Future of minor league hockey & the echl

[royals119]

Baltimore, Maryland (Royal Farms Arena)- Baltimore has a long minor league history and I believe that they host a Capitals pre season game every year so the arena does have ice. Seems like a nice set up for hockey however it may be an AHL town.

There has been talk, on and off, about building a new arena 6-7000, for an ECHL team in Maryland, Delaware over the last ten years, but nothing for a while.

Beaumont, Texas (Ford Arena)

- This would obviously only work if Houston does not get a team due to their proximity. The facility seems perfect for the ECHL. I know they struggled with fan support years ago but could the absence of the AHL in Houston and games against Allen help?

I was there for a couple games when they had the Wildcatters. The talk in the area at the time was there was some stuff done in the process of getting the arena built that made a lot of locals mad. Many vowed never to support anything at the building due to the local politics. It has been a long time though, so maybe a new team would do better.

Las Vegas, Nevada (Orleans Arena)-

The Orleans booted the Wranglers even though they were a successful franchise. With hockey's new popularity in Vegas is it possible they admit they made a mistake and bring a team back. A Reno Vs. Las Vegas ECHL connection could be nice. However, I could see the Golden Knights using the arena for their AHL team down the road.

I heard the Orleans took the ice out and remodeled that space to better suit entertainment acts (concerts, comedians, etc). I haven't been there for many years, so I don't know for sure.

 

[CHRDANHUTCH]

There has been talk, on and off, about building a new arena 6-7000, for an ECHL team in Maryland, Delaware over the last ten years, but nothing for a while.


I was there for a couple games when they had the Wildcatters. The talk in the area at the time was there was some stuff done in the process of getting the arena built that made a lot of locals mad. Many vowed never to support anything at the building due to the local politics. It has been a long time though, so maybe a new team would do better.


I heard the Orleans took the ice out and remodeled that space to better suit entertainment acts (concerts, comedians, etc). I haven't been there for many years, so I don't know for sure.

Baltimore aka Monumental is more focused on the Mystics/Wizards end of their core business as they developed the Mystics practice facility, and started the Capital City Go-Go NBA G league franchise(the Go-Go is the Wizards Dance cheer squad)

 

[Centrum Hockey]

It is possible that the focus on "former markets" is a problem. I'd certainly think a focus on large markets (thinking about the San Francisco Spiders, for instance) is also a problem. Former markets remember the failures (especially the arena operators), larger markets are expensive in which to operate (despite likely cheaper transportation access).

Are there workarounds... or can you target nearby markets to maybe draw the real target markets in? Maybe. For instance, Beaumont to me is so burned that the idea is simply a no-go... but how about Waco? OKC fans will probably be wondering why ECHL when they have the NBA (every market will have a different excuse). Houston is a market that would seem to be able to accommodate a smaller suburban arena, but will that fly and can you market there?

Little Rock seems like a smart target.

The more I think about Reno, the more I wonder if depending on anything but their own newly built arena (for which the city will not help) is a problem. The Convention Center used to host WCHL games, but convention centers live to convention on weekends, not sport. The Events Center started primarily by hosting acts too big for the nearby casinos, and Saturdays tend to be booked there, too.

Albuquerque... that's a tough one. It seems like the size of market you want, but I'd bet the USL team that kicks off this year will have more cache.

I had figured out that ECHL markets at the low end were some of the more stable ones... 300,000 people in a market seemed to be a magic number 20 years ago. However, yes, 20 years ago, and hockey's shelf life in any market tends to be suspect. Then there's emerging ones like Eugene and Lubbock (and eventually Gainesville) which are college towns, maybe Columbus GA... and Lincoln and Green Bay are USHL markets.

Just under that line but growing... Wilmington NC, Tri-Cities (WHL), Clarksville TN, San Luis Obispo, Olympia, Santa Cruz, Laredo, and the aforementioned Gainesville and Waco. BTW, sense a pattern?

Now add the increasing national distaste for public funding of arenas.

Smaller markets than even what's been mentioned above probably should be considered, especially ones with little nearby competition, and a place where an owner can afford to build or could become the main tenant with not too much work... and good luck with that. Thing is... Billings? Charleston WV?

