Future HOFers: Judge them

Murphy

Registered User
Apr 2, 2005
2,104
1
Edmonton
Ogopogo said:
I have Hawerchuk at #85 and Dionne at #29. Goalies are not completed yet. As you can see, team does not have a lot to do with the ratings. The major factor is how much you stood out and dominated during your era. Perreault and Sittler were good but, they did not really stand out like Lafleur, Clarke or Trottier did.

Where does a guy like Steve Shutt fit in? I think he's a good player but would he be rated as high if he didn't play with Lafleur? I know you can't factor in what ifs, but say he played for St. Louis instead of Montreal. I doubt he'd be rated as high?

I got to see alot of Hawerchuck and think he was also a generational talent, just that he had the misfortune to play in the same era as Gretzky and Mario.

I guess what I'm having a hard time saying, lol is that when you actually watch some of these guys you can tell they're exceptional talents, regardless of the careers they actually ended up having.
 

Ogopogo*

Guest
Murphy2 said:
Where does a guy like Steve Shutt fit in? I think he's a good player but would he be rated as high if he didn't play with Lafleur? I know you can't factor in what ifs, but say he played for St. Louis instead of Montreal. I doubt he'd be rated as high?

I got to see alot of Hawerchuck and think he was also a generational talent, just that he had the misfortune to play in the same era as Gretzky and Mario.

I guess what I'm having a hard time saying, lol is that when you actually watch some of these guys you can tell they're exceptional talents, regardless of the careers they actually ended up having.

Steve Shutt comes in at #202.

The way I rate things, being behind Wayne and Mario does not significantly hurt Hawerchuk's standing. He is rated for his accomplishments and how great he really was. There were a lot of great NHLers in the history of the league, #85 is no insult at all.
 

arrbez

bad chi
Jun 2, 2004
13,352
261
Toronto
God Bless Canada said:
What's your definition of "a tier?" If a tier is a chasam to you, then you're right.

Guy LaFleur had a six-year run of dominance that was matched by maybe 5-10 players in NHL history. Guy's one of the top 10 forwards of all-time. And in that six-year stretch, he won four Cups, won a Conn Smythe, and had 110 points in 72 games. 36 more points in 11 fewer playoff games than Sundin. Guy also won another Cup in 1974.

Yzerman? Start with being a key player on three Cup champions. Won a Conn Smythe. Many argue he was deserving of the Conn Smythe in 1997 and 2002, too. (Stats weren't there in 1997, but leadership, timely offence and defensive play were). Sundin in the most important hockey? Hasn't had that career-defining, carry his team on his back playoff. Even in years when Detroit didn't win the Cup (1987 and 1996, for example), Yzerman was terrific. Everything Sundin did, Yzerman did better. And oh yeah, Yzerman has a Pearson and nearly 1,800 points.

You're weakening your argument with statements like these.


I think you missunderstood my argument. I wasn't talking about Sundin at all, I was just questioning why someone thought Perreault was in a different class than Sittler.

Trust me, I would never mistake Mats Sundin for an Yzerman or Lafleur ;)
 

arrbez

bad chi
Jun 2, 2004
13,352
261
Toronto
Ogopogo said:
Statistical dominance. My opinion of a deserving HOFer is someone that dominated his era not just a guy that was good for a long time.

Where does a guy like Davey Keon rate?

I ask this because he was never dominant statistically (although he does have a Conn Smyth from 67, and probably would have had another in 63 had the award existed). Although he scored less than 1000 NHL points, I've never heard anyone say he shouldn't be a HOF'er.
 

Ogopogo*

Guest
arrbez said:
Where does a guy like Davey Keon rate?

I ask this because he was never dominant statistically (although he does have a Conn Smyth from 67, and probably would have had another in 63 had the award existed). Although he scored less than 1000 NHL points, I've never heard anyone say he shouldn't be a HOF'er.

Davey Keon is #114 on my list. He had a very impressive career.

Although, based on my research, Johnny Bower would have been the 1963 Smythe Winner. That is the opinion of the HHOF and the Society for International Hockey Research.
 
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God Bless Canada

Registered User
Jul 11, 2004
11,793
17
Bentley reunion
arrbez said:
Where does a guy like Davey Keon rate?

I ask this because he was never dominant statistically (although he does have a Conn Smyth from 67, and probably would have had another in 63 had the award existed). Although he scored less than 1000 NHL points, I've never heard anyone say he shouldn't be a HOF'er.
I think Keon's a lot like Henri Richard. (Although not as good as the Pocket Rocket). If you look at the stats, Keon and Richard aren't that good. But as anyone who knows the game will tell you, hockey goes way beyond stats. Keon was a brilliant player. So smart. And a terrific all-round force. For the all-time draft I'm in, he was No. 1 on my list for my checking line centre. If the Selke was awarded in the 60s, Keon and Claude Provost would have likely battled for it for years.

