Future of minor league hockey & the echl

GareFan18

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Jan 10, 2014
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I'm just glad Kansas City has professional hockey again. And, this time we have local ownership and not the DeVos family.

Then again, we've had leagues fold out from under us before, so....
 

Fan of Many

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Dec 2, 2018
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I wonder if the ECHL should switch to a major junior league like the CHL. America has no such league. So what if players lose their NCAA eligibility? It’s their choice. America needs a junior league for markets capable of drawing 5000+ fans per game. The ECHL is pretty much here already. They pay their players and aren’t so much a bus league like the USHL.
 

mk80

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Jul 30, 2012
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I wonder if the ECHL should switch to a major junior league like the CHL. America has no such league. So what if players lose their NCAA eligibility? It’s their choice. America needs a junior league for markets capable of drawing 5000+ fans per game. The ECHL is pretty much here already. They pay their players and aren’t so much a bus league like the USHL.

I'm going to just give the simple answer here.

No, this is never going to happen. No the US will never have it's own Major Junior league.
 

210

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I wonder if the ECHL should switch to a major junior league like the CHL. America has no such league. So what if players lose their NCAA eligibility? It’s their choice. America needs a junior league for markets capable of drawing 5000+ fans per game. The ECHL is pretty much here already. They pay their players and aren’t so much a bus league like the USHL.

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Barclay Donaldson

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Feb 4, 2018
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I wonder if the ECHL should switch to a major junior league like the CHL. America has no such league. So what if players lose their NCAA eligibility? It’s their choice. America needs a junior league for markets capable of drawing 5000+ fans per game. The ECHL is pretty much here already. They pay their players and aren’t so much a bus league like the USHL.

So many no’s for this, so little space.

America has no such league for a reason. If you can’t convince the average American to spend their entertainment dollars on minor pro hockey, then getting them to even understand major junior hockey is a massive undertaking.

Who do you think it would even operate under? USA Hockey has made a point to compete directly against major junior by promoting the heck out of the USHL and NCAA as better advancement alternatives. They would laugh if you put this across their desks. The CHL has and will continue to face lawsuits from players for the age-old amateurs vs. professionals debate. There’s 20 other things I could go after, but if you think that there are EC teams that take anything other than a bus to get to their games, then we should probably just take everything you say with a grain of salt.
 
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PCSPounder

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Apr 12, 2012
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Auston Matthews

Another sport... Christian Pulisic.

I think noting the other sport matters here. If you're 55 in this country, you're laughing at the notion of doing anything but the college route. 20-year-olds are already ignoring college sports and are very aware that alternatives exist. People who are now keyed into soccer on an international scale kind of have a disdain for typical American sports business structures. This is spreading and, well, I'll just use Seattle getting an expansion team with practically zero public money rebuilding a public arena as one example of where this is headed. The business will change.

Now that doesn't mean American Major Junior is at the doorstep. More likely consider the pro development model... adjusted. MLS is likely already going to adjust its development model to reduce or even eliminate territorial restrictions (for those of you who want to cite when the NHL had territories or the like in the 1960s, just saying it won't be like that).
 
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Fan of Many

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Dec 2, 2018
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So many no’s for this, so little space.

America has no such league for a reason. If you can’t convince the average American to spend their entertainment dollars on minor pro hockey, then getting them to even understand major junior hockey is a massive undertaking.

Who do you think it would even operate under? USA Hockey has made a point to compete directly against major junior by promoting the heck out of the USHL and NCAA as better advancement alternatives. They would laugh if you put this across their desks. The CHL has and will continue to face lawsuits from players for the age-old amateurs vs. professionals debate. There’s 20 other things I could go after, but if you think that there are EC teams that take anything other than a bus to get to their games, then we should probably just take everything you say with a grain of salt.

Why would a major junior league need to be sanctioned by USA Hockey? The CHL isn’t sanctioned by Hockey Canada. If America had such a league and it paid better salaries, I think it could surpass the CHL. Maybe America could get back it’s 8 or so CHL franchises and even steal a few from Canada.
 

