck now than I can remember. Blues got beat 3 straight, they are clearly coming to play.

I'm looking forward to the rest of the year!

Of the teams we have played, I put us as better than the Sharks and Ducks, equal to the Blues, but not as good as LV. Avs are good, but we might be the 3rd or 4th best team in the division.
 

MIGs Dog

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He's also just returning after missing what, 10 or 11 games? Plus a new defensive partner in Bush (last few years he was playing with Demers, not sure about this year before he went down).

Timing / conditioning is always an issue after a layoff, obvi playing with an unfamiliar person means some miscommunication.

Even still, he and Bush were absolute garbage yesterday in terms of poor play in the D-zone

I'm not an NHL coach (although I have just as many winning seasons as RT :D), but don't put him in if he's not ready. Healthy does not mean ready.
 
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Jakey53

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From the GA to the GF he was great. Outside of those two events, he just looked slow. Same as always. Smart and well positioned enough to mitigate his slow reactions but not enough to be a net positive. He’s largely a zero out there.

On average, I’ve like Keller, Schmaltz, Garland, Dovark. Pitlick, Crouse, Brassard, Fischer and Larsson a hell of a lot more.

I’m not saying I want to trade him. I’m not suggesting he be given up on or cast out. I’m suggesting the team stop being selfish, stupid, and short sighted and do what’s right for the kid.

I’m not calling him a bust. I’m saying the AHL is a better place for his development. And I view his development as extremely important. Too important to be pissed away like this.
I guess we agree to disagree. I'm no fan of Hayton, and if he played like last year I would agree with you, but I see a player gaining confidence and looking better and better. Pitlick, Brassard and Larsson are what they are, won't get better, but Hayton is just the opposite.
 

rt

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Hayton should have made the safe play and chipped it up the boards, hockey 101, he won't make that mistake again. This is a rare mistake, he doesn't make many, he'll be fine.

On another note, I think we are as good as the Blues, they aren't clearly the better team, its pretty close. The question is how good are the Blues? Are they really good or just average, hard to say right now. We will find out when we start playing other teams but I feel like we have a much better team, we control more of the game/puck now than I can remember. Blues got beat 3 straight, they are clearly coming to play.

I'm looking forward to the rest of the year!
With Hayton I agree he’ll be fine. At the very least he’ll be a super safe, super solid, super quiet player. A LOT of what he does is REALLY impressive for a rookie.

I’ve been worried about his offense this entire time. Since before the draft and before it was our problem. Tucson is right down the street. It’s right there. And offensive domination and all that confidence and pro experience awaits this player. It’s right there for the offering. Just let him go light it up for a couple months. Just do it. It’s the right thing.
 

rt

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Also, I don’t believe in Minnesota at all. I don’t think they’re real. So far all they’ve shown is they’re a little better than the California teams that they managed to edge out. And that theyre about as close with Colorado as we are with are with Vegas.

The telling games of the remaining season will be AZ v MN and MN v STL
 

Jakey53

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Aug 27, 2011
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Hayton should have made the safe play and chipped it up the boards, hockey 101, he won't make that mistake again. This is a rare mistake, he doesn't make many, he'll be fine.

On another note, I think we are as good as the Blues, they aren't clearly the better team, its pretty close. The question is how good are the Blues? Are they really good or just average, hard to say right now. We will find out when we start playing other teams but I feel like we have a much better team, we control more of the game/puck now than I can remember. Blues got beat 3 straight, they are clearly coming to play.

I'm looking forward to the rest of the year!
I agree. ROR has the Blues on his shoulders. He is a beast of a player and we are having a tough time controlling him. Remember, the Blues don't have their most dangerous forward in the line up.
 
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Coyotedroppings

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Can someone please rewatch the full play on the first goal against and tell me wtf everyone on the ice is doing. It should have been a straight forward breakout when OEL had the puck. Where are the wingers? Why did Hunt change while we are in our end? What were the D doing? I know Hayton got stripped in the corner, but he had no outlet options. Plenty of blame to share on that one.
Bad change by Hunt. Hayton should have merely sent it to the opposite corner, Bush was wide enough to have gotten it low, allowing everyone to get in better position.
 

MIGs Dog

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You get ready by playing. You have to get your timing back etc. Practices only help so much and do not emulate a real game scenario.

I'd say it's more about foot speed, which has been in a multi-year decline.

Edit: OEL is at a pt per game though...so there's that.
 
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PainForShane

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Thanks for the thoughtful analysis. I agree his delay is what bit him. I don’t think he had an open-ish left winger because Hunt changed (bad move) I didn’t notice at first, but after the turnover you see poor Fischer barrelling in - he had just hopped on the ice and got a minus, when it was Hunt that wasn’t in position.
Thanks again.