There's a reason that many people consider Keon the best all-round forward to ever play for the Leafs. I'd say he's one of the top 100 players of all time.
 

chooch*

Guest
God Bless Canada said:
But as anyone who knows the game will tell you, hockey goes way beyond stats.

Hey! Go easy on my friend ogopogo.

As for "dominance" as I've said many times thats a ridiculous concept to try and capture by stats alone. For instance Lafleur would have scored 100 goals had he been unleashed by Bowman or played in a run and gun division. As it was he was not only the most artistic player ever but also excellent defensively, a great forechecker (both things Bowman demanded) and extremely valuable in the clutch. He also took hits to make plays and hit defencemen hard on the forecheck. He was a five tool player. You cant capture his "dominance" in numbers or on lists because he simply never played for that. I'm gonna go to his restaurant during the Canadian GP and ask him about scoring records and I know he'll laugh. Yzerman is not in his class. Yzerman is at the level of a Sittler in leadership and talent. And Perreault was better than both Yzerman and Sittler.

Orr, Guy and Mario are the best of the past 35 years I've watched and Jagr and Hasek are right below.

For me to be a Five Tool Player you've got to skate, stickhandle, shoot, pass, and hit (and be able to take a hit to make a play).
I respect those players who were Five Tool Players: Orr, Mario, Lafleur, Jagr in the past 30 years in the NHL. Maybe Trottier.

Dont get me started on Gretzky. He was on a tier below. Same for Bossy or Dionne.
 
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ClassicHockey

Registered User
May 22, 2005
595
6
I'm with 'God Bless Canada' on his thoughts on Dave Keon.

I'd have to look at who the other 113 players are who are rated ahead of Dave Keon but I'd have to think you have underestimated Dave Keon.

I watched Keon play every saturday and wednesday night in the 60's and all of the playoffs. And, I've had to rewatch most of those games on video and make comments on them. And, I have to tell you that Dave Keon rarely played a bad game.

Here is a player that you could throw out the stats as a means to rate a player.

Keon, not only scored clutch goals but he effectively stopped opposing centres like Henri Richard, Norm Ullman, Stan Mikita and others. He nullified those star players, especially in the playoffs. I've had players from those great Leaf teams of the 60's tell me that, Keon, more than any other player, made possible those Cup wins. And the players know.
Opponents will tell you how talented and crucial Keon was to the success of the Leafs. The opponents know.

And the coaches know too.

I was on a panel once to select the top 75 Toronto Maple Leaf players and everyone had Keon in the Top 3 and I had him #1. And that is saying something when you rate him above Teeder Kennedy and Syl Apps.

Sometime when rating players, stats don't tell the whole story.

How there can be 113 players rated ahead of Dave Keon when Keon could be rated the top Toronto player ever, is puzzling to me.

Can this list be posted again?

By the way, it was SIHR and not the HHOF that provided the list of Conn Smythe Winners, if there was such a trophy in those days.

Ogopogo said:
Davey Keon is #114 on my list. He had a very impressive career.

Although, based on my research, Johnny Bower would have been the 1963 Smythe Winner. That is the opinion of the HHOF and the Society for International Hockey Research.
 

Ogopogo*

Guest
ClassicHockey said:
I'm with 'God Bless Canada' on his thoughts on Dave Keon.

I'd have to look at who the other 113 players are who are rated ahead of Dave Keon but I'd have to think you have underestimated Dave Keon.

I watched Keon play every saturday and wednesday night in the 60's and all of the playoffs. And, I've had to rewatch most of those games on video and make comments on them. And, I have to tell you that Dave Keon rarely played a bad game.

Here is a player that you could throw out the stats as a means to rate a player.

Keon, not only scored clutch goals but he effectively stopped opposing centres like Henri Richard, Norm Ullman, Stan Mikita and others. He nullified those star players, especially in the playoffs. I've had players from those great Leaf teams of the 60's tell me that, Keon, more than any other player, made possible those Cup wins. And the players know.
Opponents will tell you how talented and crucial Keon was to the success of the Leafs. The opponents know.

And the coaches know too.

I was on a panel once to select the top 75 Toronto Maple Leaf players and everyone had Keon in the Top 3 and I had him #1. And that is saying something when you rate him above Teeder Kennedy and Syl Apps.

Sometime when rating players, stats don't tell the whole story.

How there can be 113 players rated ahead of Dave Keon when Keon could be rated the top Toronto player ever, is puzzling to me.

Can this list be posted again?

By the way, it was SIHR and not the HHOF that provided the list of Conn Smythe Winners, if there was such a trophy in those days.


Perhaps watching Keon twice a week has caused you to overrate him slightly?