Barclay Donaldson

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Feb 4, 2018
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Why would a major junior league need to be sanctioned by USA Hockey? The CHL isn’t sanctioned by Hockey Canada. If America had such a league and it paid better salaries, I think it could surpass the CHL. Maybe America could get back it’s 8 or so CHL franchises and even steal a few from Canada.

Your wishful thinking is borderline delusional.

CHL is affiliated with Hockey Canada and have co-existed in one form or another for almost a century. Do you really think USA Hockey is going to let a new major junior league take a piece of the pie after they've spent the better part of 3 decades promoting the NCAA route? American kids, and every year more Euros and Canadian kids, are choosing this route over major junior. Could your wet dream side step it? Probably, it wouldn't be incredibly difficult. But there's other things your flat out ignoring.

The CHL doesn't pay in salaries, it gives the kids small stipends and then pays for the average college tuition value, which is pretty cheap in Canada. No one is choosing major junior for the $200 per week. The second those kids get salaries like you mentioned, those amateur vs. professional lawsuits won't be held up in court anymore. But then there's more.

The 8 or so American CHL franchises are in two different leagues thousands of miles apart. The longest WHL trip is probably Portland to Brandon, MB and that's literally half of Portland to Erie. Erie's longest road trip isn't even close to a thousand miles! But wait, there's more!

No one from the ECHL is going to leave. Read any of the articles out there about how Fort Wayne, Idaho, and Utah owners don't want AHL franchises and how Colorado had to be courted for years before they became the Avalanche's affiliate. If they don't want AHL franchises, they definitely aren't going for major juniors. But then again, you think that EC teams don't bus to just about every game.
 

Fan of Many

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Dec 2, 2018
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Your wishful thinking is borderline delusional.

CHL is affiliated with Hockey Canada and have co-existed in one form or another for almost a century. Do you really think USA Hockey is going to let a new major junior league take a piece of the pie after they've spent the better part of 3 decades promoting the NCAA route? American kids, and every year more Euros and Canadian kids, are choosing this route over major junior. Could your wet dream side step it? Probably, it wouldn't be incredibly difficult. But there's other things your flat out ignoring.

The CHL doesn't pay in salaries, it gives the kids small stipends and then pays for the average college tuition value, which is pretty cheap in Canada. No one is choosing major junior for the $200 per week. The second those kids get salaries like you mentioned, those amateur vs. professional lawsuits won't be held up in court anymore. But then there's more.

The 8 or so American CHL franchises are in two different leagues thousands of miles apart. The longest WHL trip is probably Portland to Brandon, MB and that's literally half of Portland to Erie. Erie's longest road trip isn't even close to a thousand miles! But wait, there's more!

No one from the ECHL is going to leave. Read any of the articles out there about how Fort Wayne, Idaho, and Utah owners don't want AHL franchises and how Colorado had to be courted for years before they became the Avalanche's affiliate. If they don't want AHL franchises, they definitely aren't going for major juniors. But then again, you think that EC teams don't bus to just about every game.

There’s a lot I like about the ECHL.

1. They seem to reside in markets capable of drawing 5,000+ fans

2. They pay their players a salary, not a stipend

3. Perhaps most important...even though most teams are affiliated with an NHL club, they operate fairly independently (unlike the AHL). This makes winning for their city more important than player development for the parent NHL club. Anyway, this is what I’ve read.

4. Don’t take the “bus league” comment so literally

Correct me if I’m wrong, but it seems like the ECHL is more of a detour to the NHL, whereas

USHL-NCAA-AHL-NHL

or

CHL-AHL-NHL

are the more direct routes. When I originally made this post, I was thinking that major junior might be a better fit for the ECHL, since major junior tends to be more of an express route to the NHL, not a detour. Or, instead of being major junior, target more kids out of high school as a higher paying alternative than CHL. It’s just an idea to ponder, not a “wet dream” of mine.
 
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Barclay Donaldson

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Feb 4, 2018
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There’s a lot I like about the ECHL.

1. They seem to reside in markets capable of drawing 5,000+ fans

2. They pay their players a salary, not a stipend

3. Perhaps most important...even though most teams are affiliated with an NHL club, they operate fairly independently (unlike the AHL). This makes winning for their city more important than player development for the parent NHL club. Anyway, this is what I’ve read.

