Future Relocation Possibilities

[richo]

Maybe a stupid question, but where does Seattle's NBA team play? What is the state of the facility? I also have often wondered why there's no NHL in Seattle or Portland. Someone mentioned no interest in hockey. But, before the Sharks came in here in the Bay Area, it was hard to find people here who were hockey fans. Many of the current fans have been won over by the Sharks. They make attending a game very kid and family oriented and draw very well. Having a very competitive team for years hasn't hurt either.

Mod: deleted.

 

[Killion]

If JB said he wanted a team for houston or any other city in the USA (and keep it there), then he'd have a team......

Wowee HamiltonFan!. Thats all Im gonna say bout' dat.

Honestly, I dont believe Jim Balsillie would be welcomed into the club if he promised to buy the Florida Panthers, Phoenix Coyotes or any other financial loser of a club & signed a no-movement contract into the 22nd Century. He wouldnt so its moot & insults the guys intelligence suggesting he would. I do believe however that if the NHL approached expansion/relo to Hamilton honestly & opened it up for bidding, they'd not only accept his bid but also award him the franchise if it was the best one on offer. Seems the only real disagreement you and I have is over Gary Bettman. I think your seething contempt for the man is misplaced, but, your not alone, and, your entitled to your opinion. Ya, he's prickly. Ya, he barely conceals his contempt for reporters asking uncomfortable questions, obfuscates & re-sets the agenda buttons blah blah blah, but guess what?. I actually like the guy & admire the job he's done over the past 15+ years. But go ahead & fire away at him if it makes you feel better.

 

[headsigh]

Maybe a stupid question, but where does Seattle's NBA team play? What is the state of the facility? I also have often wondered why there's no NHL in Seattle or Portland. Someone mentioned no interest in hockey. But, before the Sharks came in here in the Bay Area, it was hard to find people here who were hockey fans. Many of the current fans have been won over by the Sharks. They make attending a game very kid and family oriented and draw very well. Having a very competitive team for years hasn't hurt either.

Seattle's NBA team moved to Oklahoma City.

 

[Killion]

Maybe a stupid question, but where does Seattle's NBA team play? What is the state of the facility? I also have often wondered why there's no NHL in Seattle or Portland.

The Sonics?. Long gone richo. They play in Oklahoma City now. They left Seattle when the city wouldnt cough up taxpayer funding for a new building. The one that they played out of in Seattle was re-configured after construction several times over the past 20+ years upon the Sonics' requests that made it virtually unsuitable for anything but basketball. Seattle is out. Portland is possible, with Paul Allen & the Trailblazers etc as discussed earlier in this thread.

 

[9876]

It amazes me in the rush to add teams in the sunbelt, the NHL totally skipped over the much more lucrative NW which has the money, a more stable, less transient base, and is more naturally fit for hockey.

I've thought about this, and the thinking I came up with all has to do with time.

Time is one thing which costs the league every second of every day (it will continue in perpetuity too). They're always giving up time to develope a fanbase in another market given their constraint on the number of teams allowed.

With regards to nontraditional markets, I would say they need the most time to grow their fanbases. Giving them franchises earlier maximizes the amount of time in the market, thus making them more competitive and comparable to future expansion teams in traditional markets.

If you wait too long then the discrepancy between established traditional markets and fresh nontraditional markets will just grow.

Simply put order matters given the cost of time.

 

[Blacksheep71]

Buffet only invests in enterprises that make money. He wouldn't touch an Omaha nhl team with a zillion foot pole.

Interesting

So what you are saying is that despite him investing in the Omaha Storm Chasers AAA baseball team which is losing money because they can barely fill a third/quarter of the Johnny Rosenblatt stadium (they are currently moving from a 24,000 seat to a 6,000 seat field)

He won't invest in a NHL team when there is already an arena in place used currently for Ice Hockey with the UNO Mavericks and where 3 Nebraskan USHL teams in the Omaha Lancers, Lincoln Stars and Tri-City Storm routinely have extremely high attendances

Could you explain your financial reasoning behind your statement????

