Future Relocation Possibilities

[IU Hawks fan]

I think that somewhere in Wisconsin would be a great place for hockey in the US. Im actually surprised that they have never had a there or had real serious talks of starting one up. Every other major sport is in Wisconsin and the University of Wisconsin is one of the biggest drawing teams in the NCAA.

From what I've heard Dollar Bill Wirtz had a block on the Milwaukee market for years. Which sucks. A Chicago/Milwaukee hockey rivalry would be awesome.

 

[StoneColdFlower*]

unfortunately he's not a potential owner.

He's not crooked enough to deal with Don Bettman.

 

[Buck Aki Berg]

From what I've heard Dollar Bill Wirtz had a block on the Milwaukee market for years. Which sucks. A Chicago/Milwaukee hockey rivalry would be awesome.

Wirtz Jr. has the same block, but it's currently a non-issue since there's nobody wanting to bring a team to Milwaukee at the moment and negotiate indemnity fees. From the sound of it, Milwaukee would need a new barn as well; Bradley Center isn't in terribly good shape.

 

[JerseyGuy276]

Atlanta is the next to go.

But eventually Florida if they don't make the playoffs for another decade will move too.

Nashville and Islanders are not looking great either.

I thought Atlanta had a good crowd going while they were winning games in the first half of the year. Then the team started sucking again and it was back to same old thrashers...

Florida doesn't have to move, the BankAtlantic Center makes so much money for their owners from concerts and other things that having an NHL team in just added revenue.

Nashville, I don't see moving and the Islanders can just move into the Barclays center once its done if they cant work out a deal in Nassau county.

 

[Melrose Munch]

I thought Nashville was fine.

 

[Melrose Munch]

For potential re-location:

1. Quebec City
2. Hamilton/Toronto 2
3. Houston
4. Portland/Seattle
5. Kansas City

Little OT, but MoreOrr mentioned Salt Lake City for the NFL. How on earth will that work?? Population is barely over a million and I'm sure most of the corporate dollars in the city are already exhausted on the NBA. Saying the NFL could work in Salt Lake would be like saying MLB would work in Edmonton.

I will be really surprised if Toronto gets their NFL team. IMO, their only hope is getting the Olympics in the next 15 - 20 years. That way, they can get the federal government to pay for a stadium.

I really don't see 50,000 - 60,000 people and corporations spending $10,000 - $20,000 each on PSLs just so Toronto can build a billion dollar domed stadium, much as Rob Ford wants to believe that. Sure, there might be thousands who would be willing to pay such outrageous fees, but 50,000-60000? I don't think so. This isn't Dallas after all.

IMO why PSL's? I thought people where buying seats?

Are there any other financing ideas out there?

 

[Grudy0]

Then let's do this.

I attached this table to the Census data thread. This is the television market list from the Television Bureau of Canada. However, I am updating this with a couple of new columns. This one is going to have the NHL teams associated with each market, the NBA teams associated with each market.

Later, I will update the markets without NHL teams with the arena and its capacity, but only with a suitable arena, with capacity greater than 15,000 and built from the 1990's onward. I figure it must be of interest as there are many newer arenas without a tenant (such as Sprint Center in Kansas City) that are rather ripe for an ownership group and a team.

