News Article: FRS NEWS Senators GM Pierre Dorion wants to punch analytics team

[Pierre from Orleans]

Dorion's car was one of the ones that Boro pushed out of that snow drift awhile back.

He body checked it

 

[Knave]

I mean... I don't think much of Borowiecki's on ice play but if analytics is the only reason you dump this guy... that's probably swinging too far from intangibles to spreadsheets.

 

[Karl Prime]

Brass was better than his numbers suggested during the season, but by no means would I say he was the team's best forward.

 

[Sens of Anarchy]

Brass was better than his numbers suggested during the season, but by no means would I say he was the team's best forward.

The options were Brass, Burrows, Stalberg or Wingels

 

[pepty]

What does this mean? We are in the second round for the second time in 10 years. How is it getting worse?

I heard the interview live. This is a writer making a mountain out of not just a molehill, but nothing. Dorion has always had this stance re: analytics.

Agreed,it was a joke,a throw away line. The writer is spinning something from nothing.Pierre McGuire says something similar in nearly every broadcast.

 

[BondraTime]

I mean, it should be obvious that advanced stats won't work like they did in baseball. There's a reason they work in baseball. It's a 1 v 1 scenario.

Hockey is nothing even close to that. You step on the ice for 2 seconds and get a shot or shot against and it affects your "advanced stats".

They are useful when used in moderation and for backing up the eye test (even then, eye test should be enough), using them solely to form an opinion is garbage.

Just got here, Go Sens Go!

 

[PoutineSp00nZ]

Look no further than Arizona to see 2hat building a team fully and completely through analytics accomplishes

 

[FunkySeeFunkyDoo]

I mean, it should be obvious that advanced stats won't work like they did in baseball. There's a reason they work in baseball. It's a 1 v 1 scenario.

Hockey is nothing even close to that. You step on the ice for 2 seconds and get a shot or shot against and it affects your "advanced stats".

...

But this isn't an argument that advanced stats can't work in hockey... it is an argument that today's hockey advanced stats aren't very good. To fix them would require people to actually think about and then gather data that is closer to a 1v1 scenario for hockey plays.

I'll freely admit that I haven't delved deeply into today's hockey advanced stats, but I find most of the people who comment about them and express frustration that the hockey establishment haven't embraced them are not all that knowledgeable about stats themselves.

 

[Sens of Anarchy]

Look no further than Arizona to see 2hat building a team fully and completely through analytics accomplishes

How long have they been doing that?

 

[Knave]

But this isn't an argument that advanced stats can't work in hockey... it is an argument that today's hockey advanced stats aren't very good. To fix them would require people to actually think about and then gather data that is closer to a 1v1 scenario for hockey plays.

I'll freely admit that I haven't delved deeply into today's hockey advanced stats, but I find most of the people who comment about them and express frustration that the hockey establishment haven't embraced them are not all that knowledgeable about stats themselves.

You are my spirit animal.

 

[PoutineSp00nZ]

How long have they been doing that?

long enough to show some signs of improvement if it worked.

Analytics have a place. Its not how you build a team

 

[Tragedy]

long enough to show some signs of improvement if it worked.

Analytics have a place. Its not how you build a team

Chayka has been GM for a year. That is now long enough to show signs of improvement? He hasn't even had the ability to get a player hes drafted into the line up

 

[Do Make Say Think]

Boro ain't playing in Game 1.

That's all I need.

 

[BondraTime]

But this isn't an argument that advanced stats can't work in hockey... it is an argument that today's hockey advanced stats aren't very good. To fix them would require people to actually think about and then gather data that is closer to a 1v1 scenario for hockey plays.

I'll freely admit that I haven't delved deeply into today's hockey advanced stats, but I find most of the people who comment about them and express frustration that the hockey establishment haven't embraced them are not all that knowledgeable about stats themselves.

Sure, once we're able to use advanced stats that are relevant and tell the tale of the game.

Now, this is what we are dealing with, this is what I'll criticize.

What kind of 1 v 1 scenarios are there? 1 on 1's? What about if the D's left to dry, flat footed by his teammate? There is too many variables that factor into what caused the 1 v 1 other than the 1 v 1 itself.

It works in baseball because it's Pitcher vs Batter. Those in the field aren't affected by teammates or opposing players. Every play comes from a standstill, only change being runners on the bags.

Hockey has too many variables. 5 others trying to disrupt you in different ways every shift. 4 others with you that directly effect what happens. Changing on the fly in situations that are already occurring. Plays starting at different locations on the ice.

The closest hockey can get to baseballs, is faceoffs.

 

[Nac Mac Feegle]

You don't need fancy stats to see that Boro is a borderline NHLer.

 

[Sens of Anarchy]

So I guess Dorion will want to protect Karlsson, Phaneuf and Boro.

