News Article: FRS NEWS Senators GM Pierre Dorion wants to punch analytics team

BK201

Registered User
Apr 11, 2011
10,815
308
Minnesota is not a good example to use. Jake Allen stole that series.

In Calgary's case, that series could have easily went to 7 if Elliott didn't **** the bed.

Elliot sucks though. I've been saying this since sens but really tried to tell the blues fans too but they got all mad. But he's not great. 1b.
 

starling

Registered User
Nov 7, 2010
10,858
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Ottawa
Using 4-5 games worth of non-adjusted corsi to predict anything is not advanced stats. It's alternative stats, some people like to use to battle their strawman.
 

BatherSeason

Registered User
Jun 16, 2009
6,640
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Look no further than Arizona to see 2hat building a team fully and completely through analytics accomplishes

That team has a long way to grow no matter how they are built. To point to them as an example of why analytics don't work is lame. Half their team is under 25 years old and I don't think any of the draft picks under this regime has even played an NHL game.

You have to understand analytics to appreciate them. This league will never adapt and evolve because all 30 organizations are run by former players or family members of former execs. Have you ever heard any former players/management types that are pro-analytics? They don't even accept them and they actually get irritated and angry when they are even asked about it. If you ran any business and you want to get the most out of your employees, having statistical measurements to enhance your view of that person/employee is not a bad thing, and by no means should you want to "punch our analytics guy"

Funny how when Dorion defends Brassard's production he points to analytics, but when he wants to discuss Boro, he wants to punch analytics in the face. How convenient.
 
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Alf Silfversson

Registered User
Jun 8, 2011
5,717
4,746
Statistically, the Senators aren't in the playoffs. That too is a fact.

How so?

Not enough points?

Not enough wins?

Please elaborate, because there is a very tangible, quantifiable reason why the Sens made the playoffs. They had enough wins and OT/SO points. Those are things that get you to the playoffs.

Now, if some stats guy came to Boucher/Dorion and said "You're winning games but your goal differential indicates that you might be hanging back and lack a killer instinct. Maybe that is something that you should consider going into the playoffs." Would you give that some thought or just say that you wanted to punch him?
 

PeterSidorkiewicz

HFWF Tourney Undisputed Champion
Apr 30, 2004
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Isn't anyone concerned about the culture of workplace violence that Dorion is bringing into the organization? This needs to be addressed.
 
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Upgrayedd

Earn'em and Burn'em
Oct 14, 2010
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Disregarding the validity of the claims I'm not sure if PD is playing games or serious as both these and the ek God comments were strange, confusing and a bit embarrassing.
 

pnewsom

Registered User
Nov 9, 2008
63
1
Disregarding the validity of the claims I'm not sure if PD is playing games or serious as both these and the ek God comments were strange, confusing and a bit embarrassing.

You need to be at the press conferences to see it, but Pierre is quite friendly with the gallery, especially Don Brennan, Bruce Garioch, rest of the writers. He banters with them a bit and says most of this stuff in fun. He is serious about defending his players, but does it in joking manner. Brian Murray did the same too, but with a different sense of humour.
 

Sens Rule

Registered User
Sep 22, 2005
21,251
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Disregarding the validity of the claims I'm not sure if PD is playing games or serious as both these and the ek God comments were strange, confusing and a bit embarrassing.

Actually he was being positive about 3 players on his team. It isn't very confusing.

Karlsson is a god on blades. Boro gets trashed relentlessly by many and Dorion is aware of that and that Boro is sitting so he is being positive about him. Brassard is playing awesome in 2nd half and playoffs and Dorion is praising him.

We are in the 2nd round and playing well. Do you expect the GM to criticize Stone for not playing that well and bash Ceci and talk about the expansion draft while bashing Boro and saying Kelly and Neil are never playing another game? Maybe also take some pot shots at Bryan Murray and Melnyk?

Dorion doesn't think this team sucks. He thinks we have a decent shot to win the Cup this season. And he has assembled by far the deepest team we have ever had. Not the best or most talented but we are healthy scratching really good players. We could deal with multiple injuries if they came. As a GM he must be pretty satisfied with the current roster and coach going into this round.
 

albator71

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Jan 12, 2010
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What makes a great hockey team cannot be explained only by numbers, it's more than that, hockey is a game of passion and you can't measure passion with numbers.

But I do believe that analytic is a very useful tool that can tell you a lot about a player but it can't tell you the character and leadership of that player.

I think if I was a GM I would used a combination of the two analytic and old school scouting, sometimes you have to trust your gut feeling.
 

senators101

Registered User
Jan 17, 2008
10,848
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That team has a long way to grow no matter how they are built. To point to them as an example of why analytics don't work is lame. Half their team is under 25 years old and I don't think any of the draft picks under this regime has even played an NHL game.