NAm|US|CDN|Market|Pop. (000)|NHL|NBA|Arena
1|1||New York|20,093|Rangers/Isles/Devils|Knicks/Nets|
2|2||Los Angeles|17,036|Kings/Ducks|Lakers/Clippers|
3|3||Chicago|9,381|Blackhawks|Bulls|
4|4||Philadelphia|7,445|Flyers|Sixers|
5|| 1 | Toronto-Hamilton |7,174|Leafs|Raptors|
6|5||Dallas-Ft. Worth|6,786|Stars|Mavericks|
7|6||San Francisco-Oak-San Jose|6,719|Sharks|Warriors|
8|7||Atlanta|6,317|Thrashers|Hawks|
9|8||Boston (Manchester)|5,984|Bruins|Celtics|
10|9||Washington, DC (Hagrstwn)|5,936|Capitals|Wizards|
11|10|| Houston |5,883||Rockets| Toyota Center (2003) 17,800
12|11||Phoenix (Prescott)|4,982|Coyotes|Suns|
13|12||Detroit|4,758|Red Wings|Pistons|
14|| 2 | Montréal |4,618|Canadiens||
15|13||Seattle-Tacoma|4,493|||No suitable arena
16|14||Minneapolis-St. Paul|4,283|Wild|Timberwolves|
17|15||Tampa-St. Pete (Sarasota)|4,178|Lightning||
18|16||Miami Ft. Lauderdale|4,104|Panthers|Heat|
19|17||Denver|3,839|Avalanche|Nuggets|
20|18||Sacramnto-Stkton-Modesto|3,838||Kings|No suitable arena
21|19|| Cleveland-Akron (Canton) |3,669||Cavaliers| Quicken Loans Arena (1994) 20,056
22|20|| Orlando-Daytona Bch-Melbrn |3,561||Magic| Amway Center (2010) 17,200
23|| 3 | Vancouver |3,413|Canucks||
24|21||St. Louis|3,048|Blues||
25|22|| Portland, OR |2,994||Trail Blazers| Rose Garden (1995) 18,280
26|23||San Diego|2,889|||No suitable arena
27|24||Charlotte|2,828||Bobcats|No suitable arena
28|25|| Salt Lake |2,827||Jazz| EnergySolutions Arena (1991) ~17,000
29|26||Raleigh-Durham (Fayetvlle)|2,726|Hurricanes||
30|27||Baltimore|2,720|||No suitable arena
31|28||Indianapolis|2,704||Pacers|No suitable arena
32|29||Pittsburgh|2,663|Penguins||
33|30||Nashville|2,484|Predators||
34|31||Hartford & New Haven|2,472|||No suitable arena
35|32|| Kansas City |2,298||| Sprint Center (2007) 17,752
36|33||Cincinnati|2,261|||No suitable arena
37|34||San Antonio|2,259||Spurs|No suitable arena
38|35||Milwaukee|2,184||Bucks|No suitable arena
39|36||Columbus, OH|2,179|Blue Jackets||
40|37||Greenvll-Spar-Ashevll-And|2,040|||No suitable arena
41|| 4 | Kitchener-London |1,940|||No suitable arena
42|38||Las Vegas|1,889|||No suitable arena
43|39||Grand Rapids-Kalamazoo-b.Crk|1,879|||No suitable arena
44|40||Harrisburg-Lncstr-Leb-York|1,820|||No suitable arena
45|41||West Palm Beach-Ft. Pierce|1,820|||
46|42||Fresno-Visalia|1,818|||
47|43||Birmingham (Ann and Tusc)|1,764|||
48|44||Norfolk-Porstmth-Newpt Nws|1,761|||
49|45||Albuquerque-Santa Fe|1,747|||
50|46||Austin|1,743|||
51|47||Memphis|1,676||Grizzlies|No suitable arena
52|48||Jacksonville|1,674|||
53|49|| Oklahoma City |1,662||Thunder| Oklahoma City Arena (2002) 18,036
54|50||Greensboro-H. Point-W.Salem|1,644|||
55|| 5 | Edmonton |1,627|Oilers||
56|51|| New Orleans |1,613||Hornets| New Orleans Arena (1998) ~16,500
57|52|| Louisville |1,596||| KFC Yum! Center (2010) ~20,000
58|| 6 | Calgary |1,563|Flames||
59|53||Providence-New Bedford|1,513|||
60|54||Buffalo|1,495|Sabres||
61|| 7 | Ottawa-Gatineau |1,415|Senators||
62|55||Wilkes Barre-Scranton|1,401|||
63|56||Little Rock-Pine Bluff|1,346|||
64|57||Richmond-Petersburg|1,335|||
65|58||Mobile-Pensacola (Ft. Walt)|1,304|||
66|59||Albany-Schenectady-Troy|1,294|||
67|60|| Tulsa |1,286||| BOK Center (2008) 17,096
68|61||Knoxville|1,280|||
69|62||Honolulu|1,215|||
70|63||Lexington|1,179|||
71|64||Harlingen-Wslco-Brnsvl-McA|1,175|||
72|65||Charleston-Huntington|1,159|||
73|66||Ft. Myers-Naples|1,158|||
74|67||Tuscon (Sierra Vista)|1,143|||
75|68||Dayton|1,142|||
76|69||Wichita-Hutchinson|1,119|||
77|70||Flint-Saginaw-Bay City|1,113|||
78|71||Green Bay-Appleton|1,061|||
79|| 8 | Québec City |1,058|||Funding for arena being secured
80|72||Roanoke-Lynchburg|1,047|||
81|73||Spokane|1,031|||
82|74|| Des Moines-Ames |1,030||| Wells Fargo Arena (2005) 15,181
83|75||Toledo|1,011|||
84|76|| Omaha |1,007||| CenturyLink Center (2003) 16,680
85|77||Springfield, MO|996|||
86|78||Rochester, NY|956|||
87|79||Columbia, SC|953|||
88|80||Shreveport|945|||
89|81||Portland-Auburn|942|||
90|| 9 | Winnipeg |961||| MTS Centre (2004) 15,015
91|82||Huntsville-Decatur (Flor)|937|||
92|83||Syracuse|924|||
93|84||El Paso (Las Cruces)|920|||
94|85||Paducah-C.Gird-Harbg-Mt VN|920|||
95|86||Madison|898|||
96|87||Champaign&Sprngfld-Decatur|891|||
97|88||Chattanooga|883|||
98|89||Waco-Temple-Bryan|875|||
99|90||Jackson, MS|852|||
100|91||South Bend-Elkhart|848|||
101|92||Colorado Springs-Pueblo|842|||
102|93||Baton Rouge|830|||
103|94||Cedar Rapids-Wtrlo-IWC&Dub|818|||
104|95||Savannah|797|||
105|96||Burlington-Plattsburgh|782|||
106|97||Tri-Cities, TN-VA|755|||
107|98||Charleston, SC|752|||
108|99||Ft. Smith-Fay-Springfld-Rgrs|749|||
109|| 10 | East Central Ontario |724|||
110|100||Davenport-R. Island-Moline|733|||
111|101||Myrtle Beach-Florence|692|||
112|102||Johnstown-Altoona-St Colge|692|||