4. Don’t take the “bus league” comment so literally

Correct me if I’m wrong, but it seems like the ECHL is more of a detour to the NHL, whereas

USHL-NCAA-AHL-NHL

or

CHL-AHL-NHL

are the more direct routes. When I originally made this post, I was thinking that major junior might be a better fit for the ECHL, since major junior tends to be more of an express route to the NHL, not a detour. Or, instead of being major junior, target more kids out of high school as a higher paying alternative than CHL. It’s just an idea to ponder, not a “wet dream” of mine.

EC can't attract kids straight out of high school as there are better alternatives. If you're good enough to play minor pro at age 18, then, if you haven't already, you go the major junior route or play NCAA. EC players making their way into the show are few and far between. EC isn't going to butt in and start doing this. You'll be hard pressed to even find a player under 20 on an AHL roster.

And once again, major junior wouldn't be a better fit for those markets. If those owners refuse the offers to join the AHL, Kansas City and Indianapolis got offers from just St. Louis in just this past off-season, then they certainly won't create a join a major junior league.
 

Fan of Many

Registered User
Dec 2, 2018
15
1
What I’m envisioning (ECHL on the main route to the NHL as opposed to a detour) will probably never exist and you’ve confirmed that many times over the past week. Since you seem well-versed in junior/minor pro hockey, let me ask you this: do you think a market capable of drawing big crowds (>5000) in juniors would be better-off in the ECHL? This time, I’m saying keep the ECHL as it is! Examples could include Sioux Falls (USHL); Portland, Spokane, Regina, and Victoria (WHL), Halifax and Quebec City (QMJHL), and London and Kitchener (OHL). Yes, jumping to the ECHL would be more expensive. However, junior hockey (both the CHL and USHL) seems to be more for markets that draw 2-4000/game.
 
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Barclay Donaldson

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Feb 4, 2018
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What I’m envisioning (ECHL on the main route to the NHL as opposed to a detour) will probably never exist and you’ve confirmed that many times over the past week. Since you seem well-versed in junior/minor pro hockey, let me ask you this: do you think a market capable of drawing big crowds (>5000) in juniors would be better-off in the ECHL? This time, I’m saying keep the ECHL as it is! Examples could include Sioux Falls (USHL); Portland, Spokane, Regina, and Victoria (WHL), Halifax and Quebec City (QMJHL), and London and Kitchener (OHL). Yes, jumping to the ECHL would be more expensive. However, junior hockey (both the CHL and USHL) seems to be more for markets that draw 2-4000/game.

They would not. Major junior attendance is cyclical, except for a few notable exceptions like London, QC, and after looking at Sioux Falls attendance (even though they're in the UShow) I'll give them the benefit of the doubt and group them in as well. There's maybe two or three others like Kitchener and Victoria just below them. To understand why the attendance is cyclical, you need to understand how major junior teams operate.

They build through the draft. If they won't make playoffs, the overagers, best players, and anyone who will be gone within 2-3 years are quickly out the door for draft picks and young guns. The OHL especially doesn't mess around with this, trading picks for the opening rounds of the 2025 OHL Draft. They then build and compete with their now stocked cupboard, trading for players from the teams now rebuilding. After a few more years when they can't compete anymore, they trail off and start rebuilding again. Erie Otters are the best known example of this. Horrible for about 10 years building up. Then they get lucky with McDavid and build a contender by drafting players like Raddysh, Strome and then bringing in others like Debrincat and Cirelli. Their attendance bottomed out, skyrocketed, and is now on its way back down again. Regina was below 4,000/game as recently as 2013, but the attendance grew as they built up for the Mem Cup this past year. Halifax follows the same trend, seeing a huge bump when Drouin and MacKinnon played. Portland bottomed out at 3,500 in 2008-09 and peaked when the made it to the Mem Cup finals, now it's on its downswing.