1 Wayne Gretzky
2 Gordie Howe
3 Bobby Orr
4 Mario Lemieux
5 Jean Beliveau
6 Eddie Shore*
7 Bobby Hull
8 Ray Bourque
9 Maurice "Rocket" Richard
10 Phil Esposito
11 Stan Mikita
12 Guy Lafleur
13 Doug Harvey
14 Jaromir Jagr
15 Howie Morenz*
16 Leonard "Red" Kelly*
17 Francis "King" Clancy*
18 Bill Cowley
19 Paul Coffey
20 Ted Kennedy
21 Bryan Trottier
22 Earl Seibert*
23 Andy Bathgate
24 Syl Apps, Sr.
25 Cecil " Babe" Dye*
26 Bobby Clarke
27 Elmer Lach
28 Cy Denneny*
29 Marcel Dionne
30 Milt Schmidt
31 Mike Bossy
32 Nels Stewart*
33 Denis Potvin
34 Mark Messier
35 Larry Robinson
36 Lionel Conacher*
37 Joe Sakic
38 Pierre Pilote
39 Frank Boucher*
40 Charlie Conacher
41 Nicklas Lidstrom
42 Max Bentley
43 Steve Yzerman
44 Brad Park
45 Harry Cameron*
46 Bernie Geoffrion
47 Doug Bentley
48 Al MacInnis
49 Ted Lindsay
50 Brett Hull
51 Aurel Joliat*
52 Bill Cook*
53 Rod Langway
54 Edouard "Newsy" Lalonde*
Aubrey "Dit" Clapper*
56 Scott Stevens
57 Chris Chelios
58 Sprague Cleghorn*
59 Ebbie Goodfellow*
60 Teemu Selanne
61 Sid Abel
62 Jack Stewart*
63 Bill Gadsby
64 Hector "Toe" Blake
65 Brian Leetch
66 Frank Nighbor*
67 Borje Salming
68 Marty Barry
69 Gord Drillon
70 Adam Oates
71 Harry "Punch" Broadbent*
72 Frank Mahovlich
73 Henri Richard
74 Mark Howe
75 Chris Pronger
76 Peter Forsberg
77 Norm Ullman
78 Doug Gilmour
79 Markus Naslund
80 Tim Horton
81 Serge Savard
82 David "Sweeney" Schriner
83 Joe Malone*
84 Jarome Iginla
85 Dale Hawerchuk
86 Syd Howe
87 Eric Lindros
88 Roy Conacher
89 Jack Darragh*
90 Reg Noble*
91 Peter Stastny
92 Dickie Moore
93 Denis Savard
94 Reg "Hooley" Smith
95 Ivan "Ching" Johnson*
96 Jacques Laperriere
97 Pavel Bure
98 Sylvio Mantha*
George Boucher*
100 Bill Quackenbush*
101 Guy Lapointe
102 Art Coulter
103 Ken Reardon*
104 Cecil Dillon
105 Jean Ratelle
106 Sergei Fedorov
107 Clarence "Hap" Day*
108 Bryan Hextall, Sr.
109 Emile "Butch" Bouchard*
110 Ace Bailey*
111 Bert Olmstead
112 Phil Watson
113 Walter "Babe" Pratt*
114 Dave Keon
115 Marcel Pronovost
116 Buddy O'Connor
117 Yvan Cournoyer
118 JC Tremblay
119 Rob Blake
120 Paul Thompson
121 Gaye Stewart
122 Pat Lafontaine
123 Paul Kariya
124 Tom Anderson
125 Larry Murphy
126 Odie Cleghorn*
127 Ron Francis
128 Martin St. Louis
129 Alex Delvecchio
130 Ralph "Cooney" Weiland*
131 Doug Wilson
132 Fern Flaman
133 Harvey "Busher" Jackson
Ken Randall*
135 Billy Burch*
136 Lynn Patrick
137 Gilbert Perreault
138 Jari Kurri
139 Albert "Babe" Seibert*
140 Eddie Gerard*
141 Lawrence "Baldy" Northcott
142 William "Flash" Hollett*
143 Joe Nieuwendyk
144 Red Berenson
145 Tod Sloan
146 Reggie Leach
147 Tom Johnson
148 Paul Ronty
149 Bob Gainey
Johnny Gagnon
151 Joe Primeau
152 Carl Brewer
153 Brad Richards
Billy Boucher*
Marcel Bonin
Butch Goring
Claude Lemieux
Bob Pulford
159 Neil Colville
160 John LeClair
161 Theoren Fleury
162 Alf Skinner*
163 Ed Litzenberger
164 Bill Thoms
165 Darryl Sittler
166 Corb Denneny*
167 Frank Frederickson*
168 Harry Howell
169 Bert Corbeau*
170 Clint Smith
171 Alexei Yashin
172 Lorne Carr
173 Lionel Hitchman
174 Dick Irvin*
175 Peter Bondra
176 Earl Robinson
177 Bill White
178 Ken Hodge
179 Pat Stapleton
180 Phil Housley
181 George "Goldie" Prodgers*
182 Ed Sandford
183 Mark Recchi
184 George Hay*
185 Allan Stanley
186 Herb Cain
187 Jack Crawford
188 Joe Thornton
189 Bobby Rousseau
190 Sergei Gonchar
191 Michel Goulet
192 Bert McCaffrey*
193 Art Chapman
194 Jim Thomson
195 Billy Taylor
196 Scott Niedermayer
197 Todd Bertuzzi
Vic Hadfield
199 Johnny Gottselig
200 Herb Gardiner
 
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Murphy

Registered User
Apr 2, 2005
2,104
1
Edmonton
I still can't get over Perreault not being on your list, behind guys like Salming..? And I loved Salming.