OKC Has Never had a truly bad NBA team they have consistently had Chris Paul,Kevin Durant,James Harden,Russell Westbrook,Paul George its kinda overstated that its a Great sports market the WNBA and AHL tanked in Oklahoma

 

[Hurricane Ron]

OKC Has Never had a truly bad NBA team they have consistently had Chris Paul, Kevin Durant ,Russell Westbrook , Paul George its kinda overstated that its a Great sports market the WNBA and AHL tanked in Oklahoma

The WNBA was not in Oklahoma City, it was in Tulsa. I won't bore hockey fans with the short terrible history of the Tulsa Shock. The AHL moved in OKC after the NBA had arrived in OKC. The CHL Blazers had taken a hit in attendance when the Sonics arrived in OKC, and things only got worse for the AHL Barons. There are only so many entertainment dollars around, and a more than competitive NBA team has secured the majority of the sports entertainment dollar in the OKC area.

In short, I don't see an ECHL team coming to OKC anytime soon. It would be a great fit with Tulsa, Wichita, Allen and KC, but the issues with competing not just with the Thunder but their NBA Minor League Team I think would be too much to overcome.

Little Rock actually had two minor league hockey teams back in 2000, the ECHL Arkansas RiverBlades and the WPHL Arkansas GlacierCats. Both teams were out of business by 2003. With a gap now of 16 years since there was a team playing there, I have to believe if a team was viable in Central Arkansas, it would have happened by now. A team could have been pursued years ago in either the CHL or SPHL.

 

[Barclay Donaldson]

Smaller markets than even what's been mentioned above probably should be considered, especially ones with little nearby competition, and a place where an owner can afford to build or could become the main tenant with not too much work... and good luck with that. Thing is... Billings? Charleston WV?

The smaller markets always have an uphill battle, but it's beautiful when they have the perfect combination of dedicated ownership, a great arena with a lease to match, and being more or less the only option for entertainment let alone hockey. Case in point is Utica: 300,000 person metro area they draw from, great old barn in the Aud, the Nucks are dedicated to keeping the team there, and there isn't much to do in Utica-Rome most nights besides acquire drugs in a blown out building. Perfect storm.

Not sure about Charleston, but Billings' biggest obstacle is their arena. Last year, they created a committee to see how feasible it would be to have hockey there if they dropped the $5 mil just to make the rink ready. They ended up saying that they weren't going to do it and there hasn't been anything out of there to suggest that they could make it work. The arena has enough other stuff going on that no one is going to create an ownership group to get a pro hockey team out of border.

 

[JMCx4]

... I heard the Orleans took the ice out and remodeled that space to better suit entertainment acts (concerts, comedians, etc). I haven't been there for many years, so I don't know for sure.

Orleans Arena hosted the Continental Cup curling competition earlier this month. Not entirely clear from the event descriptions & facility photos that I could find on the web, but it sure looked like the curling lanes were based on a full sheet of ice below vs. individual chilling zones.

The existence of an ice plant @ Orleans still would not convince me that LV is a viable candidate for the return of minor pro hockey, though. WAY too much competition for the entertainment dollar there, even if the Golden Knights fully subsidized an AHL affiliate team. Playing in front of a few hundred fans on weekends is not conducive to player development & retention in the long run.

 

[Drake88]

Orleans Arena hosted the Continental Cup curling competition earlier this month. Not entirely clear from the event descriptions & facility photos that I could find on the web, but it sure looked like the curling lanes were based on a full sheet of ice below vs. individual chilling zones.

The existence of an ice plant @ Orleans still would not convince me that LV is a viable candidate for the return of minor pro hockey, though. WAY too much competition for the entertainment dollar there, even if the Golden Knights fully subsidized an AHL affiliate team. Playing in front of a few hundred fans on weekends is not conducive to player development & retention in the long run.

Orleans Arena also hosted a college game this season between Minnesota and North Dakota. The UNLV ACHA team also skated at the facility a couple time as well so it looks like there is still ice making capability.

I know it’s a stretch with the new NHL team but I really feel like an ECHL team could work. Those who aren’t able to get their hands on the knights tickets get a cheaper option and the ECHL gets back a market they surely didn’t want to lose in the first place.

 

[mk80]

Orleans Arena is not going to host a hockey tenant. Let's remember the casino owners kicked out the Wranglers (the whole playing in a tent idea) and while that market has been invigorated by the Golden Knights, another minor team would not work directly in the same market, especially with the NFL coming to town in a few years.