ECHL on-ice performance isn't very cyclical at all. There's no draft, they can't tank for a few years and then start to build. It's a constant battle for free agents, good contracts, and call-downs from the Show and the AHL. And those markets I mentioned earlier, for one reason or another, won't join the EC. Kitchener and London have operated those junior teams for a long time and those fans and ownership want junior hockey, they won't change. Victoria got rid of their EC team for the Royals in 2010. QC will watch any hockey put in that building, as long as there's no English, but they're still NHL or bust. And Sioux Falls we already went over in the other thread.

The whole thing doesn't and won't work.
 
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CHRDANHUTCH

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Mar 4, 2002
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Auburn, Maine
What I’m envisioning (ECHL on the main route to the NHL as opposed to a detour) will probably never exist and you’ve confirmed that many times over the past week. Since you seem well-versed in junior/minor pro hockey, let me ask you this: do you think a market capable of drawing big crowds (>5000) in juniors would be better-off in the ECHL? This time, I’m saying keep the ECHL as it is! Examples could include Sioux Falls (USHL); Portland, Spokane, Regina, and Victoria (WHL), Halifax and Quebec City (QMJHL), and London and Kitchener (OHL). Yes, jumping to the ECHL would be more expensive. However, junior hockey (both the CHL and USHL) seems to be more for markets that draw 2-4000/game.
you need to research why pro hockey left Atlantic Canadian markets, St. John's/Newfoundland is the exception and why the scene has shifted westward
 

Cyclones Rock

Registered User
Jun 12, 2008
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Quick Quiz. The 2007-08 ECHL had 25 teams to begin the season. How many of those franchises are still playing in the same city now as they were in 2007-08?

ECHL 2008-04-05

You can figure out the answer from the link.
 

Cyclones Rock

Registered User
Jun 12, 2008
10,587
6,489
I count 8. Cincy, Reading, Wheeling, SC, Florida, Gwinnett (Atlanta), Utah, Idaho
That be it.

8 out of 25. But, 3 of the west coast teams were replaced by eastern teams and Toledo was on a 2 year suspension. So 12 out of 26 remain in one form or another.

Tough business. 14 out of 26 gone in a little over 10 years.
 

royals119

Registered User
Jun 12, 2006
1,457
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West Lawn, PA
Some of the other cities still have hockey also.
Elmira - FHL
Johnstown - NAHL
Charlotte, Bakersfield and Stockton - AHL
Pensacola - SPHL
Victoria - WHL
Phoenix and Vegas - NHL

Love that playoff system and divisions too. One team eliminated from the two west divisions (9 teams total between two divisions). One team eliminated from the 9 team south division, and 2 from the seven team north (one game play-in between 4 and 5 I think). People still complain now about the unbalanced schedule, but that was a wacky setup. I think some divisions played 5 game playoff series and some played 7 games to make the timing work out.
 

Sports Enthusiast

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Sep 19, 2010
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That be it.

8 out of 25. But, 3 of the west coast teams were replaced by eastern teams and Toledo was on a 2 year suspension. So 12 out of 26 remain in one form or another.

Tough business. 14 out of 26 gone in a little over 10 years.

And they tout this whole stable spiel.

We can't really have the future dicussion without stepping outside the box of hockey. Most minor league teams arent profitable. All it would take to mess with the landscape is another 08-09 scenario or a worse version of what went on then.
 
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crimsonace

Registered User
Mar 7, 2010
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Indianapolis, IN
That be it.

8 out of 25. But, 3 of the west coast teams were replaced by eastern teams and Toledo was on a 2 year suspension. So 12 out of 26 remain in one form or another.

Tough business. 14 out of 26 gone in a little over 10 years.

Things have stabilized a bit in minor pro hockey, though, and this period of the last 4-5 years is the most remarkably stable I can really remember it.

Of those, a handful were replaced by AHL teams (and the ECHL has moved into several ex-AHL markets). At that time, the UHL/IHL2 and CHL both existed as separate leagues. Their stronger franchises are now in the ECHL. The North American recession of 2007-09 was really hard on minor pro teams at all levels, but after increased NHL involvement in the ECHL-AHL-NHL ladder and consolidation of the "AA" pro leagues from five to one in a 15-year span, things have stabilized quite a bit and because of the NHL's involvement, likely will remain fairly stable.
 

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