Future Hall of Famers

jkrx

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Feb 4, 2010
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I love Alfy. And perhaps when a very weak class is nomnated he MIGHT get in, ut I have a hard time imagening a class where he could be a lock.

If Sittler is in then Alfredsson should be there too.
 

tony d

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Jun 23, 2007
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Alfy's an interesting case. Probably the best Ottawa Senator player ever but no Stanley Cup or scoring title and only 1 major award (1996 Calder trophy) could hurt his case. I support him to make the Hall of Fame but I can see why he might not.
 

Hardyvan123

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Jul 4, 2010
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Charlie Gardiner had 7 seasons. Bill Durnan had that many too. Both were considered the best goalie in the game at one time. Thomas has that distinction twice. I think he is the perennial late bloomer in the mold of a Johnny Bower/Gump Worsley to be honest. I think he makes it eventually barring a career collapse. Think about this. Two Vezinas, a final appearance (maybe a Cup) and probably a Conn Smythe. That's a good resume right there. All you'd need to do afterwards is sustain it for a little longer and put up some sexy numbers


Personally a Conn Smythe and 2 Vezinas is enough for me with another couple of good seasons.

I was just making an observation on what the HHOF committee will do (or not in his case).

Loungo is more the type of player the committee tends to favour, a compiler.

For the record Thomas is higher on my list for making the Hall at this point.
 

Canadiens1958

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Nov 30, 2007
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Tim Thomas / Johnny Bower

Parallels between Tim Thomas' career and that of Johnny Bower. Bower had two Vezinas, long and successful minor league career plus a very strong team success portfolio.

http://www.hockey-reference.com/players/b/bowerjo01.html

Both were somewhat unconventional - Bower with his poke check. Bower was a better singer.

Tim Thomas still has a ways to go.
 
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seventieslord

Student Of The Game
Mar 16, 2006
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And if Dick Duff is in, so should a whole bunch of other players.

Haha - true that.

But jkrx didn't give an example of a poor induction - he gave an example of a HHOFer who is rarely, if ever questioned.

Tim Thomas still has a ways to go.

To be on Bower's level? Yeah, no doubt.

To be a HHOFer? He might honestly be two games away.
 

KingGallagherXI

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Jul 10, 2009
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Mats Sundin has 13 x 30-goal seasons. To put that in perspective, Gretzky and Howe have 14 and Joe Sakic has 9. I think he should get in.
 

jkrx

Registered User
Feb 4, 2010
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And if Dick Duff is in, so should a whole bunch of other players.

Dick Duff is an incredibly bad example. I didnt say Sittler was a bad induction, rather the opposite. There is a strong parallel between Alfredsson and Sittler.
 

tarheelhockey

Offside Review Specialist
Feb 12, 2010
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Thomas is becoming perhaps the most interesting case study since Neely of what the NHL considers HOF-worthy.

IMO, he should absolutely be in if he sustains even a decent level of play from here on.
 

JaysCyYoung

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Jan 1, 2009
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York Region
If Boston wins this series Thomas will have:

*2 Vezina Trophies (he's a lock in a couple of weeks)
*2 First All-Star Team selections
*Single-season save percentage record (.938)
*2x league leader in GAA (2009 and 2011)
*2x league leader in save percentage (2009 and 2011)
*William Jennings Trophy (fewest goals allowed - 2009)
*Stanley Cup championship (Boston's first since 1972)
*Conn Smythe Trophy as post-season MVP (first American since Brian Leetch in 1994)

His counting numbers are still fairly marginal because he didn't become an NHL regular until age 32 (similar to Johnny Bower) but his peak totals are incredible.
 

JaysCyYoung

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Jan 1, 2009
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Mats Sundin has 13 x 30-goal seasons. To put that in perspective, Gretzky and Howe have 14 and Joe Sakic has 9. I think he should get in.

Sundin is in the Hall of Fame in my books. I obviously have a pre-disposed bias towards his candidacy as a Leafs fan but his overall resume is comparable to players such as Jean Ratelle, Darryl Sittler, and Bernie Federko: not the best players in the Hall and clearly several tiers down from the elite names (Gretzky, Howe, Orr, Lemieux, etc.) and even from the second-tier guys (Hull, Richard, Dryden, etc.) but certainly enough to warrant induction. His counting totals are bolstered by a couple of elite seasons at his position (2002 and 2004).