Because your remark makes no sense

 

[Blacksheep71]

No, no taxpayer appetite to fund an arena in Seattle; Portland is possible as Allen employs several ex-NHL team exec's who may be making a case to him for bringing in a franchise; I doubt very much if the NHL would hold off on KC if an owner wanted to move a team there however obviously they dont appear to have anyone soliciting to buy for relo; Houston would be great & could still happen; we discussed Austin as a possibility as well, a very intriguing market to say the least. Omaha's an interesting suggestion, your case for it well reasoned. MoreOrr also suggested one that caught many by surprise, myself included; Tulsa. Omaha & Tulsa would be a natural rivalry. Do you know if the corporate sectors in those markets are large enough to support NHL pricing?.

I think you'd look to somewhere with an arena already in place.

Texas would create issues for the Dallas Stars and the NHL may want to avoid a city where they will be the 4th of the major league teams. Have Atlanta, Phoenix and Florida struggled because they are coming into areas with major fans support going to other teams?

Austin doesn't have an arena and are spending hundreds of millions on a new Formula 1 circuit costing up to $300m.

Omaha has 9 Fortune1000 companies HQ'd there including 5 in the Fortune500. Unlike KC (which has the Chiefs and the Royals) there is no major league competition but unlike Columbus, a history of Ice Hockey support. It has also 1st on Forbes fastest recovering cities. And you can say the Nebraskan winter supports winter sports and rivalries with the Wild and Blues.

I think any ownership group will want to look at fan support as much as corporate revenue streams. No-one wants executive box leases in a half full arena

 

[HamiltonFan]

Interesting

So what you are saying is that despite him investing in the Omaha Storm Chasers AAA baseball team which is losing money because they can barely fill a third/quarter of the Johnny Rosenblatt stadium (they are currently moving from a 24,000 seat to a 6,000 seat field)

He won't invest in a NHL team when there is already an arena in place used currently for Ice Hockey with the UNO Mavericks and where 3 Nebraskan USHL teams in the Omaha Lancers, Lincoln Stars and Tri-City Storm routinely have extremely high attendances

Could you explain your financial reasoning behind your statement????

Because your remark makes no sense

You're really going to argue that an nhl team in Omaha, Nebraska would be financially viable? I'm afraid that even the evil poison dwarf dictator would get a good chuckle out of that one.

For starters, attendance numbers for minor league hockey teams has zero correlation to attendance for nhl teams. The number one nhl city by far in terms of fan support, toronto, has pretty bad AHL support, not to mention non inspiring OHL numbers in the GTA.
Metro Omaha has a population of just over 800,000. Your typical sunbelt team, with an average metro population of about 4 million, recieves a $14 million revenue sharing cheque each year, and still manages to lose around $25 million per year. That's about $40 million in operating losses per year. Granted, Omaha has an advantage over these sterling sunbelt teams in that it doesn't have any of the 3 major North American sport leagues as competition, but to suggest that the (approximately) 60th largest metro population in the USA can even remotely come close to properly supporting an nhl team is pretty unrealistic.

 

[richo]

Seattle's NBA team moved to Oklahoma City.

Shows how much I follow basketball. I still think interest could be generated in the Northwest as it has in the Bay Area.

 

[Jesus Christ Horburn]

1) Quebec City
2) Hamilton
3) Seattle (I know they don't have an arena yet, but an NHL could fill the void left by the Sonics).
4) Milwaukee (they love hockey in Wisconsin)
5) Portland

 

[dtones520]

I think that somewhere in Wisconsin would be a great place for hockey in the US. Im actually surprised that they have never had a there or had real serious talks of starting one up. Every other major sport is in Wisconsin and the University of Wisconsin is one of the biggest drawing teams in the NCAA.

 

[JMROWE]

Here is a list of the gretest unserved sports markets in North America .

NHL.
Hamilton
Winnipeg
Quebec City
Portland
Seattle
Milwaukee

NFL.
Los Angeles

NBA.
Kansas City \ St. Louis
Las Vegas
Anaheim
Vancouver - The NBA. can work in vancouver if the team was marketed right

MLB.
Portland
Monteral - Same as Vancouver with NBA. if the team is marketed right & if the build a new ballpark MLB. can work in Montreal
North Carolina
Tennessee

CFL.
Halifax
Moncton
Quebec City
Western Ontario - London\Windsor
Victoria
Portland Or.
Spokane Wa.
Up State New York - Rochester\Syracuse
Bosie Id.
Milwuakee Wi.
Alaska

MLS.
Phoenix - Huge latin Population
Hamilton - Huge Italian & Eastern European Population
San Antonio - Huge Latin Population

Please note I put the cites in each list in the exact order they should go in .

 

[MoreOrr]

Here is a list of the gretest unserved sports markets in North America .

