Fun facts: Takeaway and Giveawy Stats - Defense

[BigWilly]

Does that invalidate the stat, or simply suggest we're a tighter road team than a home team?

It does the bolded, the discrepancy is ridiculous.

edit: Hurt provided the stats

 

[Penalty Kill Icing*]

Correlation is not a cause. My point is that we may very well be a better road team than a home one. It's definitely been the case in previous seasons.

Your point gets thrown out because we were marginally better by 1 point on road than home.

 

[Morguee]

Just for fun what is the takeaway ratio home vs away?

 

[Hurt]

Correlation is not a cause. My point is that we may very well be a better road team than a home one. It's definitely been the case in previous seasons.

To the point of giving the puck away 10+ more times every game over 24 games? While maintaining a similar win-loss between home and away?

Unless you personally know or have investigated the Giveaway counter person at the ACC to prove that his giveaway numbers are incorrect, I'm relying on the stats.

Like someone said, it's possible that the ACC guy is right and everyone else is wrong. But the odds would probably favour the opposite side in this.

 

[dubplatepressure]

Your point gets thrown out because we were marginally better by 1 point on road than home.

Respectfully, that does not throw my point away.

 

[Hurt]

Just for fun what is the takeaway ratio home vs away?

Home takeaways: 197
Away takeaways: 132

Not as extreme but yet again, quite a huge disparity.

 

[Pi]

Correlation is not a cause. My point is that we may very well be a better road team than a home one. It's definitely been the case in previous seasons.

Sure we can be a better road team but the difference isn't 200 more giveaways at home.

ACC numbers guy isn't great...or doesn't know what a giveaway is.

Wonder if these guys work for the NHL or the Leafs?

You would think the NHL would hire competent people to count these stats...giveaways, hits, blocked shots, takeaways vary so much from building to building...they are almost pointless to rank.

 

[Morguee]

Home takeaways: 197
Away takeaways: 132

Not as extreme but yet again, quite a huge disparity.

Thank you for that. It would appear the stat guy at the ACC does tend to skew the numbers up IMO.

 

[dubplatepressure]

Sure we can be a better road team but the difference isn't 200 more giveaways at home.

ACC numbers guy isn't great...or doesn't know what a giveaway is.

Wonder if these guys work for the NHL or the Leafs?

You would think the NHL would hire competent people to count these stats...giveaways, hits, blocked shots, takeaways vary so much from building to building...they are almost pointless to rank.

Based on the stats, he may evaluate slightly higher.

Conversely (and hilariously) the away stat guy may just be paying more attention to the home team. But we don't want to think of that, either, just like we don't seem to want to accept that we're wretchedly horrible at giving the puck away this year.

 

[BigWilly]

Based on the stats, he may evaluate slightly higher.

Conversely (and hilariously) the away stat guy may just be paying more attention to the home team. But we don't want to think of that, either, just like we don't seem to want to accept that we're wretchedly horrible at giving the puck away this year.

Following that logic, there would be a large difference between takeaways/giveaways from home games to away games for the other teams in the NHL as well. Which I do not believe is the case.

 

[Pi]

Based on the stats, he may evaluate slightly higher.

Conversely (and hilariously) the away stat guy may just be paying more attention to the home team. But we don't want to think of that, either, just like we don't seem to want to accept that we're wretchedly horrible at giving the puck away this year.

Agreed on that point.

Disagree on the first point.

There are 29 different buildings that calculate the Leafs giveaway number, only 1 home team.

I think I'll side with 29 different stat guys over the Leafs stat guy who is padding all these stats massively.

 

[Penalty Kill Icing*]

Based on the stats, he may evaluate slightly higher.

Conversely (and hilariously) the away stat guy may just be paying more attention to the home team. But we don't want to think of that, either, just like we don't seem to want to accept that we're wretchedly horrible at giving the puck away this year.

I hope you understand that you are accusing stats guy of all other 29 arenas of "paying more attention to the home team".

I call Leafs as Toronto Turnovers. We are probably top 10 in giveaways. And stats guy at ACC doesn't evaluate it slightly higher, but significantly higher. Doesn't help that Leafs have played 1 more game at home than away.

Our D isn't THAT bad that we would have 5 of 6 Dmen top 10 in giveaway. Any other stats guy and I guarantee the stats change significantly. (odds in my favor 29/1)

 

[dubplatepressure]

I hope you understand that you are accusing stats guy of all other 29 arenas of "paying more attention to the home team".

I call Leafs as Toronto Turnovers. We are probably top 10 in giveaways. And stats guy at ACC doesn't evaluate it slightly higher, but significantly higher. Doesn't help that Leafs have played 1 more game at home than away.

Our D isn't THAT bad that we would have 5 of 6 Dmen top 10 in giveaway. Any other stats guy and I guarantee the stats change significantly. (odds in my favor 29/1)

I'm accusing no one of anything, friend. I'm simply calling out out atrocious our blue line has been this year. We give the puck away. Lots.

I'll concede it looks as if the ACC stats guy is very liberal with the application, but we're still coughing that biscuit up way, way too much.