In addition to that he has an extremely strong international resume, captaining the Swedish national team on multiple occasions and compiling 20 points in 16 career Olympic games (best on best competition), 44 points in 35 career World Championships games, and 19 points in 14 career Canada Cup/World Cup games. I believe he is tied for first all-time in the number of regular-season overtime goals scored as well.

-7th all-time in game winning goals (96)
-14th all-time in offensive point shares (120.2)
-16th all-time in adjusted goals created (547.9)
-16th all-time in adjusted points (1410)
-18th all-time in adjusted goals (599)
-18th all-time in short-handed goals (31)
-21st all-time in goals (564)
-25th all-time in adjusted assists (811)
-26th all-time in points (1349)
-33rd all-time in assists (785)
-9x NHL All-Star Game selections (not valued on this board but indicative of his consistency)
-2x NHL Second All-Star Team (2002 -- should have been the First All-Star Team centre over Sakic that year -- and 2004)
-Olympic gold medal as Sweden's captain (2006)

Obviously he is hurt by the fact that he never captured a championship with the Leafs but Sundin also benefits from several key "firsts" in his career as well: first European player selected first overall in the NHL draft (and first Swede), first European captain in Toronto Maple Leafs history, and longest-serving captain in Toronto Maple Leafs history (with George Armstrong). His counting totals are very good, especially considering that he played during the heart of the Dead Puck Era, and his consistency was remarkable with the thirteen thirty-plus goal seasons as previously mentioned, and fifteen seventy-plus point seasons (including twelve consecutive), three top ten goal finishes, two top ten point finishes (including second in the league in 2002), and a more than respectable 82 points in 91 career playoff games.
 

Big Phil

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Nov 2, 2003
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Dick Duff is an incredibly bad example. I didnt say Sittler was a bad induction, rather the opposite. There is a strong parallel between Alfredsson and Sittler.

There isn't a LOT that separates those two. However, at his best Sittler (1975-'80) was better than Alfredsson. Sittler's best season was 1977-'78 and Alfie never had a year like that.

However, I like Alfie's surprising longevity and his deceptive consistently high scoring finishes. He will make interesting conversation after his retirement, or even now, considering I don't see him putting anything on his resume from now on that will help him
 

Hardyvan123

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There isn't a LOT that separates those two. However, at his best Sittler (1975-'80) was better than Alfredsson. Sittler's best season was 1977-'78 and Alfie never had a year like that.

However, I like Alfie's surprising longevity and his deceptive consistently high scoring finishes. He will make interesting conversation after his retirement, or even now, considering I don't see him putting anything on his resume from now on that will help him


Alfie's peak of 00-08 is not only longer but just as good as Sittler's when you look at it the context of the times and nature of the NHL both players played in.

Throw in Alfie's excellent international play and quite a strong playoff resume, leading one year in both goals and points.

Sittler does have the benefit of having 4 excellent years in a row in the playoffs surrounded by some mediocre performances.

Honestly to me it's debatable on who the better overall player was.
 

Big Phil

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Nov 2, 2003
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Alfie's peak of 00-08 is not only longer but just as good as Sittler's when you look at it the context of the times and nature of the NHL both players played in.

Throw in Alfie's excellent international play and quite a strong playoff resume, leading one year in both goals and points.

Sittler does have the benefit of having 4 excellent years in a row in the playoffs surrounded by some mediocre performances.

Honestly to me it's debatable on who the better overall player was.

I'm not sure what you mean there. The nature of the NHL and context of the times? If you mean because there were players in the WHA in the mid to late 1970s then all I have to ask is what player in the WHA from 1975-'79 was as good as Sittler in and therefore would have unseated him?

Also you can't argue with their scoring finishes:
Sittler - 3, 8, 8, 9, 9
Alfredsson - 4, 7, 9

It's fairly close, but I think Sittler was a little more revered in his time than Alfredsson in his era.
 
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andreydali19

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Jun 19, 2006
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Debate: After the Cicarrelli debacle (that only he got in, not that HE got in), should the inductee slots go up to 5 a few years? Or more? Or stay the same?
 