NHL.
Hamilton
Winnipeg
Quebec City
Portland
Seattle
Milwaukee

NFL.
Los Angeles

NBA.
Kansas City \ St. Louis
Las Vegas
Anaheim
Vancouver - The NBA. can work in vancouver if the team was marketed right

MLB.
Portland
Monteral - Same as Vancouver with NBA. if the team is marketed right & if the build a new ballpark MLB. can work in Montreal
North Carolina
Tennessee

CFL.
Halifax
Moncton
Quebec City
Western Ontario - London\Windsor
Victoria
Portland Or.
Spokane Wa.
Up State New York - Rochester\Syracuse
Bosie Id.
Milwuakee Wi.
Alaska

MLS.
Phoenix - Huge latin Population
Hamilton - Huge Italian & Eastern European Population
San Antonio - Huge Latin Population

Please note I put the cites in each list in the exact order they should go in .

Made a few changes to your list of unserved major league sports markets:

NHL.
Hamilton
Winnipeg
Quebec City
Portland
Seattle
Remove:
Milwaukee
(Milwaukee could be considered as a good hockey market, but I seriously doubt that it can support more major league teams.)

NFL.
Los Angeles
Add:
Portland
Salt Lake City

NBA.
Kansas City \ St. Louis
Add:
Seattle
Louisville
San Diego
Remove:
Las Vegas
Anaheim
Vancouver - The NBA. can work in vancouver if the team was marketed right
(Las Vegas in truth really isn't a place for any major league sport. The LA area already has two NBA teams. And there's no great reason to think that the NBA should try going back to Vancouver before a fairly long list of other cities.)

MLB.
Portland
North Carolina (Raleigh)
Add:
Albuquerque
Vancouver
Remove:
Montreal - Same as Vancouver with NBA. if the team is marketed right & if the build a new ballpark MLB. can work in Montreal
Tennessee
(Same with the NBA in Vancouver, I don't see any particular reason for why MLB should go running back to Montreal. Also not sure that Tennessee can really support more major league teams.)

CFL.
Halifax / Moncton
Remove all the below:
Quebec City
Western Ontario - London \ Windsor
Victoria
Portland Or.
Spokane Wa.
Up State New York - Rochester \ Syracuse
Bosie Id.
Milwuakee Wi.
Alaska
(Why should the CFL try to be in any of those places?)

MLS.
Completely different list:
Miami and / or Orlando
Atlanta
Charlotte
El Paso
San Diego

Of course, in some of those cases, it would be a matter of whichever major league got there first, because a city such as Portland probably couldn't support two more major league franchises.

 

[Melrose Munch]

The MLS failing in Miami was rather amazing. It would work this time.

 

[JMROWE]

Made a few changes to your list of unserved major league sports markets:

NHL.
Hamilton
Winnipeg
Quebec City
Portland
Seattle
Remove:
Milwaukee
(Milwaukee could be considered as a good hockey market, but I seriously doubt that it can support more major league teams.)

NFL.
Los Angeles
Add:
Portland
Salt Lake City

NBA.
Kansas City \ St. Louis
Add:
Seattle
Louisville
San Diego
Remove:
Las Vegas
Anaheim
Vancouver - The NBA. can work in vancouver if the team was marketed right
(Las Vegas in truth really isn't a place for any major league sport. The LA area already has two NBA teams. And there's no great reason to think that the NBA should try going back to Vancouver before a fairly long list of other cities.)

MLB.
Portland
North Carolina (Raleigh)
Add:
Albuquerque
Vancouver
Remove:
Montreal - Same as Vancouver with NBA. if the team is marketed right & if the build a new ballpark MLB. can work in Montreal
Tennessee
(Same with the NBA in Vancouver, I don't see any particular reason for why MLB should go running back to Montreal. Also not sure that Tennessee can really support more major league teams.)

CFL.
Halifax / Moncton
Remove all the below:
Quebec City
Western Ontario - London \ Windsor
Victoria
Portland Or.
Spokane Wa.
Up State New York - Rochester \ Syracuse
Bosie Id.
Milwuakee Wi.
Alaska
(Why should the CFL try to be in any of those places?)

MLS.
Completely different list:
Miami and / or Orlando
Atlanta
Charlotte
El Paso
San Diego

Of course, in some of those cases, it would be a matter of whichever major league got there first, because a city such as Portland probably couldn't support two more major league franchises.