I know you have good data on these guys and I'm not trying to start a debate as I'll get killed but still....?

I rely to much on what I've seen and can't overcome that with what I've read when I form opinions on these guys, other than the greats.
 

pappyline

Registered User
Jul 3, 2005
4,587
182
Mass/formerly Ont
Ogopogo said:
Perhaps watching Keon twice a week has caused you to overrate him slightly?

1 Wayne Gretzky
2 Gordie Howe
3 Bobby Orr
4 Mario Lemieux
5 Jean Beliveau
6 Eddie Shore*
7 Bobby Hull
8 Ray Bourque
9 Maurice "Rocket" Richard
10 Phil Esposito
11 Stan Mikita
12 Guy Lafleur
13 Doug Harvey
14 Jaromir Jagr
15 Howie Morenz*
16 Leonard "Red" Kelly*
17 Francis "King" Clancy*
18 Bill Cowley
19 Paul Coffey
20 Ted Kennedy
21 Bryan Trottier
22 Earl Seibert*
23 Andy Bathgate
24 Syl Apps, Sr.
25 Cecil " Babe" Dye*
26 Bobby Clarke
27 Elmer Lach
28 Cy Denneny*
29 Marcel Dionne
30 Milt Schmidt
31 Mike Bossy
32 Nels Stewart*
33 Denis Potvin
34 Mark Messier
35 Larry Robinson
36 Lionel Conacher*
37 Joe Sakic
38 Pierre Pilote
39 Frank Boucher*
40 Charlie Conacher
41 Nicklas Lidstrom
42 Max Bentley
43 Steve Yzerman
44 Brad Park
45 Harry Cameron*
46 Bernie Geoffrion
47 Doug Bentley
48 Al MacInnis
49 Ted Lindsay
50 Brett Hull
51 Aurel Joliat*
52 Bill Cook*
53 Rod Langway
54 Edouard "Newsy" Lalonde*
Aubrey "Dit" Clapper*
56 Scott Stevens
57 Chris Chelios
58 Sprague Cleghorn*
59 Ebbie Goodfellow*
60 Teemu Selanne
61 Sid Abel
62 Jack Stewart*
63 Bill Gadsby
64 Hector "Toe" Blake
65 Brian Leetch
66 Frank Nighbor*
67 Borje Salming
68 Marty Barry
69 Gord Drillon
70 Adam Oates
71 Harry "Punch" Broadbent*
72 Frank Mahovlich
73 Henri Richard
74 Mark Howe
75 Chris Pronger
76 Peter Forsberg
77 Norm Ullman
78 Doug Gilmour
79 Markus Naslund
80 Tim Horton
81 Serge Savard
82 David "Sweeney" Schriner
83 Joe Malone*
84 Jarome Iginla
85 Dale Hawerchuk
86 Syd Howe
87 Eric Lindros
88 Roy Conacher
89 Jack Darragh*
90 Reg Noble*
91 Peter Stastny
92 Dickie Moore
93 Denis Savard
94 Reg "Hooley" Smith
95 Ivan "Ching" Johnson*
96 Jacques Laperriere
97 Pavel Bure
98 Sylvio Mantha*
George Boucher*
100 Bill Quackenbush*
101 Guy Lapointe
102 Art Coulter
103 Ken Reardon*
104 Cecil Dillon
105 Jean Ratelle
106 Sergei Fedorov
107 Clarence "Hap" Day*
108 Bryan Hextall, Sr.
109 Emile "Butch" Bouchard*
110 Ace Bailey*
111 Bert Olmstead
112 Phil Watson
113 Walter "Babe" Pratt*
114 Dave Keon
115 Marcel Pronovost
116 Buddy O'Connor
117 Yvan Cournoyer
118 JC Tremblay
119 Rob Blake
120 Paul Thompson
121 Gaye Stewart
122 Pat Lafontaine
123 Paul Kariya
124 Tom Anderson
125 Larry Murphy
126 Odie Cleghorn*
127 Ron Francis
128 Martin St. Louis
129 Alex Delvecchio
130 Ralph "Cooney" Weiland*
131 Doug Wilson
132 Fern Flaman
133 Harvey "Busher" Jackson
Ken Randall*
135 Billy Burch*
136 Lynn Patrick
137 Gilbert Perreault
138 Jari Kurri
139 Albert "Babe" Seibert*
140 Eddie Gerard*
141 Lawrence "Baldy" Northcott
142 William "Flash" Hollett*
143 Joe Nieuwendyk
144 Red Berenson
145 Tod Sloan
146 Reggie Leach
147 Tom Johnson
148 Paul Ronty
149 Bob Gainey
Johnny Gagnon
151 Joe Primeau
152 Carl Brewer
153 Brad Richards
Billy Boucher*
Marcel Bonin
Butch Goring
Claude Lemieux
Bob Pulford
159 Neil Colville
160 John LeClair
161 Theoren Fleury
162 Alf Skinner*
163 Ed Litzenberger
164 Bill Thoms
165 Darryl Sittler
166 Corb Denneny*
167 Frank Frederickson*
168 Harry Howell
169 Bert Corbeau*
170 Clint Smith
171 Alexei Yashin
172 Lorne Carr
173 Lionel Hitchman
174 Dick Irvin*
175 Peter Bondra
176 Earl Robinson
177 Bill White
178 Ken Hodge
179 Pat Stapleton
180 Phil Housley
181 George "Goldie" Prodgers*
182 Ed Sandford
183 Mark Recchi
184 George Hay*
185 Allan Stanley
186 Herb Cain
187 Jack Crawford
188 Joe Thornton
189 Bobby Rousseau
190 Sergei Gonchar
191 Michel Goulet
192 Bert McCaffrey*
193 Art Chapman
194 Jim Thomson
195 Billy Taylor
196 Scott Niedermayer
197 Todd Bertuzzi
Vic Hadfield
199 Johnny Gottselig
200 Herb Gardiner
Good point. Like Dave Keon & he certainly came up big in the playoffs (feel my pain as I was a Hawk fan in those days) Definitely Leaf & Canadien players tend to be over-rated in those days probably because we sawo much of them. If Keon had played for New york, Boston, or Chicago, I doubt that he would have been thought of so highly.
 