 

[MoreOrr]

Then let's do this.

I attached this table to the Census data thread. This is the television market list from the Television Bureau of Canada. However, I am updating this with a couple of new columns. This one is going to have the NHL teams associated with each market, the NBA teams associated with each market.

Later, I will update the markets without NHL teams with the arena and its capacity, but only with a suitable arena, with capacity greater than 15,000 and built from the 1990's onward. I figure it must be of interest as there are many newer arenas without a tenant (such as Sprint Center in Kansas City) that are rather ripe for an ownership group and a team.

NAm|US|CDN|Market|Pop. (000)|NHL|NBA|Arena
1|1||New York|20,093|Rangers/Isles/Devils|Knicks/Nets|
2|2||Los Angeles|17,036|Kings/Ducks|Lakers/Clippers|
3|3||Chicago|9,381|Blackhawks|Bulls|
4|4||Philadelphia|7,445|Flyers|Sixers|
5|| 1 | Toronto-Hamilton |7,174|Leafs|Raptors|
6|5||Dallas-Ft. Worth|6,786|Stars|Mavericks|
7|6||San Francisco-Oak-San Jose|6,719|Sharks|Warriors|
8|7||Atlanta|6,317|Thrashers|Hawks|
9|8||Boston (Manchester)|5,984|Bruins|Celtics|
10|9||Washington, DC (Hagrstwn)|5,936|Capitals|Wizards|
11|10|| Houston |5,883||Rockets| Toyota Center (2003) 17,800
12|11||Phoenix (Prescott)|4,982|Coyotes|Suns|
13|12||Detroit|4,758|Red Wings|Pistons|
14|| 2 | Montréal |4,618|Canadiens||
15|13||Seattle-Tacoma|4,493|||No suitable arena
16|14||Minneapolis-St. Paul|4,283|Wild|Timberwolves|
17|15||Tampa-St. Pete (Sarasota)|4,178|Lightning||
18|16||Miami Ft. Lauderdale|4,104|Panthers|Heat|
19|17||Denver|3,839|Avalanche|Nuggets|
20|18||Sacramnto-Stkton-Modesto|3,838||Kings|No suitable arena
21|19|| Cleveland-Akron (Canton) |3,669||Cavaliers| Quicken Loans Arena (1994) 20,056
22|20|| Orlando-Daytona Bch-Melbrn |3,561||Magic| Amway Center (2010) 17,200
23|| 3 | Vancouver |3,413|Canucks||
24|21||St. Louis|3,048|Blues||
25|22|| Portland, OR |2,994||Trail Blazers| Rose Garden (1995) 18,280
26|23||San Diego|2,889|||No suitable arena
27|24||Charlotte|2,828||Bobcats|No suitable arena
28|25|| Salt Lake |2,827||Jazz| EnergySolutions Arena (1991) ~17,000
29|26||Raleigh-Durham (Fayetvlle)|2,726|Hurricanes||
30|27||Baltimore|2,720|||No suitable arena
31|28||Indianapolis|2,704||Pacers|No suitable arena
32|29||Pittsburgh|2,663|Penguins||
33|30||Nashville|2,484|Predators||
34|31||Hartford & New Haven|2,472|||No suitable arena
35|32|| Kansas City |2,298||| Sprint Center (2007) 17,752
36|33||Cincinnati|2,261|||No suitable arena
37|34||San Antonio|2,259||Spurs|No suitable arena
38|35||Milwaukee|2,184||Bucks|No suitable arena
39|36||Columbus, OH|2,179|Blue Jackets||
40|37||Greenvll-Spar-Ashevll-And|2,040|||No suitable arena