As for some of the other markets mentioned:

Little Rock has the most potential given the right ownership was found.

Colorado Springs as mentioned is jammed with college hockey so I'd rule that out, Beaumont I doubt, Houston could work if the new Rockets owner decides to put his resources toward it, New Orleans is probably out because I remember reading or hearing the Pelicans ownership doesn't want hockey in the building.

Albuquerque could work too I think given the right ownership, but playing way out in Rio Rancho is a guarentee to fail, if they build that new downtown arena to replace Tingley it would have a better shot.

 

[CHRDANHUTCH]

The WNBA was not in Oklahoma City, it was in Tulsa. I won't bore hockey fans with the short terrible history of the Tulsa Shock. The AHL moved in OKC after the NBA had arrived in OKC. The CHL Blazers had taken a hit in attendance when the Sonics arrived in OKC, and things only got worse for the AHL Barons. There are only so many entertainment dollars around, and a more than competitive NBA team has secured the majority of the sports entertainment dollar in the OKC area.

In short, I don't see an ECHL team coming to OKC anytime soon. It would be a great fit with Tulsa, Wichita, Allen and KC, but the issues with competing not just with the Thunder but their NBA Minor League Team I think would be too much to overcome.

Little Rock actually had two minor league hockey teams back in 2000, the ECHL Arkansas RiverBlades and the WPHL Arkansas GlacierCats. Both teams were out of business by 2003. With a gap now of 16 years since there was a team playing there, I have to believe if a team was viable in Central Arkansas, it would have happened by now. A team could have been pursued years ago in either the CHL or SPHL.

the direction of my post and yours, HR, seems to bear the weight here, the OKC Blue, is the franchise you are referencing there at CCC....

IRONICALLY, the Shock are now the Dallas Wings, but has no literal connection to the Mavericks or the Stars, but I suspect the reason the Shock left Detroit, was Palace Sports, who had also got Tampa Bay on the hockey map

 

[PCSPounder]

Orleans Arena is not going to host a hockey tenant. Let's remember the casino owners kicked out the Wranglers (the whole playing in a tent idea) and while that market has been invigorated by the Golden Knights, another minor team would not work directly in the same market, especially with the NFL coming to town in a few years.

The "playing in a tent" idea was something The Plaza Hotel and the Wranglers batted around for a hot 15 minutes after learning about the Orleans serving notice to the Wranglers. It would have been on the rooftop and, judging from the renovations that would be required to transport fans to said rooftop, would have been one freaking maniacal investment to pull off. I'd have gone for the sheer nuttiness of that.

Orleans has a fine arena and seems to make a fair amount of scratch from one-off basketball and conference tournaments in there, not to mention the entertainment, etc.

 

[JMCx4]

The "playing in a tent" idea was something The Plaza Hotel and the Wranglers batted around for a hot 15 minutes after learning about the Orleans serving notice to the Wranglers. It would have been on the rooftop and, judging from the renovations that would be required to transport fans to said rooftop, would have been one freaking maniacal investment to pull off. I'd have gone for the sheer nuttiness of that. ...

The Plaza owners probably figured the vast majority of folks coming in for a hockey game would get waylaid in their casino and never ask how to get up to the rink. For the diehard hockey fans, they could simply rent rock climbing equipment; or suction cups for those with a Spiderman fetish.

 

[GindyDraws]

Las Vegas is not going to host another hockey team. The fact they have an NHL team is enough for the market as is. There's a difference between them and, say, Winnipeg or Toronto, which has NHL, AHL, or junior options.

And, I joined this forum when the Houston Aeros had to move out of the Toyota Center, which happened shortly around the announcement of the Indy Fuel. And, this was during the fantastic saga of the Las Vegas Wranglers. Playing on top of a hotel, or in a parking lot was the team pulling straws.

Hockey is Arkansas is not going to happen. If it was, they would have gone for it sooner. The last serious winter attempt at minor league sports in the Natural State was the then D-League Rimrockers, and they flopped in 2007. Sports in Arkansas is limited to college (i.e. Razorback Nation) and the two baseball teams (NW Arkansas Naturals and Arkansas Travelers) in the Texas League.