Hardyvan123

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I'm not sure what you mean there. The nature of the NHL and context of the times? If you mean because there were players in the WHA in the mid to late 1970s then all I have to ask is what player in the WHA from 1975-'79 was as good as Sittler in and therefore would have unseated him?

Also you can't argue with their scoring finishes:
Sittler - 3, 8, 8, 9, 9
Alfredsson - 4, 7, 7, 9

It's fairly close, but I think Sittler was a little more revered in his time than Alfredsson in his era.


I was leaning more on the overall quality of play, not direct competition that nay WHA players were better than Sittler, although an argument could be made that a couple of guys were extremely talented, like Buddy Cloutier and even Bobby Hull.

Also, although centers are generally more defensively responsible than wingers from what I remember of Sittler is that he, and his entire team, were not all that great in the defensive aspect of the game compared to Alfie (partly a product of the change in the style of play admittedly).

In a nutshell Aflie's offensive production and the length of it combined with his 2 way play outweighs any slight peak that Sittler had on the offensive side of the ledger IMO.

throw in Alfie's international play (although I'll be the 1st to agree that I'm pretty sure the HHOF committee doesn't give this much merit) and there is a strong argument that Alfie had the better overall career and was the better player.
 

Big Phil

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I was leaning more on the overall quality of play, not direct competition that nay WHA players were better than Sittler, although an argument could be made that a couple of guys were extremely talented, like Buddy Cloutier and even Bobby Hull.

Also, although centers are generally more defensively responsible than wingers from what I remember of Sittler is that he, and his entire team, were not all that great in the defensive aspect of the game compared to Alfie (partly a product of the change in the style of play admittedly).

In a nutshell Aflie's offensive production and the length of it combined with his 2 way play outweighs any slight peak that Sittler had on the offensive side of the ledger IMO.

throw in Alfie's international play (although I'll be the 1st to agree that I'm pretty sure the HHOF committee doesn't give this much merit) and there is a strong argument that Alfie had the better overall career and was the better player.

As the game grows and we learn more it is natural to increase the quality of play of the game. This is why you can't penalize Sittler, or any other player, for staring 25-30 years earlier than another player because they can't control the era they played in, but rather how they performed against their peers. Meaning that this is all you can judge a player on and we can only assume had Sittler had the advantages of today's athlete that he would be just as revered today.

You should start an Alfredsson vs. Sittler thread on here. It might make some interesting conversation. No longer is this a laughable comparison anymore as time has gone by. We have a Hall of Famer (deserving one, but on the back nine of the crop) vs. a potential HHOFer whose resume is getting harder to ignore.
 

Canadiens1958

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Roger Neilson

I was leaning more on the overall quality of play, not direct competition that nay WHA players were better than Sittler, although an argument could be made that a couple of guys were extremely talented, like Buddy Cloutier and even Bobby Hull.

Also, although centers are generally more defensively responsible than wingers from what I remember of Sittler is that he, and his entire team, were not all that great in the defensive aspect of the game compared to Alfie (partly a product of the change in the style of play admittedly).

In a nutshell Aflie's offensive production and the length of it combined with his 2 way play outweighs any slight peak that Sittler had on the offensive side of the ledger IMO.

throw in Alfie's international play (although I'll be the 1st to agree that I'm pretty sure the HHOF committee doesn't give this much merit) and there is a strong argument that Alfie had the better overall career and was the better player.

Roger Neilson would beg to differ. Sittler had his best offensive season and most of his quality offensive moments while playing on teams that shutdown Marcel Dionne and the LA kings and the Trottier/Bossy/Potvin Islanders in a playoff offense.Darryl Sittler could play defense as evidenced in the 1976 Canada Cup as well.
 

Hardyvan123

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As the game grows and we learn more it is natural to increase the quality of play of the game. This is why you can't penalize Sittler, or any other player, for staring 25-30 years earlier than another player because they can't control the era they played in, but rather how they performed against their peers. Meaning that this is all you can judge a player on and we can only assume had Sittler had the advantages of today's athlete that he would be just as revered today.

You should start an Alfredsson vs. Sittler thread on here. It might make some interesting conversation. No longer is this a laughable comparison anymore as time has gone by. We have a Hall of Famer (deserving one, but on the back nine of the crop) vs. a potential HHOFer whose resume is getting harder to ignore.