41|| 4 | Kitchener-London |1,940|||No suitable arena
42|38||Las Vegas|1,889|||No suitable arena
43|39||Grand Rapids-Kalamazoo-b.Crk|1,879|||No suitable arena
44|40||Harrisburg-Lncstr-Leb-York|1,820|||No suitable arena
45|41||West Palm Beach-Ft. Pierce|1,820|||
46|42||Fresno-Visalia|1,818|||
47|43||Birmingham (Ann and Tusc)|1,764|||
48|44||Norfolk-Porstmth-Newpt Nws|1,761|||
49|45||Albuquerque-Santa Fe|1,747|||
50|46||Austin|1,743|||
51|47||Memphis|1,676||Grizzlies|No suitable arena
52|48||Jacksonville|1,674|||
53|49|| Oklahoma City |1,662||Thunder| Oklahoma City Arena (2002) 18,036
54|50||Greensboro-H. Point-W.Salem|1,644|||
55|| 5 | Edmonton |1,627|Oilers||
56|51|| New Orleans |1,613||Hornets| New Orleans Arena (1998) ~16,500
57|52|| Louisville |1,596||| KFC Yum! Center (2010) ~20,000
58|| 6 | Calgary |1,563|Flames||
59|53||Providence-New Bedford|1,513|||
60|54||Buffalo|1,495|Sabres||
61|| 7 | Ottawa-Gatineau |1,415|Senators||
62|55||Wilkes Barre-Scranton|1,401|||
63|56||Little Rock-Pine Bluff|1,346|||
64|57||Richmond-Petersburg|1,335|||
65|58||Mobile-Pensacola (Ft. Walt)|1,304|||
66|59||Albany-Schenectady-Troy|1,294|||
67|60|| Tulsa |1,286||| BOK Center (2008) 17,096
68|61||Knoxville|1,280|||
69|62||Honolulu|1,215|||
70|63||Lexington|1,179|||
71|64||Harlingen-Wslco-Brnsvl-McA|1,175|||
72|65||Charleston-Huntington|1,159|||
73|66||Ft. Myers-Naples|1,158|||
74|67||Tuscon (Sierra Vista)|1,143|||
75|68||Dayton|1,142|||
76|69||Wichita-Hutchinson|1,119|||
77|70||Flint-Saginaw-Bay City|1,113|||
78|71||Green Bay-Appleton|1,061|||
79|| 8 | Québec City |1,058|||Funding for arena being secured
80|72||Roanoke-Lynchburg|1,047|||
81|73||Spokane|1,031|||
82|74|| Des Moines-Ames |1,030||| Wells Fargo Arena (2005) 15,181
83|75||Toledo|1,011|||
84|76|| Omaha |1,007||| CenturyLink Center (2003) 16,680
85|77||Springfield, MO|996|||
86|78||Rochester, NY|956|||
87|79||Columbia, SC|953|||
88|80||Shreveport|945|||
89|81||Portland-Auburn|942|||
90|| 9 | Winnipeg |961||| MTS Centre (2004) 15,015
91|82||Huntsville-Decatur (Flor)|937|||
92|83||Syracuse|924|||
93|84||El Paso (Las Cruces)|920|||
94|85||Paducah-C.Gird-Harbg-Mt VN|920|||
95|86||Madison|898|||
96|87||Champaign&Sprngfld-Decatur|891|||
97|88||Chattanooga|883|||
98|89||Waco-Temple-Bryan|875|||
99|90||Jackson, MS|852|||
100|91||South Bend-Elkhart|848|||
101|92||Colorado Springs-Pueblo|842|||
102|93||Baton Rouge|830|||
103|94||Cedar Rapids-Wtrlo-IWC&Dub|818|||
104|95||Savannah|797|||
105|96||Burlington-Plattsburgh|782|||
106|97||Tri-Cities, TN-VA|755|||
107|98||Charleston, SC|752|||
108|99||Ft. Smith-Fay-Springfld-Rgrs|749|||
109|| 10 | East Central Ontario |724|||
110|100||Davenport-R. Island-Moline|733|||
111|101||Myrtle Beach-Florence|692|||
112|102||Johnstown-Altoona-St Colge|692|||