Ogopogo*

Guest
Murphy2 said:
I still can't get over Perreault not being on your list, behind guys like Salming..? And I loved Salming.

I know you have good data on these guys and I'm not trying to start a debate as I'll get killed but still....?

I rely to much on what I've seen and can't overcome that with what I've read when I form opinions on these guys, other than the greats.

I respect your opinions but yes, I have done a ton of research and have a lot of data on each of these players so, I am pretty comfortable with my ratings. If you are going by what you have seen and read that is cool. It will almost surely come out differently from the data I have mined.

BTW, I filled out the top 200 and you will notice Perreault at #137. Based on my research, I believe that most people overrate him somewhat. He was a great player just not quite as great as many people believe, IMO.
 

Murphy

Registered User
Apr 2, 2005
2,104
1
Edmonton
You made a little mistake there Ogopogo, I think you meant to have Kurri at 38th not 138th right?
 

Ogopogo*

Guest
Murphy2 said:
You made a little mistake there Ogopogo, I think you meant to have Kurri at 38th not 138th right?

LOL. I wish that were true. Honestly, I was shocked when he ended up where he did. But, I can't let my bias color my ratings. The players end up where they end up based on my compilation of the data.
 

ClassicHockey

Registered User
May 22, 2005
595
6
No, that's a very misguided and unfair comment. Remember that each team in the original 6 played each other 14 times and then in the playoffs so I saw huge amounts of play of all the other stars in the NHL. I'm also sensible enough to not use bias in my analysis.

I want to be kind here because you obviously have a formula but give me a break - there is no way that a number of the players above Keon deserve to be ahead of him. Not even close. After your top 10, you really have problems with the players you have ranked. I think you base you rankings on statistics and not seeing them play? - of course that's an obvious thing. You also don't take into accounts analysis of teammates and opponents?

Besides, in my opinion you can't rank players from the 20's against players from the modern times.

Keon 113th? Well, you might want to research him a little more - and not use just stats. I don't think you will find many historians or students of the game that would devalue a player like Keon as much as you do. I shake my head at some of the players you have above him.


Ogopogo said:
Perhaps watching Keon twice a week has caused you to overrate him slightly?