You have to understand analytics to appreciate them. This league will never adapt and evolve because all 30 organizations are run by former players or family members of former execs. Have you ever heard any former players/management types that are pro-analytics? They don't even accept them and they actually get irritated and angry when they are even asked about it. If you ran any business and you want to get the most out of your employees, having statistical measurements to enhance your view of that person/employee is not a bad thing, and by no means should you want to "punch our analytics guy"

Funny how when Dorion defends Brassard's production he points to analytics, but when he wants to discuss Boro, he wants to punch analytics in the face. How convenient.

No, he's basically saying you can't rely solely on advanced stats. Brassard didn't produce on the scoreboard, but he was still an effective forward. It's similar to Ryan's last few games in the season, no production but a boatload of chances.

Go look at analytics on a guy like Chris Neil, probably pure garbage, but five years ago, I'm going to war with him in the playoffs anyway.
 

Sens Rule

Registered User
Sep 22, 2005
21,251
73
What makes a great hockey team cannot be explained only by numbers, it's more than that, hockey is a game of passion and you can't measure passion with numbers.

But I do believe that analytic is a very useful tool that can tell you a lot about a player but it can't tell you the character and leadership of that player.

I think if I was a GM I would used a combination of the two analytic and old school scouting, sometimes you have to trust your gut feeling.

Also sometimes it doesn't matter that much whether your 17th or 18th skater has great analytics. Play 8-12 minutes, add a certain something. Boro led the league in PIMs and hits as a 6th D.

I am not saying Boro should play now. We don't appear to need him now. If a series got super physical and a team is taking shots at Karlsson, Turris, Stone left and right. You play Boro. I don't want Smith or Phaneuf to break their hand fighting.
 

Burrowsaurus

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Mar 20, 2013
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Also sometimes it doesn't matter that much whether your 17th or 18th skater has great analytics. Play 8-12 minutes, add a certain something. Boro led the league in PIMs and hits as a 6th D.

I am not saying Boro should play now. We don't appear to need him now. If a series got super physical and a team is taking shots at Karlsson, Turris, Stone left and right. You play Boro. I don't want Smith or Phaneuf to break their hand fighting.

What does PIMs have to do with anything? I never got that even when I was a kid. Unless they're all fights. But I don't see how a bunch of tripping hooking interfereance calls add to a players value.
 

albator71

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Jan 12, 2010
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Also sometimes it doesn't matter that much whether your 17th or 18th skater has great analytics. Play 8-12 minutes, add a certain something. Boro led the league in PIMs and hits as a 6th D.

I am not saying Boro should play now. We don't appear to need him now. If a series got super physical and a team is taking shots at Karlsson, Turris, Stone left and right. You play Boro. I don't want Smith or Phaneuf to break their hand fighting.

I agree with you, right now we are a roll and playing very well so no need to put Boro in, but it's always nice to have that type of player on your team just in case you need him and you know that Boro will come in no matter what and do his job.
 

Upgrayedd

Earn'em and Burn'em
Oct 14, 2010
5,306
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Ottawa
Actually he was being positive about 3 players on his team. It isn't very confusing.

Karlsson is a god on blades. Boro gets trashed relentlessly by many and Dorion is aware of that and that Boro is sitting so he is being positive about him. Brassard is playing awesome in 2nd half and playoffs and Dorion is praising him.

We are in the 2nd round and playing well. Do you expect the GM to criticize Stone for not playing that well and bash Ceci and talk about the expansion draft while bashing Boro and saying Kelly and Neil are never playing another game? Maybe also take some pot shots at Bryan Murray and Melnyk?

Dorion doesn't think this team sucks. He thinks we have a decent shot to win the Cup this season. And he has assembled by far the deepest team we have ever had. Not the best or most talented but we are healthy scratching really good players. We could deal with multiple injuries if they came. As a GM he must be pretty satisfied with the current roster and coach going into this round.

You seem to be confused that I expect him to be negative about the team, I'm all for positive talk but to bring up the Boro thing seemingly unprovoked is strange and really only gave an opportunity for haters to trot out the negative aspects of his game. I felt he did him a disservice and that bothered me.

Ek is amazing and I love how Guy Boucher talks about him positively and to no end...referring to him in the biblical sense should be left to us fans, at least officially, and as a kind of standard rule of being professional from a management perspective in pro sports. In the past EK himself has said he did not care for this type of comparison...being aware of this it's not something I would say I guess is what im saying.
 

Sens Rule

Registered User
Sep 22, 2005
21,251
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No, he's basically saying you can't rely solely on advanced stats. Brassard didn't produce on the scoreboard, but he was still an effective forward. It's similar to Ryan's last few games in the season, no production but a boatload of chances.

Go look at analytics on a guy like Chris Neil, probably pure garbage, but five years ago, I'm going to war with him in the playoffs anyway.