Where are you coming up with some of those figures? Just to choose one: Winnipeg with a population of 961,000 ??

And if you're really going to combine areas, like Toronto and Hamilton, then be consistant... what about Washington and Baltimore.

I just chose a couple random examples, though those are enough for me to question the data and bias of the whole table.

MORE:
Spokane = 1,031,000....
Why not combine Cincinnati and Dayton ?
Québec City = 1,058
What the hell is "East Central Ontario" ?

Here, here's a link to a site that gives you the larger combined areas for the US:
http://www.citypopulation.de/USA-CombMetro.html
And for Canada:
http://www.citypopulation.de/Canada-MetroEst.html

And if you compare the 2006 Canadian Conglomeration figures with 2007 Metropolitan figures, you can see that the 2010 Conglomeration figures are going to be pretty much the same the Metropolitan figures:

Conglomeration 2006
Toronto = 5,113,149
Montréal = 3,635,571
Vancouver = 2,116,581
Ottawa = 1,130,761
Calgary = 1,079,310
Edmonton = 1,034,945
Québec City = 715,515
Winnipeg = 694,668
Hamilton = 692,911

Metropolitan 2007
Toronto = 5,435,511
Montréal = 3,722,963
Vancouver = 2,231,549
Ottawa = 1,183,438
Calgary = 1,154,854
Edmonton = 1,102,874
Québec City = 730,895
Hamilton = 724,362
Winnipeg = 723,678

So again, I don't know where you're getting your numbers from.

 

[Grudy0]

I'm not trying to start something....

Where are you coming up with some of those figures? Just to choose one: Winnipeg with a population of 961,000 ??

I attached this table to the Census data thread. This is the television market list from the Television Bureau of Canada.

The markets are usually a bit larger than the cities or their CSA/MSA's.

There is a link within my post to the Census thread to the data in the Television Bureau of Canada page.

 

[MoreOrr]

I'm not trying to start something....The markets are usually a bit larger than the cities or their CSA/MSA's.

There is a link within my post to the Census thread to the data in the Television Bureau of Canada page.

Fine, so you're taking data from some TV market source....
But then, cities like San Francisco, Oakland, and San Jose all have separate distinct sports franchises, so how can they rightfully be all grouped together any more than Baltimore and Washington?

The same goes for Los Angeles and New York. Yes, they are true metropolitan areas, but they serve various teams.... each team gets only a slice of that market, though of course there will be much overlap.

And if a new NHL team went into London - Kitchener-Waterloo, or in Hamilton... then would that be the Leafs market or the market of the new team? Especially relevant with your Toronto-Hamilton combined area.