It's hard to see from the standard TV angle but Hayton's initial LW (assuming Hunt, not sure) was open-ish and Hayton had a lane to him that he did not take. Initial TV angle (impossible to see from here but provided for context):
Screen Shot 2021-02-14 at 7.31.30 AM.png

As you can see Hayton has some separation (we're in the purple jerseys for those who didn't see the game in real time), from the above camera angle it appears there is no one to pass to. But, seeing what Hayton sees:
Screen Shot 2021-02-14 at 7.32.35 AM.png


Seems open enough, Hayton clearly had time / space to make a play. Esp if you're at your own goal line which we all know is a place where mistakes often lead to goals. Hayton delays for a split second, then he's left with this:

Screen Shot 2021-02-14 at 7.32.51 AM.png


At this point imo Hayton could use some air to ice the puck and not feel bad about it. I suppose he could still pass to Hunt, but if he does that the pass has to be board side (note STL forechecker is forcing Hayton outside and also STL player Clifford has just entered the frame at the right of the screen), if Hayton passes to Hunt's tape, Clifford absolutely crushes Hunt just as the puck would reach him. Also Hunt is skating backwards and it looks like he's not expecting a pass to his right (Hayton's left) which I'm also getting from the position / angle of Hunt's stick, to me looks like he thinks he is about to receive a pass (my guess is he doesn't know Clifford is there). Anyway Hayton doesn't make a decision and the the STL forechecker gets to him. Then we're left with this:

Screen Shot 2021-02-14 at 8.23.32 AM.png


And now I have a question and would love some insight from a position player. AZ's LWer who we think is Hunt is on the ice in decent position, Hayton has just been forced back by the forechecker and might be in trouble deep in your d-zone. I mean... Clifford sees this same play develop and skates to the faceoff dot where he is then able to bury the puck uncontested from a prime scoring area.

Hunt inexplicably decided to go off for a change at this exact moment. Why would anyone do that?

I honestly have no idea trying to understand. This goal is by no means Hunt's fault, but I'm just trying to see why anyone would decide to leave the ice when your center has pinned himself below the goal line and is likely about to turn the puck over.

Screenshots thx to NHL.com and the STL feed
 
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MIGs Dog

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It's hard to see from the standard TV angle but Hayton's initial LW (assuming Hunt, not sure) was open-ish and Hayton had a lane to him that he did not take. Initial TV angle (impossible to see from here but provided for context):View attachment 396268
As you can see Hayton has some separation (we're in the purple jerseys for those who didn't see the game in real time), from the above camera angle it appears there is no one to pass to. But, seeing what Hayton sees:
View attachment 396269

Seems open enough, Hayton clearly had time / space to make a play. Esp if you're at your own goal line which we all know is a place where mistakes often lead to goals. Hayton delays for a split second, then he's left with this:

View attachment 396270

At this point imo Hayton could use some air to ice the puck and not feel bad about it. I suppose he could still pass to Hunt, but if he does that the pass has to be board side (note STL forechecker is forcing Hayton outside and also STL player Clifford has just entered the frame at the right of the screen), if Hayton passes to Hunt's tape, Clifford absolutely crushes Hunt just as the puck would reach him. Also Hunt is skating backwards and it looks like he's not expecting a pass to his right (Hayton's left) which I'm also getting from the position / angle of Hunt's stick, to me looks like he thinks he is about to receive a pass (my guess is he doesn't know Clifford is there). Anyway Hayton doesn't make a decision and the the STL forechecker gets to him. Then we're left with this:

View attachment 396273

And now I have a question and would love some insight from a position player. AZ's LWer who we think is Hunt is on the ice in decent position, Hayton has just been forced back by the forechecker and might be in trouble deep in your d-zone. I mean... Clifford sees this same play develop and skates to the faceoff dot where he is then able to bury the puck uncontested from a prime scoring area.

Hunt inexplicably decided to go off for a change at this exact moment. Why would anyone do that?

I honestly have no idea trying to understand. This goal is by no means Hunt's fault, but I'm just trying to see why anyone would decide to leave the ice when your center has pinned himself below the goal line and is likely about to turn the puck over.

Screenshots thx to NHL.com and the STL feed


I think it's all about Hayton not making the decision quickly enough to fire the puck when he had the lane. It's about adjusting to the speed of the NHL which maybe hasn't fully set in. What you hear guys say over and over about the biggest adjustment in the NHL is how quickly the opponent closes gaps leaving less open ice.
 

SCT

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May 6, 2015
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Boosh and OEL looked off together. Think OEL needs to be paired with a puck moving defensemen.
 

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