 

[BonkTastic]

This article is Don Brennan-levels of bad, Jesus. Did no one see the original quote, or notice that it was originally in reference to and about how much the team loves Derick Brassard, who is significantly and certainly more of an analytics darling than Boro is? He was using an example about how analytics aren't everything, used Boro as an example, and tried to make a bad joke about it (which, by the way, mission accomplished: joke was indeed real bad)



Way to cherry pick quotes out of context to sell DRAMA! in your headlines (not talking to OP here, talking about the editor/editing manager who wrote the title for the piece). This is either terrible journalism on purpose to get clicks/reads, or the author is 5 pieces short of a 6-piece dinette set. I'm guessing it's the former.

I'm glad that "rag" is in the name of this website, it's entirely appropriate and somewhat prognostic of it's content. I don't even like Borowiecki and would prefer Harper to him in the lineup 10/10 times, but I'll certainly call out a hack for writing hack jobs.

 

[Jorge Garcia]

Agreed. Does he want them to lie to him? Just tell him that Boro is doing just fine?

They say that Boro is a below average player because the statistics say just that. This isn't their interpretation. Statistically he's terrible. That is a fact.

Statistically, the Senators aren't in the playoffs. That too is a fact.

 

[Xspyrit]

I haven't read the whole thread but what I know is that it is probably another board overreaction. Not really a fan of Dorion sharing those thoughts with the media (did he?). I don't see the point throwing some of his staff under the bus. Just replace them if you are unsatisfied with their work. Also, they also probably just said cold straight facts. I could understand why advanced stats, even taken in context would show that Boro is not a great player. But that being said, I think Boro is actually an exception. While he is not very talented, he brings stuff that many other players seem to lack, a lot of grit, physicality and heart. He is tough as nails. But does it mean that he should play right now in the most important time of the season? Not really because Claesson and Harpur are actually quite good.


Something is weird about this story. EDIT : just saw Bonk's post. Yeah maybe it's just awful journalism. I frankly just read it very quickly as fast as possible.

 

[SanderSen]

This article is Don Brennan-levels of bad, Jesus. Did no one see the original quote, or notice that it was originally in reference to and about how much the team loves Derick Brassard, who is significantly and certainly more of an analytics darling than Boro is? He was using an example about how analytics aren't everything, used Boro as an example, and tried to make a bad joke about it (which, by the way, mission accomplished: joke was indeed real bad)

Way to cherry pick quotes out of context to sell DRAMA! in your headlines (not talking to OP here, talking about the editor/editing manager who wrote the title for the piece). This is either terrible journalism on purpose to get clicks/reads, or the author is 5 pieces short of a 6-piece dinette set. I'm guessing it's the former.

I'm glad that "rag" is in the name of this website, it's entirely appropriate and somewhat prognostic of it's content. I don't even like Borowiecki and would prefer Harper to him in the lineup 10/10 times, but I'll certainly call out a hack for writing hack jobs.

Well said. Garbage clickbait.

 

[Xspyrit]

Just would like to point out something about these playoffs to Corsi lovers :

Team CF%
Minnesota*Wild 60.78
Columbus*Blue Jackets 53.86
Washington*Capitals 53.31
Montreal*Canadiens 52.67
Calgary*Flames 51.17
Anaheim*Ducks 50.94
Ottawa*Senators 50.59
Edmonton*Oilers 50.45
Boston*Bruins 49.66
Chicago*Blackhawks 49.52
Toronto*Maple Leafs 49.02
San Jose*Sharks 47.93
Nashville*Predators 47.92
New York*Rangers 47.43
Pittsburgh*Penguins 43.62
St Louis*Blues 43.19

Teams in red are eliminated...

 

[Oddbob]

BondraTime is bang on the money in my opinion with regards to advanced stats. Also, we got on fine for years and years, and had no advanced stats, so why does it need to be so heavily involved, nowadays. What team has had pure success because they relied solely on analytics to win/or form their team?

 

[aragorn]

https://www.fanragsports.com/news/senators-gm-pierre-dorion-wants-punch-analytics-team/

Great response by Dorion & he is exactly right, you can't measure heart with analytics. Yea, Boro isn't Karlsson, we get that, but he breaks up so many plays at the other team's blueline & makes some giant hits that can change momentum instantly. It's a different style of hockey that a lot of people still like to watch, me being one of them & it can change how players play when he is on the ice. Ottawa's got a lot of good depth on defence right now & maybe some options for trades.

 

[Gil Gunderson]

Minnesota is not a good example to use. Jake Allen stole that series.

In Calgary's case, that series could have easily went to 7 if Elliott didn't **** the bed.

 

[Sens of Anarchy]

BondraTime is bang on the money in my opinion with regards to advanced stats. Also, we got on fine for years and years, and had no advanced stats, so why does it need to be so heavily involved, nowadays. What team has had pure success because they relied solely on analytics to win/or form their team?

No team .. Like Bondra said its much better suited for baseball where the situations predictably recur with little variation. The variations in hockey make it very difficult to get any consistency or meaning from the stats the same way.