 

[kdb209]

Fine, so you're taking data from some TV market source....

I wouldn't call the data from "some TV market source" - rather from THE TV market source.

Those are the Nielsen DMA definitions.

But then, cities like San Francisco, Oakland, and San Jose all have separate distinct sports franchises, so how can they rightfully be all grouped together any more than Baltimore and Washington?

Because SF-Oakland-SJ is pretty much a single media market.

DC & Baltimore are two separate media markets (albeit with some overlap) - with separate network affiliates, papers, radio stations, etc.

 

[Grudy0]

Fine, so you're taking data from some TV market source....
But then, cities like San Francisco, Oakland, and San Jose all have separate distinct sports franchises, so how can they rightfully be all grouped together any more than Baltimore and Washington?

In the US, it is Nielsen Marketing Research that creates the "TV markets", otherwise known as DMA's (Designated Market Areas).

San Francisco, Oakland and San Jose generally receive the same ABC, CBS, NBC and Fox affiliates throughout the region. Washington, DC and Baltimore do not.

The same goes for Los Angeles and New York. Yes, they are true metropolitan areas, but they serve various teams.... each team gets only a slice of that market, though of course there will be much overlap.

And if a new NHL team went into London - Kitchener-Waterloo, or in Hamilton... then would that be the Leafs market or the market of the new team? Especially relevant with your Toronto-Hamilton combined area.

It isn't my Toronto-Hamilton combined area, it is the television market as defined by BBM Canada.

According to the list, Kitchener-London is its own market. And if Hamilton were to get a team, it would be just like the LA market sharing the Kings and the Ducks.

 

[Lux Aurumque*]

If you move two US teams to Canada, they'll just be coming back in 2025-2030.

Wanna pass some of whatever you're smoking?

 

[MoreOrr]

In the US, it is Nielsen Marketing Research that creates the "TV markets", otherwise known as DMA's (Designated Market Areas).

San Francisco, Oakland and San Jose generally receive the same ABC, CBS, NBC and Fox affiliates throughout the region. Washington, DC and Baltimore do not.It isn't my Toronto-Hamilton combined area, it is the television market as defined by BBM Canada.

According to the list, Kitchener-London is its own market. And if Hamilton were to get a team, it would be just like the LA market sharing the Kings and the Ducks.

That all seems good and fine, but what does it truly tell us about each possible relocation or expansion market and the potential number of fans/views for a franchise that might end up in that market? Just because a game is broadcast covering a specific broad area, does that mean that there's a significant chance that a high number of viewers will tune in across that whole area?

 

[Melrose Munch]

Listen,

Most people do not like pro sports despite what the media portrays. Even in New york with its 8 or so million TV only a few watch their sports teams. Other than the Super Bowl, regular TV crushes sports everytime. So in a sense Orr is right.

 

[worstfaceoffmanever]

I thought Nashville was fine.

They are. They're breaking even and had one of their best years at the gate ever this season, checking in at 94% of capacity. The marketing department has finally gotten things together after years of SNAFU, and they've got a growing corporate base that will allow the team the financial wiggle room to retain its best players.

They were a threat to move a few years ago, but with consortium local ownership and a strong lease deal in place, the team is back on solid ground and its growth is only trending upward.

 

[Melrose Munch]

They are. They're breaking even and had one of their best years at the gate ever this season, checking in at 94% of capacity. The marketing department has finally gotten things together after years of SNAFU, and they've got a growing corporate base that will allow the team the financial wiggle room to retain its best players.

They were a threat to move a few years ago, but with consortium local ownership and a strong lease deal in place, the team is back on solid ground and its growth is only trending upward.

Good. Great to hear.

 

[HamiltonFan]

I'm going to ask you to show your math that a "typical sunbelt team" has operating losses of forty million a year. I'm also not sure what sunbelt teams have to do with this, since Omaha is nearly as far north as Chicago.

I also don't think you can point to Toronto as definitive proof that minor league attendance is not indicative of potential NHL attendance. The Chicago Wolves are regularly in the top 5 in AHL attendance, and when they were around the Philadelphia Phantoms were setting AHL attendance records.