I understand what you are saying about penalizing a guy for the era he played in but we have to take it into some kind of context and more than just against his peers because quality of opposition matters in these questions IMO. But there will be other threads to elaborate on that point.
 

Big Phil

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I understand what you are saying about penalizing a guy for the era he played in but we have to take it into some kind of context and more than just against his peers because quality of opposition matters in these questions IMO. But there will be other threads to elaborate on that point.

It does matter, which is why 1943-'45 is respected but it has a little bit of an asterisk because of the War and the fact that the Bentley's and the Kraut Line and Syl Apps and Turk Broda to name a few were off fighting. However, to a certain degree the NHL is the NHL.

But I do agree that you need to look at the eras and the competition. Here are each man's competition the years they finished 10th in scoring.

Sittler
1973-'74 - Esposito, Orr, Hodge, Cashman, Clarke, Martin, Apps Jr., Sittler, Hextall, Park
1975-'76 - Lafleur, Clarke, Perreault, Barber, Larouche, Ratelle, P. Mahovlich, Pronovost, Sittler, Apps Jr.
1976-'77 - Lafleur, Dionne, Shutt, MacLeish, Young, Perreault, Ratelle, McDonald, Sittler, Clarke
1977-'78 - Lafleur, Trottier, Sittler, Lemaire, Potvin, Bossy, O'Reilly, Perreault, Clarke, McDonald
1979-'80 - Dionne, Gretzky, Lafleur, Perreault, Rogers, Trottier, Simmer, Stoughton, Sittler, MacDonald

Alfredsson
2003-'04 - St. Louis, Sakic, Kovalchuk, Naslund, Hossa, Elias, Alfredsson, Stillman, Lang, Richards
2005-'06 - Thornton, Jagr, Ovechkin, Heatley, Alfredsson, Crosby, Staal, Kovalchuk, Savard, Cheechoo
2007-'08 - Ovechkin, Malkin, Iginla, Datsyuk, Thornton, Spezza, Zetterberg, Lecavalier, Alfredsson, Kovalchuk

Both lists have pretty tight competition at the top end.

With Sittler, he had 35/50 of his peers in those top 10 lists in the HHOF. (I included Sittler himself and counted the same player multiple times, same way for Alfredsson)

With Alfredsson there are 20/30 players who we project could be in the HHOF and I included some controversial ones like Kovalchuk and Lecavalier.

So that's 70% of Sittler's competition at the top were HHOFers while at best 66% of Alfredsson's peers are projected to be in the HHOF. That is barely any difference, and it just goes to show you that their eras are not that different and it wasn't much, if at all, easier for Sittler to stand out.
 

RECsGuy*

Guest
Tim Thomas has had (2) amazing seasons and (1) good season. That's it. And he's over 37 years old. Logic would dictate that his career will only go down from here, but then again "logic" kept him from making his NHL debut for 8 years following his draft. I believe that what will soon be, at the very least, (2) Vezinas and (1) Conn Smythe will be enough to get Tim into the HHOF.

He is without a doubt the most fascinating HHOF candidate in history.
 

begbeee

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Oct 16, 2009
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The question is: when we based the induction on a peak or prime (i.e. Thomas, Neely), why players with similar peak or prime (i.e. Lindros, Bure) are not in?

Based on peak Kariya should go in, doesnt he? His peak is comparable to other names mentioned above and his longetivity is even better...
 

Hab-a-maniac

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Mats Sundin has 13 x 30-goal seasons. To put that in perspective, Gretzky and Howe have 14 and Joe Sakic has 9. I think he should get in.

To put it into perspective again, Gretzky had 12 forty goal seasons, Sakic 5, Sundin 3. There's your HOF hierarchy right there. Mats should get in but if it wasn't for his international career he'd be relying on stat compiling alone. He was at one point a top 5 centreman in the NHL (96-02) but never top 3 for a sustained time IMO. But I would compare his career favourably to other HOF'ers who were remarkably consistent without winning much team wise. Jean Ratelle made it to 3 finals so he might have an edge on Sundin (3 finals then=1 now but thats still better than what Mats got to do) so I compare him to Sittler, Federko and Perreault.
 
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