1 Wayne Gretzky
2 Gordie Howe
3 Bobby Orr
4 Mario Lemieux
5 Jean Beliveau
6 Eddie Shore*
7 Bobby Hull
8 Ray Bourque
9 Maurice "Rocket" Richard
10 Phil Esposito
11 Stan Mikita
12 Guy Lafleur
13 Doug Harvey
14 Jaromir Jagr
15 Howie Morenz*
16 Leonard "Red" Kelly*
17 Francis "King" Clancy*
18 Bill Cowley
19 Paul Coffey
20 Ted Kennedy
21 Bryan Trottier
22 Earl Seibert*
23 Andy Bathgate
24 Syl Apps, Sr.
25 Cecil " Babe" Dye*
26 Bobby Clarke
27 Elmer Lach
28 Cy Denneny*
29 Marcel Dionne
30 Milt Schmidt
31 Mike Bossy
32 Nels Stewart*
33 Denis Potvin
34 Mark Messier
35 Larry Robinson
36 Lionel Conacher*
37 Joe Sakic
38 Pierre Pilote
39 Frank Boucher*
40 Charlie Conacher
41 Nicklas Lidstrom
42 Max Bentley
43 Steve Yzerman
44 Brad Park
45 Harry Cameron*
46 Bernie Geoffrion
47 Doug Bentley
48 Al MacInnis
49 Ted Lindsay
50 Brett Hull
51 Aurel Joliat*
52 Bill Cook*
53 Rod Langway
54 Edouard "Newsy" Lalonde*
Aubrey "Dit" Clapper*
56 Scott Stevens
57 Chris Chelios
58 Sprague Cleghorn*
59 Ebbie Goodfellow*
60 Teemu Selanne
61 Sid Abel
62 Jack Stewart*
63 Bill Gadsby
64 Hector "Toe" Blake
65 Brian Leetch
66 Frank Nighbor*
67 Borje Salming
68 Marty Barry
69 Gord Drillon
70 Adam Oates
71 Harry "Punch" Broadbent*
72 Frank Mahovlich
73 Henri Richard
74 Mark Howe
75 Chris Pronger
76 Peter Forsberg
77 Norm Ullman
78 Doug Gilmour
79 Markus Naslund
80 Tim Horton
81 Serge Savard
82 David "Sweeney" Schriner
83 Joe Malone*
84 Jarome Iginla
85 Dale Hawerchuk
86 Syd Howe
87 Eric Lindros
88 Roy Conacher
89 Jack Darragh*
90 Reg Noble*
91 Peter Stastny
92 Dickie Moore
93 Denis Savard
94 Reg "Hooley" Smith
95 Ivan "Ching" Johnson*
96 Jacques Laperriere
97 Pavel Bure
98 Sylvio Mantha*
George Boucher*
100 Bill Quackenbush*
101 Guy Lapointe
102 Art Coulter
103 Ken Reardon*
104 Cecil Dillon
105 Jean Ratelle
106 Sergei Fedorov
107 Clarence "Hap" Day*
108 Bryan Hextall, Sr.
109 Emile "Butch" Bouchard*
110 Ace Bailey*
111 Bert Olmstead
112 Phil Watson
113 Walter "Babe" Pratt*
114 Dave Keon
115 Marcel Pronovost
116 Buddy O'Connor
117 Yvan Cournoyer
118 JC Tremblay
119 Rob Blake
120 Paul Thompson
121 Gaye Stewart
122 Pat Lafontaine
123 Paul Kariya
124 Tom Anderson
125 Larry Murphy
126 Odie Cleghorn*
127 Ron Francis
128 Martin St. Louis
129 Alex Delvecchio
130 Ralph "Cooney" Weiland*
131 Doug Wilson
132 Fern Flaman
133 Harvey "Busher" Jackson
Ken Randall*
135 Billy Burch*
136 Lynn Patrick
137 Gilbert Perreault
138 Jari Kurri
139 Albert "Babe" Seibert*
140 Eddie Gerard*
141 Lawrence "Baldy" Northcott
142 William "Flash" Hollett*
143 Joe Nieuwendyk
144 Red Berenson
145 Tod Sloan
146 Reggie Leach
147 Tom Johnson
148 Paul Ronty
149 Bob Gainey
Johnny Gagnon
151 Joe Primeau
152 Carl Brewer
153 Brad Richards
Billy Boucher*
Marcel Bonin
Butch Goring
Claude Lemieux
Bob Pulford
159 Neil Colville
160 John LeClair
161 Theoren Fleury
162 Alf Skinner*
163 Ed Litzenberger
164 Bill Thoms
165 Darryl Sittler
166 Corb Denneny*
167 Frank Frederickson*
168 Harry Howell
169 Bert Corbeau*
170 Clint Smith
171 Alexei Yashin
172 Lorne Carr
173 Lionel Hitchman
174 Dick Irvin*
175 Peter Bondra
176 Earl Robinson
177 Bill White
178 Ken Hodge
179 Pat Stapleton
180 Phil Housley
181 George "Goldie" Prodgers*
182 Ed Sandford
183 Mark Recchi
184 George Hay*
185 Allan Stanley
186 Herb Cain
187 Jack Crawford
188 Joe Thornton
189 Bobby Rousseau
190 Sergei Gonchar
191 Michel Goulet
192 Bert McCaffrey*
193 Art Chapman
194 Jim Thomson
195 Billy Taylor
196 Scott Niedermayer
197 Todd Bertuzzi
Vic Hadfield
199 Johnny Gottselig
200 Herb Gardiner
 

Murphy

Registered User
Apr 2, 2005
2,104
1
Edmonton
It is amazing how some of these guys end up being ranked. Great list though, fascinating actually.

I'd love to see how some of my favourite goalies would get slaughtered, lol.

Are you ever going to put a goalie list together?
 

Ogopogo*

Guest
ClassicHockey said:
No, that's a very misguided and unfair comment. Remember that each team in the original 6 played each other 14 times and then in the playoffs so I saw huge amounts of play of all the other stars in the NHL. I'm also sensible enough to not use bias in my analysis.