As you probably know, nobody can be certain about operating losses because, with the exception of the coyotes bankrupcy documents, nhl teams don't post their financial numbers. We can, however, make educated guesses. Here are the 2008-9 financials for the coyotes. Note that this season's numbers are largely pre bankrupcy numbers, and are largely unaffected by the 'damage done by the bankrupcy itself', as the nhl lovers on these boards are fond of saying.
http://assets.sbnation.com/assets/146346/coyotes-financials.jpg
Including revenue sharing of $13.5 million, the operating losses that year were $27 million. In other words, real operating losses were 40.5 million. Recent reports out of phoenix suggest 40 million in losses this year, which means about 54 million in real losses once the revenue sharing component is not included. Some of the extreme nhl biased posters will dispute those press reported figures, you're free to believe who you like.
It's been widely reported recently that the thrashers have lost $130 million since 2005. Let's call that about $20 million a year. Add the $14 million revenue sharing per year, and they've got a real operating loss of $34 million per year.
Florida has tarped off large sections of their upper deck due to bad attendance. For the seats that remain, you can literally name the price that you pay for season tickets. Under such circumstances, is it unreasonable to project that the panthers likely lose $20 million annually, or $34 million without revenue sharing?
http://www.cnbc.com/id/38641069/Team_Asks_Fans_To_Name_Their_Ticket_Price

What do sunbelt teams have to do with Omaha? Do you think the financial numbers of an Omaha franchise would be similar to the successful American teams, such as the Rangers, or would they be more likely to mirror those of atlanta, florida, phoenix etc?

 

[HamiltonFan]

Wirtz Jr. has the same block, but it's currently a non-issue since there's nobody wanting to bring a team to Milwaukee at the moment and negotiate indemnity fees. From the sound of it, Milwaukee would need a new barn as well; Bradley Center isn't in terribly good shape.

How do you know nobody wants to bring a team to Milwaukee? Say a Milwaukee billionaire, let's call him Mr. Miller, approached little gary, and little gary, due to the Wirtz block that you mentioned, told Mr Miller that the nhl is not interested in Milwaukee at this time. Mr. billionaire Miller, because he wants to 'play by the nhl's rules', politely thanks the lying little weasel bettman for his time, and quietly makes his departure. Obviously, nothing gets reported in the press. How would the general public, or people on these boards, know that that ever happened?
If something like this ever makes it to the public stage, and is reported in the press, then that means that Mr. billionaire Miller is not playing by the 'hush hush keep it quiet' nhl rules. That's when all the pro nhl armchair loudmouths on these boards start chirping in, saying that Mr Miller is nothing but a troublemaker, doesn't play by the rules, and doesn't deserve a franchise. Sound familiar? Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

 

[Rick Nash homework]

Listen,

Most people do not like pro sports despite what the media portrays. Even in New york with its 8 or so million TV only a few watch their sports teams. Other than the Super Bowl, regular TV crushes sports everytime. So in a sense Orr is right.

But lot more like pro sports if you think about it.

 

[MoreOrr]

But lot more like pro sports if you think about it.

I wouldn't argue that there is at least a significant % that like to watch pro sports, but just saying that this or that broad TV market has a certain audience number doesn't mean that any significant % of that number is going to tune in to the NHL, especially if proximity to the arena isn't close enough for many of them who have never had any other contact with hockey. On the other hand, give them a team that's directly in their vicinity, in addition to TV access, and now you've perhaps doubled the chances that they will either attend the games or watch them on TV or both.

 

[Buck Aki Berg]

What do sunbelt teams have to do with Omaha? Do you think the financial numbers of an Omaha franchise would be similar to the successful American teams, such as the Rangers, or would they be more likely to mirror those of atlanta, florida, phoenix etc?

Why are these the only options? I sure as hell don't think they'd be the Rangers, but you have nothing to support the notion that they'd lose Phoenix-type money.