Ok I read your list & this I think .

NHL.
You might be right about Milwaukee so I am going replace it with Kansas City because it seems the NHL. dose want to put a team back there .

NFL.
I think the only other city than Los Angeles the NFL. would consider putting a team is San Antonio .

MLB.
You might be right about putting MLB. team in Vancouver when you consider most of Canada's great baseball players are from British Columbia

CFL.
Why would the CFL. go to thoses places I tell you why 1. Quebec is football hot bed for NCCA division 1. schools right now not to mention that they get over 20.000 plus out for canadian college football that happens no where else in canada 2. Victoria is the only other city in Canada after Halifax , Moncton , Quebec City that can suport a CFL. Franchise 3. USA expansion why not I know it failed before but that was do to some bad marketing & going to far south but if the CFL. dose its homework & put teams the northern or border states it can work .

MLS.
I agree with all thoses cites but Phoenix has huge latin population that could suport an MLS. franchise as for Hamilton we have a huge Italian , East Indian & especially an eastern europeean commuity that thrive on soccer & MLS. team would be huge success & I am not even a soccer fan .

 

[MoreOrr]

Ok I read your list & this I think .

NHL.
You might be right about Milwaukee so I am going replace it with Kansas City because it seems the NHL. dose want to put a team back there .

NFL.
I think the only other city than Los Angeles the NFL. would consider putting a team is San Antonio .

MLB.
You might be right about putting MLB. team in Vancouver when you consider most of Canada's great baseball players are from British Columbia

CFL.
Why would the CFL. go to thoses places I tell you why 1. Quebec is football hot bed for NCCA division 1. schools right now not to mention that they get over 20.000 plus out for canadian college football that happens no where else in canada 2. Victoria is the only other city in Canada after Halifax , Moncton , Quebec City that can suport a CFL. Franchise 3. USA expansion why not I know it failed before but that was do to some bad marketing & going to far south but if the CFL. dose its homework & put teams the northern or border states it can work .

MLS.
I agree with all thoses cites but Phoenix has huge latin population that could suport an MLS. franchise as for Hamilton we have a huge Italian , East Indian & especially an eastern europeean commuity that thrive on soccer & MLS. team would be huge success & I am not even a soccer fan .

No comment about my changes to your NBA list? Just curious.

 

[Buck Aki Berg]

You're really going to argue that an nhl team in Omaha, Nebraska would be financially viable? I'm afraid that even the evil poison dwarf dictator would get a good chuckle out of that one.

For starters, attendance numbers for minor league hockey teams has zero correlation to attendance for nhl teams. The number one nhl city by far in terms of fan support, toronto, has pretty bad AHL support, not to mention non inspiring OHL numbers in the GTA.
Metro Omaha has a population of just over 800,000. Your typical sunbelt team, with an average metro population of about 4 million, recieves a $14 million revenue sharing cheque each year, and still manages to lose around $25 million per year. That's about $40 million in operating losses per year. Granted, Omaha has an advantage over these sterling sunbelt teams in that it doesn't have any of the 3 major North American sport leagues as competition, but to suggest that the (approximately) 60th largest metro population in the USA can even remotely come close to properly supporting an nhl team is pretty unrealistic.

I'm going to ask you to show your math that a "typical sunbelt team" has operating losses of forty million a year. I'm also not sure what sunbelt teams have to do with this, since Omaha is nearly as far north as Chicago.

I also don't think you can point to Toronto as definitive proof that minor league attendance is not indicative of potential NHL attendance. The Chicago Wolves are regularly in the top 5 in AHL attendance, and when they were around the Philadelphia Phantoms were setting AHL attendance records.

 

[JMROWE]

No comment about my changes to your NBA list? Just curious.

I had to think about it for a bit & here it is 1. Las Vegas is one of the USA. fastest growing cities & sonner or later some one is going to want to put a pro sports team there & I belive it wiill be the NBA. why simple Las Vegas is a huge basketball town & would be a huge success there 2. Seattle all they afto to do is build an arena & the NBA. will come along with the NHL. 3. Louisville is a college town so no 4. San Diego I doubt it because right now the city has all its focus on keeping the Chargers in San Diego 5. Anahiem looks like to going to get the Sacramento Kings next season & be called the Anahiem Royals 6. It is not a matter of if Kansas City \ St. Louis gets an NBA. team its all a matter of when .

