I have no problem with Strome on the 4th line. I do have a problem with him being used on the wing and then in the press box when his play on the wing disappointed.
Goal-Day Thread Game 10: Lightning @ Coyotes | 10/27/2018 6:00 p.m. PDT | FS-A
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Imaravencawcaw
Registered User
- Jul 19, 2018
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This is pretty much where I'm at as well. Strome makes mistakes like many young players, but he barely gives up any goals and chances because of those mistakes, and those mistakes certainly don't cost the team wins.
Archibald provides absolutely nothing of value, and while Strome might not provide much more right now, he actually has potential to become better. Strome can't be sitting in the press box right now for any reason. Maybe if we had a healthy Dvo I could see some logic in sitting Strome, but I'll continue to be flabbergasted as long as Archibald is the one taking his spot on game days.
For me the only issue is it comes down to what are we doing here. Are we developing or are we trying to scrape out every win? Even accepting the premise that Strome is providing negative value due to non-offensive play or he needs to be taught something.
I know which one I'd pick.
Strome is already burnt, even before the season started, as a tradable asset with significant value. I'm not all that worried about getting a 2nd vs 3rd for him. So you play him, trial by fire. With the injuries it's even easier to do so.
Strome had a couple meh to bad games and he's immediately demoted from playing almost as much time to Stepan to 4th line to scratch. If Strome played a couple bad *WEEKS* I'd be fine with such a demotion. 2 games is ridiculous.
I know which one I'd pick.
Strome is already burnt, even before the season started, as a tradable asset with significant value. I'm not all that worried about getting a 2nd vs 3rd for him. So you play him, trial by fire. With the injuries it's even easier to do so.
Strome had a couple meh to bad games and he's immediately demoted from playing almost as much time to Stepan to 4th line to scratch. If Strome played a couple bad *WEEKS* I'd be fine with such a demotion. 2 games is ridiculous.
Forget about Strome for a minute, but why is Archibald even on this team? Is it because he is a winger and they feel Strome can't play wing. Why not move Cousins to wing and Strome C, even if it's the fourth line. Archibald is, like someone said, hot garbage. Kempe is better. John boy can't do much until he gets rid of a contract.
Matias Maccete
Chopping up defenses
- Sep 21, 2014
- 9,690
- 3,604
This. The rules need to apply to everyone.
rt
The Kinder, Gentler Version
One like isn’t enough. I need to quote it to like it even more.
rt
The Kinder, Gentler Version
Panik-Galchenyuk-Keller
Perlini-Stepan-Fischer
Grabner-Strome-Vinnie
Crouse-Richardson-Cousins
Archibald
Bonsai Tree
Turning a new leaf
- Feb 2, 2014
- 9,217
- 4,522
Two strikingly different coaches, same complaints over how the young talent is managed. Would Tippet have put Strome on the 2nd line to sink or swim? Babcock? I bet Babcock would have planted Strome's butt in the AHL until he hit 24. A 2nd line center should be the player who makes his wings better, and not be dependant upon his wings to play well.
Winning, thats the goal and what we are doing. If Strome deserves to play he will play, up to him. The victim card for Strome on this board is ridiculous.
So you agree that players should be scratched after 2 poor games? Starts well, plays better than most of the roster even, has a few mediocre games, a few bad ones. Then scratch? Where's the logic?
Why wouldn't it be better to see if Strome can adjust while playing like NHL players have to do?
Reduced minutes is one thing. Stuck on the wing on the 4th line, where we already know he's completely ineffective as a player, and then scratched after being ineffective where it's known does not make any sense.
It would really be better if you replied to specific points otherwise you're just blanket assigning positions.
Because you are erecting a strawman that people are saying he has to be on the 2nd line and can't move. I don't think most people are saying that. Heck read the suggested combos right above yours. Can I get a show of hands of people who think he should play more minutes than Galchenyuk and Stepan? I'm guessing that number is pretty close to 0.
I am saying for the good of this organization in the future he has to play center. If he's bad it will prove out and we will not have to deal with this in another 6 months which is a good in and of itself. If he's bad consistently over a few weeks or a month, sure scratch him demote him whatever. You'll find I didn't complain much at all about his demotion last season, other then that there wasn't much logic to it.
How many games is Strome playing 12-14 minutes a night going to cost the team and why do we care?
I also flat out disagree they are strikingly different. They are very similar in most ways except x's and o's.
The immediate goal of a team is often not winning every game possible. When is it prudent to give a player a stretch to games to see what you have? never? only in tank seasons? Only after you've been eliminated from the playoffs? Teams in all sports do this at times. We aren't proposing something out of left field here.
What is the logic of scratching him after 4-5 pretty good games, 2 mediocre ones and 2 bad ones? Why didn't say Perlini receive the same treatment after the first 3 games cause he was worse then than Strome at any point this season.
It's not a "victim" card. I think it's a mistake to mismanage your talent in this way and it will bite this team long term.
I'm not asking for you guys to write a dissertation, though it wouldn't hurt. But say why it's a good idea to scratch him for some nebulous teaching when it's more likely just inconsistency that every young player goes through. Learning to play through your ups and downs is an important skill and one Strome specifically needs to improve on. He's not going to do that playing wing to Nicky Cousins then getting scratched because he was put in a position he was never going to be successful in.