I want to be kind here because you obviously have a formula but give me a break - there is no way that a number of the players above Keon deserve to be ahead of him. Not even close. After your top 10, you really have problems with the players you have ranked. I think you base you rankings on statistics and not seeing them play? - of course that's an obvious thing. You also don't take into accounts analysis of teammates and opponents?

Besides, in my opinion you can't rank players from the 20's against players from the modern times.

Keon 113th? Well, you might want to research him a little more - and not use just stats. I don't think you will find many historians or students of the game that would devalue a player like Keon as much as you do. I shake my head at some of the players you have above him.

I respect your opinion but, if you are only basing it on what you have seen there will be holes in your rankings - unless of course, you are 115 years old. I base my ratings on a combination of statistics and eyewitness accounts of players from all eras. I don't have any problems with the players I have ranked, you have problems with them. That is fine, I realize that not everyone will agree but, that was never my concern.

I believe you can rank players from the 20s against modern day players. It requires plenty of research and a well thought out method.
 

Ogopogo*

Guest
Murphy2 said:
It is amazing how some of these guys end up being ranked. Great list though, fascinating actually.

I'd love to see how some of my favourite goalies would get slaughtered, lol.

Are you ever going to put a goalie list together?

Yes. I need some data from the NHL office in NY and getting it has proven to be a difficult task. I will get the information eventually and I will construct my goaltender list.
 

Hockey Outsider

Registered User
Jan 16, 2005
9,056
13,986
Ogopogo said:
Yes. I need some data from the NHL office in NY and getting it has proven to be a difficult task. I will get the information eventually and I will construct my goaltender list.

Out of curiosity, what info are you looking for?
 

Wisent

Registered User
Nov 15, 2003
3,667
2
Mannheim
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God Bless Canada said:
Winning a Cup is not a pre-requisite for admission into the HHOF. Many players have gotten into the Hall without one, and now in a 30-team league, many more will get into the HHOF without one. Being part of a Cup champion helps to cement your legacy, though, or push a borderline candidate over the top, especially if he's the best player, captain, best forward/defenceman/goaltender, or a key player. And that's only right. No better compliment to pay a player than "he was the best player on the best team on the planet."

But there's no excuse for not elevating your play in the post-season. And Sundin hasn't done that. That's the biggest strike on his resume. A player of his calibre should have at least one, preferrably several, marquee playoffs, when people in hockey circles rave about how he elevated his play when it mattered most, and carried his team on his back. And it's a gaping hole on his resume.

A difference between Mats Sundin and Jean Ratelle? Jean Ratelle was once deemed to be the best player in the league by his peers. And that's ahead of Bobby Orr, Phil Esposito and many others.

Being the face of a franchise for a decade doesn't make one iota of a difference, unless that franchise enjoys success during his tenure, and by success, I'm talking the success accompanied by Stanley Cup rings. Yes, the Leafs have a long and storied history, but since Sundin's arrival, they have won three conference final games. I don't think being "the face of the franchise" will help him with the success they've enjoyed.

But Sundin has the international success to show that he can elevate his play under pressure. He was a very important part in the titles Sweden won.
 

Wisent

Registered User
Nov 15, 2003
3,667
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Mannheim
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Ogopogo said:
Perhaps watching Keon twice a week has caused you to overrate him slightly?