Neil is such a good example. Every coach we had from Martin on would occasionally use him on the PP to screen the goalie and take punishment and go for deflections. Usually because the PP was slumping and the guy whose job to stand in front of goalie wasn't doing their job. Neil was not bad at doing it but it mostly was a few games assignment to the guy not doing his job that if he wants PP time he better pay the price and get in the goalies way or else he is not playing much on the PP.

Many fans here get mad at moves like that. But you need guys like that. There is more to hockey than just points and analytics.

So many got mad at Boro getting 5 or 6 shifts for two games on the top line of the team as a forward. Cameron was trying to teach the team a lesson because they were playing crappy and without intensity or effort. I guess it didn't work and Cameron is not a great coach but compared to the Hamburgler run and this whole season the whole team was playing listless and like crap. You need guys like prime Kelly or Pageau or Boro or Neil or Fisher as examples of the compete level you need. Sure Alfie or Karlsson have that every game but still some teams get in the dumps or depressed or stop caring enough.

Give their jobs to a harder working but less talented player for a little while and they are likely to smarten up.
 

Sens Rule

Registered User
Sep 22, 2005
21,251
73
What does PIMs have to do with anything? I never got that even when I was a kid. Unless they're all fights. But I don't see how a bunch of tripping hooking interfereance calls add to a players value.

It means he is physical. It isn't necessarily a good thing. But coincidental roughing and fighting penalties can sometimes change momentum. And players that take minors often draw them as well.

I am sure Boro is net negative minor penalties by about 10 this season. His hitting is worth killing those penalties.

I am not even saying we should dress Boro. I would not right now. But as a 7th D he is valuable. Especially in the system Boucher has employed this season.
 

Xspyrit

DJ Dorion
Jun 29, 2008
30,708
9,652
Montreal, Canada
Using 4-5 games worth of non-adjusted corsi to predict anything is not advanced stats. It's alternative stats, some people like to use to battle their strawman.

Let's relax here. It's just an example that shows that Corsi is just one little piece of the equation when evaluating a hockey team. Yet, it has been determined that it means possession and some took as far as to determine if a player or a team is good or not. Simple as that

Of course I can't post all I have ever said about hockey in one post, but I have been saying several times before that either side of the argument about analytics that is too extreme is absolutely wrong. Hockey is very complex and involves so many factors and players, that you have to take everything into account to analyze a player or a team. Good luck to those using only stats to do it.

How many times I have read strawman arguments with people using Corsi. That's ironic lol
 

leftwinglocker

Go Knights !
Jul 22, 2010
166
4
What does PIMs have to do with anything? I never got that even when I was a kid. Unless they're all fights. But I don't see how a bunch of tripping hooking interfereance calls add to a players value.

If you're interested in an alternative analytics angle, would be interesting to add up stick infractions (hooking, tripping, slashing) per 60 mins played - often equated with "lazy" play or difficulty with pace of play. My guess is Boro would be far down the list on the team.
 

Vesa Awesaka

#KeepTheSenate
Jul 4, 2013
18,236
25
Look no further than Arizona to see 2hat building a team fully and completely through analytics accomplishes

Eh? Not like Arizona was going to be good either way. They are starting over. Florida would be a better example but they probably would have made the playoffs if they were healthy
 

Alf Silfversson

Registered User
Jun 8, 2011
5,717
4,746
If you're interested in an alternative analytics angle, would be interesting to add up stick infractions (hooking, tripping, slashing) per 60 mins played - often equated with "lazy" play or difficulty with pace of play. My guess is Boro would be far down the list on the team.

He actually has the second most minor penalties on the team behind only Phaneuf, who obviously plays a lot more minutes.

Boro actually had the 9th most minors in the league this year. Of the players above him all of them, except for Tom Wilson, played big minutes. Nobody in the NHL took more holding penalties than Boro.

He doesn't get "lazy" penalties but he gets quite a few "I just got beat and I better take this guy down" penalties.
 

FolignoQuantumLeap

Don't Hold The Door
Mar 16, 2009
31,084
7,399
Ottawa
If you're interested in an alternative analytics angle, would be interesting to add up stick infractions (hooking, tripping, slashing) per 60 mins played - often equated with "lazy" play or difficulty with pace of play. My guess is Boro would be far down the list on the team.

Boro took the 9th most minor penalties in the entire national hockey league this year (32) and 2nd most minors/60. 1 for slashing, 1 for cross checking, 2 for hooking, 2 for highsticking, 3 for interference, 5 for tripping, 6 for holding, and 10 for roughing.

The next most penalized players after Boro (Phaneuf was 2nd in the league) in terms of minors are Smith (28) and Wideman (18). Wideman had the same number of hooks, highsticks, 3 more slashes, 1 holding the stick call and fewer number of every other call across the board.

http://www.espn.com/nhl/statistics/player/_/stat/minor-penalties/sort/minorPenalties/seasontype/2/count/81
 

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