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Bonsai Tree
Turning a new leaf
- Feb 2, 2014
- 9,217
- 4,522
I'm not hitting reply due to the length of your post, Snips. An interesting read. No, I'm not putting up a straw man. How can you complain that I was pushing a false narrative that Strome needed to play 2nd line and then complain that he can't play wing to Nicky Cousins? Is it that this center can't play wing or that he needs top 6 forwards to succeed on the ice? Since when can't a center play wing. I remember many good young centers who started out on the wing to introduce them to the league.
Strome is no victim. Just because he got benched against a very, very fast and skilled Tampa Bay team doesn't mean that Tocchet has lost all faith in him. Jeez. I can't believe that I'm defending Tocchet, but in the case of the Half Speed Prince, I think that he's doing things right.
Strome is no victim. Just because he got benched against a very, very fast and skilled Tampa Bay team doesn't mean that Tocchet has lost all faith in him. Jeez. I can't believe that I'm defending Tocchet, but in the case of the Half Speed Prince, I think that he's doing things right.
The team selected Strome #3 overall, essentially making him the de facto #1 overall besides the obvious first two, and has waited three years for him to get into his current form. If you include the trash year it takes to get the third overall pick, that's four years worth of effort put into one player. That makes jerking him around like he's a waiver claim on the edge of the league after one bad game incredibly shortsighted. Teams that are good at developing talent tend to avoid doing this. They instead focus on physical readiness (is it safe for this player to play at the NHL level?) and generally making sure they can keep their head above water. If they can, teams usually chuck guys into the deep end and just hope the skill they've watched for years manifests.
The Coyotes, for some reason, overreact to any struggles. I think that goes with losing, having a bad record year after year, and coaches generally trying to stay alive rather than focusing on a longer time horizon.
Dylan Strome isn't even at his final playing weight. This is not his final form. He should be logging important minutes as the center they envision him to be rather than sitting in the press box. The only excuse for healthy scratching a young player that is actively trying their best is if they don't meet the team standards in terms of practice, travel, or whatever norms/expectations have been set out for them behind the scenes. We don't hear about any of that with Strome. We see some questionable favoritism towards certain players that have not earned it with Tocchet and it becomes fair to question motives and methods.
Most organizations come to the logical conclusion that the only way they will consistently win in a salary cap world is with their own talent. They allow this talent to essentially sink or swim because the team will follow in the same direction over a long enough timescale. If your core is good, you can add to it and you will rise like Toronto and Winnipeg. If you're trash or have no core, the clock is ticking. The terrible, trashy years of the Coyotes can be directly traced back to an inability to develop meaningful offensive talent under the previous regime. Likewise, the current slow rise can be attributed to drafting and incorporating players like Keller and Fischer.
They fixed the culture it seems like, so credit for that. The team works hard (most players, most of the time). That just makes the still lingering 'old school' treatment of players the organization absolutely needs to get up and running all the more frustrating. It's the last vestige of the trashy Coyotes and it'd be nice if they could shake it.
The Coyotes, for some reason, overreact to any struggles. I think that goes with losing, having a bad record year after year, and coaches generally trying to stay alive rather than focusing on a longer time horizon.
Dylan Strome isn't even at his final playing weight. This is not his final form. He should be logging important minutes as the center they envision him to be rather than sitting in the press box. The only excuse for healthy scratching a young player that is actively trying their best is if they don't meet the team standards in terms of practice, travel, or whatever norms/expectations have been set out for them behind the scenes. We don't hear about any of that with Strome. We see some questionable favoritism towards certain players that have not earned it with Tocchet and it becomes fair to question motives and methods.
Most organizations come to the logical conclusion that the only way they will consistently win in a salary cap world is with their own talent. They allow this talent to essentially sink or swim because the team will follow in the same direction over a long enough timescale. If your core is good, you can add to it and you will rise like Toronto and Winnipeg. If you're trash or have no core, the clock is ticking. The terrible, trashy years of the Coyotes can be directly traced back to an inability to develop meaningful offensive talent under the previous regime. Likewise, the current slow rise can be attributed to drafting and incorporating players like Keller and Fischer.
They fixed the culture it seems like, so credit for that. The team works hard (most players, most of the time). That just makes the still lingering 'old school' treatment of players the organization absolutely needs to get up and running all the more frustrating. It's the last vestige of the trashy Coyotes and it'd be nice if they could shake it.
Edenjung
Registered User
- Jun 7, 2018
- 2,743
- 2,670
I see it the same way as SniperHf.
Strome needs to play. He needs ice time, if he doesn't play he could do better things with his time ,maybe going to university.
So and if we want to develop a player we need to give him ice-time even if he plays bad for 2 games.
Just put him in the 3th line and forget about him for 4-6 games. then we will look at him again.
Maybe he just needs to be more relaxed, knowing that he does not have to perorm that good, because he has some time to get into the game.
This mght work wonders.