 

[Avsrule2022]

If Casper or Cheyenne, Wyoming were more populated, one of those would be a great replacement for the Eagles moving to the AHL. I just don't know if there's enough people, and you would have to build a stadium most likely.

I think if the Denver Coliseum gave someone a sweetheart lease the Cutthroats could return. It's probably the only place in Colorado east of the Divide that could (or might) support a team.

My buddy from Albuquerque just laughs when you mention a hockey team in Rio Rancho.

 

[PCSPounder]

Idaho Falls would actually be a better market than Cheyenne or Casper. It's roughly the size of Rapid City as its own market, and the Cheyenne-sized market of Pocatello is 40 minutes south. Department of Energy is a big employer as nuclear power testing happens to the west, so it's hardly poor.

One problem would be flying in and out of the area (Delta flies there from Salt Lake City, but that's about it). Another, of course, got arena?

 

[JMCx4]

Idaho Falls would actually be a better market than Cheyenne or Casper. ... One problem would be flying in and out of the area (Delta flies there from Salt Lake City, but that's about it). Another, of course, got arena?

There is a "Falls" in Idaho Falls, though. If the FHL expanded there, they'd be planning for an outdoor rink on the downstream side smack dab in the middle of the Snake River. Scenic.

 

[blizzardfaninexile]

It is possible that the focus on "former markets" is a problem. I'd certainly think a focus on large markets (thinking about the San Francisco Spiders, for instance) is also a problem. Former markets remember the failures (especially the arena operators), larger markets are expensive in which to operate (despite likely cheaper transportation access).

Are there workarounds... or can you target nearby markets to maybe draw the real target markets in? Maybe. For instance, Beaumont to me is so burned that the idea is simply a no-go... but how about Waco? OKC fans will probably be wondering why ECHL when they have the NBA (every market will have a different excuse). Houston is a market that would seem to be able to accommodate a smaller suburban arena, but will that fly and can you market there?

Little Rock seems like a smart target.

The more I think about Reno, the more I wonder if depending on anything but their own newly built arena (for which the city will not help) is a problem. The Convention Center used to host WCHL games, but convention centers live to convention on weekends, not sport. The Events Center started primarily by hosting acts too big for the nearby casinos, and Saturdays tend to be booked there, too.

Albuquerque... that's a tough one. It seems like the size of market you want, but I'd bet the USL team that kicks off this year will have more cache.

I had figured out that ECHL markets at the low end were some of the more stable ones... 300,000 people in a market seemed to be a magic number 20 years ago. However, yes, 20 years ago, and hockey's shelf life in any market tends to be suspect. Then there's emerging ones like Eugene and Lubbock (and eventually Gainesville) which are college towns, maybe Columbus GA... and Lincoln and Green Bay are USHL markets.

Just under that line but growing... Wilmington NC, Tri-Cities (WHL), Clarksville TN, San Luis Obispo, Olympia, Santa Cruz, Laredo, and the aforementioned Gainesville and Waco. BTW, sense a pattern?

Now add the increasing national distaste for public funding of arenas.

Smaller markets than even what's been mentioned above probably should be considered, especially ones with little nearby competition, and a place where an owner can afford to build or could become the main tenant with not too much work... and good luck with that. Thing is... Billings? Charleston WV?

Charleston WV should never be on any list for minor league sports. As a WV native I can tell you that the economy and population of Charleston and the Kanawha Valley doesn't support minor league sports. The Class A Minor League Baseball team in Charleston has a hard time drawing 1,000 to a game and they play in a nice ballpark. As mentioned, the population of the area has decreased significantly over the last 20 years and many larger companies have left the city and state. Also, the Charleston Civic Center doesn't have ice making equipment, a 200 x 85 rink won't fit inside the seating bowl and the city runs the complex and they most likely won't give up the prime weekend dates. A team would routinely miss out on those weekend dates due to Monster Jam, Motor Trend Auto Show, an annual Outdoor Show, an annual Disney on Ice visit, the annual state high school basketball championship tournament, an annual college volleyball tournament, etc.

 

[blizzardfaninexile]

Spent some time looking around the archives lately at some former pro arenas/cities and it had me wondering whether the current landscape and economies has changed enough for them to support teams now. Usually judging by arena size or past history you can judge what league (AHL or ECHL) a city should be in but I was having trouble with these. Any recent updates on these cities?