 

[WingsFan95]

Atlanta is the next to go.

But eventually Florida if they don't make the playoffs for another decade will move too.

Nashville and Islanders are not looking great either.

 

[MoreOrr]

I had to think about it for a bit & here it is 1. Las Vegas is one of the USA. fastest growing cities & sonner or later some one is going to want to put a pro sports team there & I belive it wiill be the NBA. why simple Las Vegas is a huge basketball town & would be a huge success there 2. Seattle all they afto to do is build an arena & the NBA. will come along with the NHL. 3. Louisville is a college town so no 4. San Diego I doubt it because right now the city has all its focus on keeping the Chargers in San Diego 5. Anahiem looks like to going to get the Sacramento Kings next season & be called the Anahiem Royals 6. It is not a matter of if Kansas City \ St. Louis gets an NBA. team its all a matter of when .

We've really gone a fair bit OT with this, but nevertheless I suppose it's still a discussion of expansion/relocation cities that in some cases could apply to the NHL, even if we're pointing to another league as being a more appropriate option. So now, what cities have we omitted from any of the lists, and where might they fit in?

There's been no mention of:
Virginia Beach-Norfolk (Hampton Roads area)
Omaha
Tulsa
Austin

I realize that none of those are very big metro areas, but all of them probably could support one major league franchise, and in some cases the only major league franchise for the state.

 

[blueandgoldguy]

For potential re-location:

1. Quebec City
2. Hamilton/Toronto 2
3. Houston
4. Portland/Seattle
5. Kansas City

Little OT, but MoreOrr mentioned Salt Lake City for the NFL. How on earth will that work?? Population is barely over a million and I'm sure most of the corporate dollars in the city are already exhausted on the NBA. Saying the NFL could work in Salt Lake would be like saying MLB would work in Edmonton.

I will be really surprised if Toronto gets their NFL team. IMO, their only hope is getting the Olympics in the next 15 - 20 years. That way, they can get the federal government to pay for a stadium.

I really don't see 50,000 - 60,000 people and corporations spending $10,000 - $20,000 each on PSLs just so Toronto can build a billion dollar domed stadium, much as Rob Ford wants to believe that. Sure, there might be thousands who would be willing to pay such outrageous fees, but 50,000-60000? I don't think so. This isn't Dallas after all.

 

[Shawa666]

If we didn't get money for our stadium, then Toronto gets none from the Feds too.

 

[blueandgoldguy]

If we didn't get money for our stadium, then Toronto gets none from the Feds too.

I only think Toronto gets federal money for an Olympic stadium if they win the bid for the 20__ Summer Olympics and not a moment sooner.

 

[bhetz23]

I can tell you that honestly I don't see that happening. If the Yotes move, well there would have to be a significant chain of events to occur before the NHL could ever be viable here again in AZ. This is just not a hockey state (unfortunately), there is little tradition. Even at the collegiate level all we have are shoddy club teams not even officially sanctioned at the NCAA level. I really need to get out of here........

Don't give up hope. Dallas wasn't considered a major hockey market. The NHL took a chance, and had a franchise player to sell the sport. Now we have high school teams, kids have grown up in hockey and are now entering the NHL. It can happen.

Houston: The Oilers almost moved here. Owner of the Rockets and Toyota Center possibly still interested. Aeros' attendence aren't that bad.

Im shocked that the NHL hasn't put a team down there yet. Houston is the nation's 4th largest city, has alot of suburbs, and is located on the Gulf, and near Galveston which is a large tourist spot and a Spring Break hotspot.

 

[MoreOrr]

Little OT, but MoreOrr mentioned Salt Lake City for the NFL. How on earth will that work?? Population is barely over a million and I'm sure most of the corporate dollars in the city are already exhausted on the NBA. Saying the NFL could work in Salt Lake would be like saying MLB would work in Edmonton.

I was simply tossing in Salt Lake as a possible option for the NFL, but how is it less likely than cities like Buffalo and New Orleans that support two major league franchises? Salt Lake City is at least growing, whereas those other two are shrinking. Milwaukee also isn't that much larger, also with two major league franchises, plus the NFL just up the road, and yet people still talk about it possibly supporting an NHL team. And although Milwaukee is still growing, SLC growth rate is 4 times that of Milwaukee.

Just saying that I don't think it was such an outlandish suggestion, plus, with the NFL, attendance is only needed for 16 games a year, plus the playoffs.