1 Wayne Gretzky
2 Gordie Howe
3 Bobby Orr
4 Mario Lemieux
5 Jean Beliveau
6 Eddie Shore*
7 Bobby Hull
8 Ray Bourque
9 Maurice "Rocket" Richard
10 Phil Esposito
11 Stan Mikita
12 Guy Lafleur
13 Doug Harvey
14 Jaromir Jagr
15 Howie Morenz*
16 Leonard "Red" Kelly*
17 Francis "King" Clancy*
18 Bill Cowley
19 Paul Coffey
20 Ted Kennedy
21 Bryan Trottier
22 Earl Seibert*
23 Andy Bathgate
24 Syl Apps, Sr.
25 Cecil " Babe" Dye*
26 Bobby Clarke
27 Elmer Lach
28 Cy Denneny*
29 Marcel Dionne
30 Milt Schmidt
31 Mike Bossy
32 Nels Stewart*
33 Denis Potvin
34 Mark Messier
35 Larry Robinson
36 Lionel Conacher*
37 Joe Sakic
38 Pierre Pilote
39 Frank Boucher*
40 Charlie Conacher
41 Nicklas Lidstrom
42 Max Bentley
43 Steve Yzerman
44 Brad Park
45 Harry Cameron*
46 Bernie Geoffrion
47 Doug Bentley
48 Al MacInnis
49 Ted Lindsay
50 Brett Hull
51 Aurel Joliat*
52 Bill Cook*
53 Rod Langway
54 Edouard "Newsy" Lalonde*
Aubrey "Dit" Clapper*
56 Scott Stevens
57 Chris Chelios
58 Sprague Cleghorn*
59 Ebbie Goodfellow*
60 Teemu Selanne
61 Sid Abel
62 Jack Stewart*
63 Bill Gadsby
64 Hector "Toe" Blake
65 Brian Leetch
66 Frank Nighbor*
67 Borje Salming
68 Marty Barry
69 Gord Drillon
70 Adam Oates
71 Harry "Punch" Broadbent*
72 Frank Mahovlich
73 Henri Richard
74 Mark Howe
75 Chris Pronger
76 Peter Forsberg
77 Norm Ullman
78 Doug Gilmour
79 Markus Naslund
80 Tim Horton
81 Serge Savard
82 David "Sweeney" Schriner
83 Joe Malone*
84 Jarome Iginla
85 Dale Hawerchuk
86 Syd Howe
87 Eric Lindros
88 Roy Conacher
89 Jack Darragh*
90 Reg Noble*
91 Peter Stastny
92 Dickie Moore
93 Denis Savard
94 Reg "Hooley" Smith
95 Ivan "Ching" Johnson*
96 Jacques Laperriere
97 Pavel Bure
98 Sylvio Mantha*
George Boucher*
100 Bill Quackenbush*
101 Guy Lapointe
102 Art Coulter
103 Ken Reardon*
104 Cecil Dillon
105 Jean Ratelle
106 Sergei Fedorov
107 Clarence "Hap" Day*
108 Bryan Hextall, Sr.
109 Emile "Butch" Bouchard*
110 Ace Bailey*
111 Bert Olmstead
112 Phil Watson
113 Walter "Babe" Pratt*
114 Dave Keon
115 Marcel Pronovost
116 Buddy O'Connor
117 Yvan Cournoyer
118 JC Tremblay
119 Rob Blake
120 Paul Thompson
121 Gaye Stewart
122 Pat Lafontaine
123 Paul Kariya
124 Tom Anderson
125 Larry Murphy
126 Odie Cleghorn*
127 Ron Francis
128 Martin St. Louis
129 Alex Delvecchio
130 Ralph "Cooney" Weiland*
131 Doug Wilson
132 Fern Flaman
133 Harvey "Busher" Jackson
Ken Randall*
135 Billy Burch*
136 Lynn Patrick
137 Gilbert Perreault
138 Jari Kurri
139 Albert "Babe" Seibert*
140 Eddie Gerard*
141 Lawrence "Baldy" Northcott
142 William "Flash" Hollett*
143 Joe Nieuwendyk
144 Red Berenson
145 Tod Sloan
146 Reggie Leach
147 Tom Johnson
148 Paul Ronty
149 Bob Gainey
Johnny Gagnon
151 Joe Primeau
152 Carl Brewer
153 Brad Richards
Billy Boucher*
Marcel Bonin
Butch Goring
Claude Lemieux
Bob Pulford
159 Neil Colville
160 John LeClair
161 Theoren Fleury
162 Alf Skinner*
163 Ed Litzenberger
164 Bill Thoms
165 Darryl Sittler
166 Corb Denneny*
167 Frank Frederickson*
168 Harry Howell
169 Bert Corbeau*
170 Clint Smith
171 Alexei Yashin
172 Lorne Carr
173 Lionel Hitchman
174 Dick Irvin*
175 Peter Bondra
176 Earl Robinson
177 Bill White
178 Ken Hodge
179 Pat Stapleton
180 Phil Housley
181 George "Goldie" Prodgers*
182 Ed Sandford
183 Mark Recchi
184 George Hay*
185 Allan Stanley
186 Herb Cain
187 Jack Crawford
188 Joe Thornton
189 Bobby Rousseau
190 Sergei Gonchar
191 Michel Goulet
192 Bert McCaffrey*
193 Art Chapman
194 Jim Thomson
195 Billy Taylor
196 Scott Niedermayer
197 Todd Bertuzzi
Vic Hadfield
199 Johnny Gottselig
200 Herb Gardiner

What is the asterisk denoting?
 

Stephen

Moderator
Feb 28, 2002
77,850
51,520
You have Alexei Yashin, Sergei Gonchar and Brad Richards above Scott Niedermayer. That alone is enough to completely undermine your formula for ranking these players. You're only looking at numbers and you completely ignore more intangible things. I can only imagine how you've managed to skew and overrate 'past greats' just by looking at numbers and ignoring everything else.
 

Ogopogo*

Guest
Hockey Outsider said:
Out of curiosity, what info are you looking for?

The complete voting records for the major awards and all stars. Those results comprise an element of my ratings and I have never seen the complete voting records published anywhere. The head stats guy at NHL New York thus far has been uncooperative. I will continue to bug him until he provides the data to shut me up. ;)

The thread we started on awards voting has been helpful but complete records only exist in one place and one man has access.
 

Ogopogo*

Guest
Wisent said:
What is the asterisk denoting?

I should remove those. That was too remind me of some information that needed completion. It doesn't represent anything significant any longer.
 

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