Little Rock, Arkansas (Verizon Arena)- In my mind this could be a great fit in the ECHL Mountain division. A very nice arena from what I could tell and back in the day the Riverblades drew around 3,500. Could possibly increase with regional rivalries vs. Wichita, Tulsa, KC and Allen.
Baltimore, Maryland (Royal Farms Arena)- Baltimore has a long minor league history and I believe that they host a Capitals pre season game every year so the arena does have ice. Seems like a nice set up for hockey however it may be an AHL town.
Oklahoma City, Oklahoma (Cox Convention Center)- This one would obviously be for the ECHL. AHL hockey is no longer viable in the city but the Blazers had a great run in the CHL. Again, could reuniting with Wichita and Tulsa repair some damage.
New Orleans, Louisiana (Smoothie King Center)- The size of the city made me think AHL, but I could also see a possible ECHL return if the Pelicans would be willing to work with the team like the Solar Bears/Magic. The New Orleans Brass routinely drew about 4,500.
Houston, Texas (Toyota Center)- Most likely would fit in the AHL given the arena but would the billionaire Rockets owner be willing to test out the ECHL for an introduction in to hockey? I vaguely remember a smaller arena supposedly being built around Houston, if that is still happening a Houston team could definitely make use of it. Remember, the Aeros routinely drew 7,000 before the previous owner no longer wanted hockey.
Beaumont, Texas (Ford Arena)- This would obviously only work if Houston does not get a team due to their proximity. The facility seems perfect for the ECHL. I know they struggled with fan support years ago but could the absence of the AHL in Houston and games against Allen help?
Colorado Springs, Colorado (Broadmoor World Arena)- Colorado College is vacating this arena and considering it is not in Denver next to the Avalanche, it could work. As far as facilities I would have preferred the 1StBank Center in Broomfield, former home of the Rocky Mountain Rage but considering both the Rage and Denver Cutthroats could not last, it does not seem possible. They could form an affiliation with the Avalanche and Eagles while slotting in to the ECHL western conference.
Prescott Valley, Arizona (Tim's Toyota Center)- I was surprised the Sundogs did not make the jump to the ECHL back in 2015. Although they were not the strongest franchise, at the time they could have benefited from the shorter trips to California. Could an affiliation with Arizona/Tuscon help revive them?
Albuquerque, New Mexico (Santa Ana Star Center)- From what I could tell, this seems to be a nice facility that could help start another ECHL western trend. The Scorpions had a long run in the CHL in the area.
Reno, Nevada (Reno Event Center)- This one has been beat to death. I know it will probably never happen but could also help revive the western footprint of the ECHL. If the Golden Knights AHL affiliate stays in Chicago permanently or even moves to Vegas, they could act as an ECHL affiliate. Thoughts?
Las Vegas, Nevada (Orleans Arena)- The Orleans booted the Wranglers even though they were a successful franchise. With hockey's new popularity in Vegas is it possible they admit they made a mistake and bring a team back. A Reno Vs. Las Vegas ECHL connection could be nice. However, I could see the Golden Knights using the arena for their AHL team down the road.

Just a couple thoughts! Believe me I know many are pipe dreams, but just figured these were some fun bigger city possibilities .

In a perfect world, it would be great to see the ECHL return to Little Rock, Birmingham, Louisville and Peoria while putting a team in Oklahoma City. I think all of them could fit in well with the league currently, with some good rivals.

I know that Peoria has roots in the SPHL but when I see their attendance average I wonder if they're inflated or if Peoria is only drawing 3,000 fans when they used to draw close to double that in the ECHL. At least for a time. Speaking of attendance, is Huntsville really averaging 5k? If so, could they do that in ECHL and still make the finances work?

 

[GindyDraws]

Wanting a team in a market and having a team in a market are two different things.

The ECHL long left the Mississippi Delta behind, so it's unlikely a Huntsville or a Birmingham will ever come back to that level of competition. That's now the SPHL's market.

 

[SASRACE]

In a perfect world, it would be great to see the ECHL return to Little Rock, Birmingham, Louisville and Peoria while putting a team in Oklahoma City. I think all of them could fit in well with the league currently, with some good rivals.