 

[TheLeastOfTheBunch]

Correlation is not a cause. My point is that we may very well be a better road team than a home one. It's definitely been the case in previous seasons.

Good point, the Leafs did do a bit better on the road..

But there seems a little bit of a divergence between stat recorders in different arenas. For example, today, according to the stat sheets, the Leafs gave away the puck once.

 

[HarrisonFord]

Correlation is not a cause. My point is that we may very well be a better road team than a home one. It's definitely been the case in previous seasons.

Visitor giveaways this season and last:
9
10
14
9
18

13
10
12
11
13
17
11
8
9
15
9
17
15
19
10
8
16
14
5
15
1
8
13
10

for

 

[Morguee]

I'm accusing no one of anything, friend. I'm simply calling out out atrocious our blue line has been this year. We give the puck away. Lots.

I'll concede it looks as if the ACC stats guy is very liberal with the application, but we're still coughing that biscuit up way, way too much.

I think eveyone will agree with that. Maybe a better measure of where the Leafs stand is to throw out all home game stats and just use away games for all the teams. ie Toronto away stats vs Detroit away stats vs Ottawa away stats etc. There will still be arena variation but it may be a better way to measure eliminating home team bias.

 

[Penalty Kill Icing*]

I'm accusing no one of anything, friend. I'm simply calling out out atrocious our blue line has been this year. We give the puck away. Lots.

I'll concede it looks as if the ACC stats guy is very liberal with the application, but we're still coughing that biscuit up way, way too much.

100% agree with you there. Our defensive play is suspect. Just that I personally won't use the giveaways stats data to backup the argument.

And I still think it is our system, not personnel (from our discussion in other thread). I see Carlyle hockey, and I see Ron Wilson hockey.

Aside from special teams, I don't see any major difference. Don't forget that even Wilson's team had a good record under healthy Reimer. We have tried many D-men under Carlyle. How come all of current 6 + Liles + Kostka + Holzer + Komisarek struggle playing defense? Are they really that bad? All at the same time? It is more likely that the system is broken that all D-men being that bad.

 

[HarrisonFord]

Visitor giveaways this season and last:
9
10
14
9
18

13
10
12
11
13
17
11
8
9
15
9
17
15
19
10
8
16
14
5
15
1
8
13
10

for

blerp. Can't edit so,

for 558 giveaways in a full 48 games if they were 1 team. That would have put them in 1st place ahead of the Leafs in giveaways last year

 

[Pi]

I'm accusing no one of anything, friend. I'm simply calling out out atrocious our blue line has been this year. We give the puck away. Lots.

I'll concede it looks as if the ACC stats guy is very liberal with the application, but we're still coughing that biscuit up way, way too much.

It's not the defenseman.

It's the inability of our forwards to be in position in our zone.

Kessel will never take a hit to make a play along the boards...he sees someone coming he'll let go of the puck regardless if it's a turnover that results in a 2 on 1, breakaway etc.

JvR is good along the boards but his play depends on his mood.

Lupul is good in the corners and board ONLY in the offensive zone.

Raymond is soft too.

That's a problem. The defense has nobody open to pass the puck to, to get out of the zone like all the good transition teams do..

We need a miracle, icing or a good play once every 5 tries to get the puck out of our zone. It's so frustrating to see our wingers so nonchalant in our zone. They couldn't give a damn if the Leafs gave up a few goals because of their simple mistake.

Take a hit...make the play. There are 2 defenseman and a goalie that gets hung out to dry because our offensive players are lazy or scared.

That is why I think Clarkson and Kulemin could be a great addition to our team.

 

[happyaccident]

I honestly prefer using the LLS stat.

The Leafs have looked like sh** 92.3% of this season.

 

[BIitz]

Turnovers are like ex-wives. The more you have, the more they cost you.

 

[Ari91]

Considering the unnecessary crap that people say about Gardiner, I sure as hell glad that he's the only D man not on that list.

 

[Smif]

I will never care about this useless stat. It's been the same thing for the last five years.

 

[Due North]

These aint fun facts.

These could be called depressing facts.

So true. Thats why this team aint going to make
the playoffs. Just not good enough.

 

[Egoclapper]

My thoughts are the team doesn't care about the puck. Passes 5 feet away from the blade, Kessel pointlessly chipping the puck off the boards and to the other teams defenders with no center support.

Let me say something about advanced stats that applies here. Justin Williams, an advanced stat "superstar" does something I never see our team do. If the kings are changing, he holds onto the puck and circles back. How many times did we dump with no chase and give them an easy entry back into our zone? I know it's the "safe" play, but if you're just dumping the puck and going for a change that means the fresh legs will 90% have to start their shift in their own zone, and a cycle of dump and change begins.

Just watch them and how the handle the puck. The team has no value for the puck. Back on the Kings, watching them against the Preds (2 days ago) and everyone just WANTED that puck. Our team is happy to have the puck, but they don't WANT it.

The Leafs right now are the opposite of what has made the Wings successful for so many years. Cherry brought this up during Coach's Corner, they dump and change, not chase. No puck possession, not nerds and their Corsi.