How do you know nobody wants to bring a team to Milwaukee? Say a Milwaukee billionaire, let's call him Mr. Miller, approached little gary, and little gary, due to the Wirtz block that you mentioned, told Mr Miller that the nhl is not interested in Milwaukee at this time. Mr. billionaire Miller, because he wants to 'play by the nhl's rules', politely thanks the lying little weasel bettman for his time, and quietly makes his departure. Obviously, nothing gets reported in the press. How would the general public, or people on these boards, know that that ever happened?
If something like this ever makes it to the public stage, and is reported in the press, then that means that Mr. billionaire Miller is not playing by the 'hush hush keep it quiet' nhl rules. That's when all the pro nhl armchair loudmouths on these boards start chirping in, saying that Mr Miller is nothing but a troublemaker, doesn't play by the rules, and doesn't deserve a franchise. Sound familiar? Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

What I got out of this is that you think Gary Bettman told a lie about the NHL not being interested in Milwaukee, and that he is a weasel for having said that. Do you have any sources to support either of your claims?

Better yet, do you have any bread crumbs so that I can find my way back out of that post?

 

[HamiltonFan]

What I got out of this is that you think Gary Bettman told a lie about the NHL not being interested in Milwaukee, and that he is a weasel for having said that. Do you have any sources to support either of your claims?

Better yet, do you have any bread crumbs so that I can find my way back out of that post?

Ok, I'll dumb it down for you then. I suppose I can see how the lying weasel bettman comments can cause confusion. I'll eliminate the bettman comments for the rest of this post.

Simply put, how do you know nobody is interested in a Milwaukee franchise? Because nothing has been reported in the media, or here on HFboards? Brilliant thinking! Just because you haven't heard of any interest in a Milwaukee franchise, doesn't mean such interest doesn't exist. Haven't lost you yet, have I?

If some Milwaukee billionaire wanted a team in Milwaukee, he would first approach bettman with his interest. If, as you contend, the Wirtz veto exists, then bettman would say that the nhl is not interested in a Milwaukee team at this point. Still with me? Then, if this Milwaukee billionaire wants to 'play by the nhl's rules', and keep his options open for a future nhl franchise, he shuts his mouth, and simply leaves bettman's office without another word. Nobody, including yourself and the rest of us here on HFboards, knows that the meeting ever took place.

So I repeat, how is it that you know that there's nobody interested in a Milwaukee franchise?

I don't think I can simplify this post any further. If you can't understand this, then too bad.

 

[Grudy0]

Ok, I'll dumb it down for you then. I suppose I can see how the lying weasel bettman comments can cause confusion. I'll eliminate the bettman comments for the rest of this post.

Simply put, how do you know nobody is interested in a Milwaukee franchise? Because nothing has been reported in the media, or here on HFboards? Brilliant thinking! Just because you haven't heard of any interest in a Milwaukee franchise, doesn't mean such interest doesn't exist. Haven't lost you yet, have I?

If some Milwaukee billionaire wanted a team in Milwaukee, he would first approach bettman with his interest. If, as you contend, the Wirtz veto exists, then bettman would say that the nhl is not interested in a Milwaukee team at this point. Still with me? Then, if this Milwaukee billionaire wants to 'play by the nhl's rules', and keep his options open for a future nhl franchise, he shuts his mouth, and simply leaves bettman's office without another word. Nobody, including yourself and the rest of us here on HFboards, knows that the meeting ever took place.

So I repeat, how is it that you know that there's nobody interested in a Milwaukee franchise?

I don't think I can simplify this post any further. If you can't understand this, then too bad.

Los Angeles Times, 9 October 1990

Los Angeles Times, 2 Feburary 1994

The Bradley Center is now way out of date. It was never built with the needed luxury boxes started with the United Center in the early 1990's, and the guy that owns the NBA's Milwaukee Bucks only owns them so they don't move out of the state.

There may be "interest" in an NHL team for Milwaukee, but there certainly isn't an owner that is stepping up and a suitable place to play. We all know that the State of Wisconsin cannot chip in any funds for a new arena, with the recent budget fight there that made big-time national news in the United States.

 

[9876]

As you probably know, nobody can be certain about operating losses because, with the exception of the coyotes bankrupcy documents, nhl teams don't post their financial numbers. We can, however, make educated guesses. Here are the 2008-9 financials for the coyotes. Note that this season's numbers are largely pre bankrupcy numbers, and are largely unaffected by the 'damage done by the bankrupcy itself', as the nhl lovers on these boards are fond of saying. [

Source?