Good example for that was seen in the Bundesliga last year (i know thats football, but i had no better example): Fc colonge was bad, really bad, and they were on theri way to be demoted anyways, even if they won some games. So the players had no pressure anymore , because anybody knew that they will start in the 2 Bundesliga.
But the players played good and won games. They were getting better. In the end the where demoted anyway, but sometimes less pressure and some slack can help people to get working again.
On the other side, some people bloom under pressure or even need pressure ( i can work perfectly, when i am near the deadline), but the coach has to find out who has which personality in his team. And then make some changes to help those players.
Strome needs to play. He needs ice time, if he doesn't play he could do better things with his time ,maybe going to university.
So and if we want to develop a player we need to give him ice-time even if he plays bad for 2 games.
Just put him in the 3th line and forget about him for 4-6 games. then we will look at him again.
Maybe he just needs to be more relaxed, knowing that he does not have to perorm that good, because he has some time to get into the game.
This mght work wonders.
Good example for that was seen in the Bundesliga last year (i know thats football, but i had no better example): Fc colonge was bad, really bad, and they were on theri way to be demoted anyways, even if they won some games. So the players had no pressure anymore , because anybody knew that they will start in the 2 Bundesliga.
But the players played good and won games. They were getting better. In the end the where demoted anyway, but sometimes less pressure and some slack can help people to get working again.
On the other side, some people bloom under pressure or even need pressure ( i can work perfectly, when i am near the deadline), but the coach has to find out who has which personality in his team. And then make some changes to help those players.
I would leave Richardson with Grabner. Put Strome with Crouse and Cousins.
I have no problem sitting Strome, I really don't, but the problem I have is you sit him when you have a ECHL player taking up a roster spot. All RT had to do was put Cousins back on wing where he plays best, and sit Archibald.
Good post, but for me it's all about winning. I do not have a problem sitting players. I want the best players on the ice, and Strome on his worst day is better than Archibald on his best day.
rt
The Kinder, Gentler Version
That’s nuts. Richardson is a complete black hole defensively and is the worst player on that roster by a good margin.
We should do
Crouse-Strome-Vinnie
Grabner-Richardson-Cousins
Crouse-Strome-Vinnie
Grabner-Richardson-Cousins
Wow. I guess we see Richardson differently. I thought he has been solid.
FinnishCoyote
Registered User
- Jan 3, 2017
- 1,306
- 1,749
rt
The Kinder, Gentler Version
I’m glad he’s on the PK. He’s also a fine 4th line center. That’s the appropriate place for him to play in order to be an asset rather than a detriment.
Prarievarg
On the hype lokomotiv
I like this line for Strome. Crouse and Strome work well together and vinnie is a good substitute for Merkley (+ some extra speed).
BUX7PHX
Registered User
- Jul 7, 2011
- 5,581
- 1,350
So, you make all these mentions about how he isn't a finished product, and then go right into stating that an unfinished product needs to be logging important minutes and putting him in a position to be the center that the team envisions him as. Isn't the idea of giving meaningful minutes to an unfinished product very contradictory?
This is the same argument that we had with Tippett and are now re-hashing with Tocchet. Coaches play favorites all the time. An old coach of mine had a parent ask him that, and he responded with, "Yes, I do play favorites. My favorites are kids that work hard and do what they are instructed. They don't make excuses and they use as much of their god-given talent to be the best that they can be. They don't make mental errors, and if they do they correct them. Those are my favorite players."
Obviously, that is a little out of context with regard to the talent level in the NHL vs lower forms of talent, but the point remains the same. The reason why Strome gets sat for Kempe one day isn't because the coach dislikes Strome the person or wants to ruin him. It is because something is happening that we want to or need to correct before it becomes a bigger problem. Give him the ability to see what we want him to change and highlight how to do so. If that means he sits a game so that he can see it on the ice with other players doing what is asked, and Strome can gain a greater understanding of what needs to be done, then I call that a good thing.
There is also a difference between inability to develop talent and taking talent that doesn't have the same growth potential. Gormley is a prime example. He had talent - but the talent that he had shown thus far was very, very close to his ceiling already. We can't develop that which has a limitation on the ability to further develop. Gormley's skating and acceleration were issues, and we could never get him past that hump to have "good enough" speed and quickness. You can go down the list of some of these players. Did we "fail" to develop Henrik Samuelsson? What about Connor Murphy - did we fail to develop him or does he fall into the "he is what he is" category? We are saying failure to develop, but the causation of that is poor drafting for a good amount of time, and then not being able to keep some of those players for a consistent period. Turris argued his way out. We threw Lindberg to the Rangers to upgrade with Ethan Werek and lost out big time on that one. From 2008 - 2015, players that we drafted in the 3rd round or later have a combined 588 NHL games played. 105 of those games were goalies (Domingue, Langhamer, and Hill). Michael Stone has 435 of those remaining games. We can call it failure to develop, but let's hitch the horse called poor drafting to the cart of failing to develop before stating that it is solely on development failure.
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Strome has 2 PP goals, thats it, zero assists, zero 5 on 5 points and he is our worst forward without the puck by far, its not close. Archibald is a more effective player if Strome isn't producing and we had 7 goals without strome, so it's not like we missed his production (so far).
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