I know that Peoria has roots in the SPHL but when I see their attendance average I wonder if they're inflated or if Peoria is only drawing 3,000 fans when they used to draw close to double that in the ECHL. At least for a time. Speaking of attendance, is Huntsville really averaging 5k? If so, could they do that in ECHL and still make the finances work?

I am a seasn ticket holder to the Huntsville Havoc and that has been my question for three years now. They have led the league in attendance and with all the transplants that have moved in with government jobs I would think that the ECHL has looked at or might have given a call to the Havoc front office

 

[Centrum Hockey]

The lack of trademarks, and whatever speculation is out there, doesn't change my opinion one iota.

Manchester Monarchs at eliteprospects.com
i know echl's teams can send players to any ahl teams but its kind of interesting the amount of players that Manchester has loaned to the ahl bruins lately
the glads have sent a lot more to Milwaukee
Atlanta Gladiators at eliteprospects.com

 

[GindyDraws]

I'm curious about the landscape of the SPHL next year. In spite of doing well in the standings, Macon is last in the league, attendance-wise, and is pulling the dreaded "Louisiana IceGators" numbers. Evansville is having a historically awful season that, naturally, scares away fans, and had a PR crisis when their coach got arrested, and it's a season like that could test the organization whether or not they should continue with the team. That may sound like paranoia, but this is minor league hockey, and to give an analogue, let's look at the Lehigh Valley Steelhawks, who play in arguably the least stable form of "minor league sports"; indoor football. The team was relatively successful, in spite of never winning a league title, they reached the league title twice in their first seven years, and then in 2018, they went 0-15. Folded a few months later. I'd like an Evansville team back in the ECHL, but due to the logistics of minor league hockey, not to mention the lease terms of Ford Center, this is more selfishness on my part.

As much as I do not want to give them credence, I am interested in the Bus League Hockey report about Columbus coming back to the SPHL, since that's a more natural footprint for the league than the midwest.

 

[CHRDANHUTCH]

I'm curious about the landscape of the SPHL next year. In spite of doing well in the standings, Macon is last in the league, attendance-wise, and is pulling the dreaded "Louisiana IceGators" numbers. Evansville is having a historically awful season that, naturally, scares away fans, and had a PR crisis when their coach got arrested, and it's a season like that could test the organization whether or not they should continue with the team. That may sound like paranoia, but this is minor league hockey, and to give an analogue, let's look at the Lehigh Valley Steelhawks, who play in arguably the least stable form of "minor league sports"; indoor football. The team was relatively successful, in spite of never winning a league title, they reached the league title twice in their first seven years, and then in 2018, they went 0-15. Folded a few months later. I'd like an Evansville team back in the ECHL, but due to the logistics of minor league hockey, not to mention the lease terms of Ford Center, this is more selfishness on my part.

As much as I do not want to give them credence, I am interested in the Bus League Hockey report about Columbus coming back to the SPHL, since that's a more natural footprint for the league than the midwest.

yup, agree, JD....

Lehigh Valley just had a team in the same league as Worcester's Massachusetts Pirates and that is on hiatus just as Portland's Maine Mammoths went that route, but that reason is no local ownership, not necessarily one thing.

 

[Fergy22]

Look for the RPCC ice surface to be obscured by sponsor advertising next season ala the Allen County WM Coliseum surface in Ft. Wayne. Might be a pitch made to the ECHL BOGs as well to expand adverts on uniforms. Good for teams, familiar for NASCAR/hockey crossover fans.

Allen County WM Coliseum surface in Ft. Wayne

 

[Centrum Hockey]

In a perfect world, it would be great to see the ECHL return to Little Rock, Birmingham, Louisville and Peoria while putting a team in Oklahoma City. I think all of them could fit in well with the league currently, with some good rivals.

I know that Peoria has roots in the SPHL but when I see their attendance average I wonder if they're inflated or if Peoria is only drawing 3,000 fans when they used to draw close to double that in the ECHL. At least for a time. Speaking of attendance, is Huntsville really averaging 5k? If so, could they do that in ECHL and still make the finances work?

What happened to the co owner of Peoria echl team who stole the ice cats is she still around

 

[Neill99]

I hope some day the Kentucky Thoroughblades would be in ECHL.